| Author |
Message |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 906
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 1:28 pm: |     |
B has told me that the OT was Jesus' Bible and Paul's writings were not as reliable.... But he waffled on that depending upon the topic and what amo he was using.... Such a strange thing.... |
Leigh
Registered user
Username: Leigh
Post Number: 113
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 1:31 pm: | |
This is one of my favorite songs that we sing during our worship service at church. The last verse of this song came to my mind as I read the posts on death.
In Christ Alone
In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My Comforter, my All in All
Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save
ëTil on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live
There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory
Sinís curse has lost its grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Bought with the precious blood of Christ
No guilt of life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From lifeís first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
ëtil He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ Iíll stand
|
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 908
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 1:37 pm: | |
I love that song, Leigh! We sang it Easter too! |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1845
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 1:53 pm: | |
Melissa, once again your B. and my mom are very similiar in their understandings of each topic discussed. Maybe we should get those two togethet! LOL! Yes, I have heard since the OT is the Bible jesus used that that is what should be used for us as Christians. It gets into the area of Jesus being our example and not our Saviour. I'm serious when I say this, I was taught very firmly that Jesus is our example and if (got that, IF) He could overcome sin then we should be able to overcome sin, too. As I understand it Jesus was not our Savious at His birth. He became our Savious upon His resurrection. I was firmly taught that Jesus was born fully human just as you and me were. They never got much into the Jesus as Saviour aspect of Christianity, which to my understanding defines Christianity. Also, as I've mentioned previousely there is a lady in my community, a historical Adventist who has a bumper sticker on her car that says, "Jesus kept the 7th day Sabbath. Do you?" Once again implying Jesus is to be our example and by inference denying His being fully God. I think this entire thought process of the SDA's then leads to an underatanding how come many SDA's abhour Communion. It really spreads into all areas of their theology. My parents never even once that I can remember ever stayed for Communion at the SDA church. Usually if they knew it was Communion Sabbath they'd just dirch church but if they didn't know it was Communion Sabbath and they ended up at church the'd leave before Communion. A lot of SDA's do that I've noticed. At the Lutheran the services that Communion is offered are the most packed. It's sure a noticible contrasy. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 397
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 6:00 pm: | |
Adventist apologists love to tell you that Jesus is our example. However, when probing their claim, they quickly decide to exclude Jesus' example in diet, attire, circumcision, non-weekly festal convocations, homelessness, and his prayerful, solemn concern about the acceptance of his spirit before dying on the Cross. If the spirit (soul) is merely the "breath" in one's nostrils that AUTOMATICALLY returns to God at death, as Seventh-day Adventists teach, then why did Jesus and Stephen pray so earnestly about their spirit's acceptance into heaven?
In awe of Calvary,
Dennis J. Fischer |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1847
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 7:43 pm: | |
Becky, i will pray for travel mercies for you while you travel to see your cousin. apw and Colleen, thanks for the inspiring stories. Riverfonz, my son lived in Italy for a year. This was just two years ago. He is still talking about all the dark wine drank over there. he recalls just about everyone walking around even in public drinking wine. Not guzzeling like folks over here do but sipping on the wine bottle all day long. He says its because water is very expensive over there. Funny though that if they catch a person with weed it is an extremely long jail sentence. Don't make no sense to me but I guess that's how different cultures do things. There is no minnium drinking age over there. Of course, as a registured Libertarian I think a minnium drinking age ios unconstintutional. And, also, dealing with dying patients frequently as you do I immagine you get to see and experience all the ranges of loved ones response to that news that their beloved has passed away. Frankly, I think hospice is wonderful. To the living and to the person who is passing on. Dennis, I always like reading your entries so m uch. I learn a lot from you. ASnd, last, Diana, have peace in your heart about your mom. I believe in a fair and a just God and that is enough. I always learn a lot from you, too. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 716
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 9:38 pm: | |
Good points, Dennis. And the thing is, EGW actually states that Jesus is "our example in all things"! And then, as you said, they exclude a lot of things! It makes no sense...
Oh, one more thing they exclude: they don't follow Jesus' example of not tithing.
Jeremy |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1848
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 10:09 pm: | |
Melissa, What is the title of the book you are reading and who is the author? Thanks. And, btw, it does no good to tell my sda loved ones that Jesus told the theif on the cross next to him, "Today you will be with me in paradise" as the sda's put a comma after the word, 'today' to make it seem like Jesus was saying those words that day. That doesn't even make sense. Of course the theif knew he was being spoken to by Jesus on that day. It could logically only mean just what Jesus ment it to mean, that on that day after their physical deaths, TODAY he would be in patradise with Our Lord. The sda's in my life like to make a really super big deal out of those words spoken by Jesus. |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 490
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 10:25 am: | |
There are certain things about the SDA beliefs that make them impossible to talk to about spiritual things -- they have all been coached to respond in particular ways. The statement of Jesus to the thief on the cross is just one example. Of course there are parts of scripture that are hard to cram into their views of things, but if everybody is carefully coached to respond just so, then it will be possible to refute or frustrate anyone telling the SDA some other thing that doesn't fit their doctrinal mold.
Having been coached in all of those while in SDA schools, it was very hard for me to see real truth. I'm sure there are others here who agree with me. I praise God that he loved me enough to bear with me throught all of that indoctrination, to sort of look me in the eyes and keep repeating "real" truth to me often enough that the scales of SDA blindness fell away. The last thing to become clear for me was the "state of the dead." The little enigma that I had to deal with was that my father slipped away with a smile on his face. My dad was a good SDA, but he died with a "you got me there" grin to make the rest of us wonder what had transpired those last seconds of his life. I'm convinced that he was taken from his body, and he recognized that he'd been wrong about the state of the dead just before he passed. That grin was a gift to my father's family.
In Awe of Christ,
Belva |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 147
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 10:35 am: | |
Interestingly enough Susan, Catholics side with the adventists in the placing of that comma. I was reading the punctuation book "Eats Shoots & Leaves" and I came upon this droll paragraph on the subject.
(Referring to the variations of the two verses), "Now huge doctrinal differences hang on the placing of this comma. The first version, which is how Protestants interpret the passage, lightly skips over the whole unpleasant business of Purgatory and takes the crucified thief to Heaven with Our Lord. The second promises Paradise at some later date (to be confirmed as it were) and leaves Purgatory nicely in the picture for the Catholics, who believe in it. ... Of course if Hebrew or any of the other ancient languages had included punctuation (in the case of Hebrew a few vowels might have been nice as well), two thousand years of scriptural exgesis need never have occurred, and a lot of clever, dandruffy people could definitely have spent more time in the fresh air. But there was no punctuation in those ancient texts, and that's all there is to it."
I seriously laughed out loud when I read that. The whole book is perfectly hilarious and filled with that dry humor.
Cheerily,
Hannah |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 250
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 11:37 am: | |
"Eats Shoots & Leaves" is definitely a hilarious book! I read it last year and was laughing constantly. |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 815
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 2:50 pm: | |
Greek didn't use commas because they weren't needed due to the word structure and syntax. We have to add them in English because it isn't always as clear in English which word or clause modifies other words as it is in
Greek. In fact, in Greek, even word order isn't nearly as important as it is in English. It's clear in Greek which words modify other words as well as who is doing the action and to what by the syntax. You can completely rearrange some Greek sentences and they still make sense and mean the same thing (try that with English!).
I'm not a Greek scholar by any means, but as I read the works of Greek experts and utlize the software and other resources available to me, it seems pretty clear what Jesus was saying to the thief on the cross. The Greek doesn't leave room for monkeying around with punctuation like English does. It's clear without it. My best guess is that any SDA minister that actually paid attention in Biblical Languages class knows this.
Chris |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 910
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 8:00 pm: | |
Susan, it's called "The New Testament Documents: Are they reliable" by F.F. Bruce. I got it at Christianbook.com for about $6, if I remember correctly. |
Benevento
Registered user
Username: Benevento
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 11:25 pm: | |
I went to Catholic school through 7th grade, admittedly a long time ago, and things have changed, but when my mother took me out and was taking me to the SDA church the comma was new to
me--I had just figured if Jesus said today, that's the way it was. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 719
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 11:25 am: | |
The New American Bible (a Catholic translation) says:
quote:"He replied to him, 'Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.'" (Luke 23:44 NAB)
Jeremy |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 720
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 11:37 am: | |
Oops, that should read verse 43 of Luke 23, above.
The Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation and the SDA's Clear Word both move the comma.
Jeremy |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 399
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 12:13 pm: | |
Jeremy,
The last sentence in your post above says it all to me. Cults are always trying to reinterpret and/or explain away the Bible in some manner. Their repeated attempts at rewriting sacred Scripture makes one highly suspicious and very weary--even exhausted. Remember, their self-appointed task is to tell us what the Bible never said.
Resting in Him,
Dennis J. Fischer |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1849
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 1:14 pm: | |
At St. John's Lutheran where I attend is a man in his early 70's who was raised super historic SDA. A discussion arose at the table about something and someone asked this man how the SDA believe that. He replied that the Adventists have a dictrine called the Investigative Judgement. No one knew what he was talking about so he told them it was kind-of like purgertory only it is before death and not after death like in the Catholic religion. |
Blacksheep
Registered user
Username: Blacksheep
Post Number: 15
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 2:13 pm: | |
Now, that's a very interesting way to see the IJ. I am sure that comment will put the SDAs up in arms. But, the comparison is so good.
Also, just looking at Jeremy's post above, I for the first time realized that there would have been no reason for Jesus even to use the word "today" with the comma after it. It's like a word out of place to phrase it like that. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 721
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 2:58 pm: | |
Jesus uses the phrase "Truly, I say to you" (or "Verily, I say unto you (or thee)" over and over again, and He always starts saying what He wants to say immediately after that introductory phrase--He never adds the word today, such as "Truly, I say to you today."
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on June 05, 2005) |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1593
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 3:11 pm: | |
Jeremy,
Thanks for making that clear. I remember in SDA schools somewhere, probably in Bible class, hearing about the comma that should be after today. Since becoming a Christian last year, I had forgotten about it.
Jesus did not say anything that needed anyone to interpret for him. We do not need EGW, Baker, or any one else. Thank you God for Jesus. He is awesome.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2087
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 11:19 am: | |
Dennis, I loved your succinct summary of cults: "Remember, their self-appointed task is to tell us what the Bible never said."
That's it in a nutshell!
Colleen |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 150
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 1:42 pm: | |
Colleen,
"Remember, their self-appointed task is to tell us what the Bible never said." And some seem to be doing a great job of it. 
richard |
