| Author | Message | ||
| Becky Registered user Username: Becky Post Number: 25 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hi All, I was reading a few of the things my dad sent me. Every piece of literature I have seen from the SDAs seems to be huge scare tactic ploys to get more money. "The end is coming soon.... your donation will help to save millions of lost souls, won't you send money now now now." It is soooooo sickening. I read in for Adventist official website that their tithes are not supposed to support their church - that they get from extra donations. Their tithes pay for GC salaries etc. Does anyone know where I can find a record of where their tithe goes i.e. how much do these conference heads make??? Where else have they squandered my parents (and countless others') hard-earned cash? | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 |
Ahh, one of the first things that discouraged us about the SDA church was the absolute secrecy of where the money goes. If you know a very knowledgeable accountant,or are one, and have some report from the Review and Herald, or whatever they call it now, there used to be an issue where they published a treasurers report in very fine print.It was pretty obscure. We had a friend who had a PHD in accounting and was on the faculty in the U of Cal. system. He went over it with a fine tooth comb and asked very intelligent questions, and got a response from the treasurer of the GC that was fairly specific to the questions he asked. Nothing further was volunteered. All is not as it seems!! When Des Ford founded his organization, someone asked if his financial records were available to the public. His policy was that anyone who had donated money was intitled to a full report, they did have to aske for it. We thought that was a refreshing change. That is something that you should look for in joining a church. We felt the SDA attitude was that the ignorant masses had no need to know. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 700 Registered: 10-2004  |
Becky, SDA tithe goes to everything from stocks in "sinful" companies (at least by SDA standards), to lawsuits of those who use the SDA name or to keep people from suing them, etc. The SDA web site adventiststewardship.com says:
Robert Sanders of truthorfables.com says:
I believe that includes for defending SDA pastors, etc. who commit rape, sexual abuse, molestation, etc. Jeremy | ||
| Becky Registered user Username: Becky Post Number: 26 Registered: 2-2005 |
Thanks guys, That helps a bunch. It's just sooooo sick! I think I already told you about the friend's brother-in-law that I know. He is severly autistic, and the SDA made him sign a contract - giving 33% of his disability/social security over to them. A relative found out and threatened to sue. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1573 Registered: 3-2004  |
While I was a psuedo SDA in VA, I made out a will and half of it went to my son and the other half to the SDA church. When I decided not to rejoin the church, I decided to change my will. It is in the process of being written up with everything going to my son and zero to the SDA church. I am so glad I did not pay tithe for so long. God had his hand on me and I am so thankful. God, You are AWESOME! Diana | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 258 Registered: 7-2004  |
I have learned more about the finances of non-SDA church organizations where I was a visitor than I could learn as a member of the SDA church. There are no means by which the members of the church can hold the SDA church accountable for how tithe is spent. The SDA member is unable to verify or deny how tithe is used, because the information is kept hidden. The impression given to members is that it pays for the salaries of pastors. One thing that always bothered me was that you could never have a specific breakout of how much went to those pastoring churches and how much went to the bloated bureaucratic structure of the church. What is the ratio of pastors actively leading churches compared to the number of FTE adminstrators within, say, a Union (including all of the administrators at the conference level). What does this ratio look like when the other employment positions supported by tithe (if I am not mistaken, that includes school principles, Bible teachers, and a portion of each elementary teacher salary). | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2005 |
Speaking of money, does anyone know how long pastors need to work for the denomination to be eligible for their pension? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1823 Registered: 11-2002 |
When we lived in Hawaii there was a SDA church in our area. Please remember that the natives in this area are the second most economically deprived people in the United States, falling in line right after the coal miners and those of that region in the Applichalaicha region of West Virginia. most all the adults in this SDA church are illerate and being convinced ther SDA church is right in 100% of what is taught to them from the front of the church and also being 100% that every other religious idea anywhere on the planet is 100% wrong these poor people just do what they are told. And, get this, these people at this little way far out in the jungle SDA church even take up offerings on Sabbath mornings to send money to LLU to be given to the medical school on the pretense that the money will help train missionary doctors and also an offering is taken to be sent to Andrews U. to help ministerial students get scholarships so they can become missionaries and help get people ready for Jesus. I remember sitting in that service and just thinking how sad it was that these extremely poor people, many who live in small one room homes with no indoor plumbing or even electrisity are sending theuir money for that. It's sure too bad. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 392 Registered: 4-2000  |
Benevento, It used to be (probably still is) at least fifteen years to get "GC sustentation benefits" or retirement funds. This would be the lowest benefit category at 15 years. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 393 Registered: 4-2000 |
PS: The service years would need to be consecutive to get benefits at 15 years. --DJF | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2054 Registered: 12-2003  |
BTW, when Folkenberg was being sued (the suit that ultimately cost him his presidency) for a multi-million dollar outstanding debt by a Catholic business partner, the GC finally settled the suit by using Risk Management funds (the church's insurance organization) WTIHOUT even getting advice or clearance from the GC legal department. Keep in mind this was an allegedly personal lawsuit--and the church paid the settlement fee. (Of course, the church was getting kickbacks from Folkenberg's profits--as was the Catholic church from his business partner's profits. There were just a lot of secrets and connections between people that needed to be protected.) Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 349 Registered: 3-2005 |
Folkenberg should have gone to jail, if the reports I read are true. Stan | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 289 Registered: 7-2000  |
Stan, I meant to ask you for your email address last Friday night. You can send it to me at bobh@myself.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2056 Registered: 12-2003 |
They were true--if not comprehensive! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 350 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bob, Thanks for that. I really enjoyed meeting you and hearing your inspiring story. I will be contacting you. Stan | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1826 Registered: 11-2002 |
I haven't a clue to what you all are talking about. What did Mr. Folkenberg do and why? Was it more shady than passing a false id? No, I'm kidding. It's my tacky sense of humor. Nonetheless, what did he do and how much did it cost the faithful SDA's? And, if it cost the SDA's a lot of money did their voluntary contrabutions at the time dramatically decrease? Did he steal something? What year was this? Can I read about this on any website that would have the true story? If so, which one? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 394 Registered: 4-2000 |
Susan, Robert Folkenberg's fiasco involved a lawsuit amounting to about eight million dollars. The lawsuit was brought against the General Conference by his Catholic business partner. The GC Risk Management Services ended up paying about half of this in a lump sum settlement. It was a highly complex partnership where Folkenberg and his Catholic partner benefitted their respective denominations as well. Additionally, both partners were personally enriched in the process. It is important to note that Robert Folkenberg could not have done all this by himself. Thus, this was the reason why the GC legal department was bypassed in the final settlement. Imagine what they would do to a district pastor who violated the GC policies in a financial manner. Truly, the boys upstairs were in these irregularites together. Amazingly, Robert Folkenberg was not given prison time. Somehow he had enough resources to hire a high-profile law firm with $500.00-an-hour attorneys. Despite his serious illegalities, Robert Folkenberg never missed a paycheck from the SDA Church to this day. Obviously, other big boys were involved with him who didn't want to be exposed. History has repeatedly shown that crook's have an unsavory way of protecting each other in time of trouble. All in all, the average SDA in the pew today cannot tell you anything more than I just did. Interestingly, the minutes of the 2000 Toronto GC Session did not once mention Robert Folkenberg--whereas the delegates even sang "Happy Birthday" to Neal Wilson. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 351 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dennis, Thanks for confirming my suspicions about Folkenberg. Yes, he should be wearing an orange prison suit, but he will not be able to fool God, on that day when His verdict is rendered. Stan | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1828 Registered: 11-2002 |
I remember reading a journal called Spectrum. It was not put out by any official SDA organization. I believe it was put out by lay members to address issues confronting the SDA church. Did Spectrum address this Folkenberg issue? If so, how? Is Spectrum still plublished and available? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 395 Registered: 4-2000 |
Susan, Yes, Spectrum magazine is still published (www.spectrummagazine.org). Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 113 Registered: 2-2005 |
Susan, This may shed some light on the Dave Dennis situation. Dennis was in charge of the GC auditing service when he discovered some of Falkenberg's financial indescretions. A smear campaign ensued against him and he lost his job (and I think even his full pension) over it. The GC has said they have so much on Mr. Dennis yet have spent millions to avoid facing him in court. Check it out if you're interested: http://truthorfables.com/david_dennis.htm Heretic | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2004 |
The archive section of the Adventist Today publication chronicled the whole Folkenberg affair. It makes for interesting intrique and sad commentary. Reading the Atoday archive was my first introduction to Colleen Moore Tinker's writing skills and it led me to this site(fwiw).I found that publication quite upfront and straight shooting. Thank-you Colleen. Randy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 352 Registered: 3-2005 |
It seems to me, as I am a subscriber to Adventist Today, that it is quite objective in its reporting. Even though I disagree with most of the articles, you still get a lot of good information. They did a great two-part series on the corruption at 3-ABN. The last issue has an insightful interview with Clifford Goldstein, where I thought I saw some cracks in his armor. Stan | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2005 |
A little of my history trivia and a personal story: Before I was given a district to pastor I served several years as full time Singing Evangelist. During a time I was associated with the Roger Holley (Proselytizing) Team, with Roger's nephew Leighton Holley, who now serves as the Texas Conference President, and former G.C. President, Bob Folkenberg and I were a visitation team. I sang, he played his trumpet. I should have been suspicious of Bob back then for two tell-tale reasons: 1) He drove a Rambler, and 2) one day while visiting while it was sprinkling, once it stopped raining, he kept his windshield wipers running continually, the rest of the afternoon - on a dry windshield! LOL Now the story: During my last pastorate, church members suggested I give them an opportunity to contribute to a fund to be used to pay for cutting a record/tape of my singing. It could be held in a separate fund and ear-marked accordingly. They suggested I explain this before the church body, which I did. Seated in the congregation that Saturday was a General Conference Field Agent visiting the Conference Office, which was adjacent to the church plant. The following day my door bell rang. I answered it to find the Conference President, Treasurer, Ministerial Secretary and this G.C. field agent. The President carried a large note book which proved to be Conference Policy. In short, they said how shocked they were to hear me make such an appeal for "personal funds", how disappointed they were, and how could I not know this was against policy? I owed everyone an apology. Later the President told me I should appear personally before the G.C. Field Agent and personally apologize to him. I was forced to do this. It felt like I was confessing to him and pleading for his forgiveness. I'm not denying I was in error and should have sought counsel before following the enthusiastic tidal wave that was building in my congregation to see me have a recording available to the members and to use in public meetings; however I never .....not EVER....had a Conference President or any Conference officer visit my home to encourage me in my ministry or to pray with me and my family, or to minister personally to us; but this infraction of the "holy rules" had crossed the line and "offended" a General Conference offier! How dare I ! To me it was a case of "majoring in minors" as Bill Quigley used to say. The "SAD" Church is truly a church known for it's RULES! JWD | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 474 Registered: 7-2004 |
JWD, You know a lot of people that I have heard my parents talk about. My dad was in numerous Conference and Union administrative positions. Would you mind emailing me and sharing more info in private? If so, Colleen (formeradventist@yahoo.com) can tell you how to get in touch with me. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2062 Registered: 12-2003 |
JWD, Thanks for sharing some of your story. Unfortunately, tampering with the money seems to be the Achilles heel of corporate Adventism. Colleen |
