| Author | Message | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 128 Registered: 2-2005 |
Dd and Lindylou, great insights. I'm not all the way to full acceptance, but something that has helped me is to realize our situation in Adventism is not a whole lot different from a background in Judaism. Imagine hearing the gospel for the first time as a Jew and thinking to yourself "this sounds too good to be true--my sins are forgiven, just like that?" The joy that comes from freedom in Christ is surely intensified for those of us who've been bound by the chains of legalism. It also helps to hear what the apostle Paul said about his own upbringing in legalism as the "Pharisee of Pharisees":
We must at some point consider our legalistic background as garbage, so that we may have Christ only, becoming one with him. Greg | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2010 Registered: 12-2003  |
So true, Greg, Lindylou, and Dd. Your list of steps to move on, Dd, are really quite amazing--they outline almost exactly what I realize we did as we finally began to actually LEAVE. We weren't following any type of plan, but God led us through those steps. I can't overemphasize how important it is to become involved in a Christian church, even if you feel they "don't understand" what you're going through. You're right: they dont'. Growing in Jesus, though, can happen even if they don't understand. Places like this forum, personal connections with other formers, etc., are essential because we CAN understand and encourage each other in ways only we can do. (Again, it's much like leaving an abusive family.) But the body of Christ is an amazingly healing place to be--and you have no way to know that until deciding to immerse yourself. Talking to our pastor(s) has also been important, and God has further provided contacts with lay people who ask questions or get to now us and thereby begin to understand what Adventism. God, I am convinced, often arranges these connections. for example, Richard became part of a men's Bible study led by a man--a physician at Loma Linda who graduated from LLU but who's never been Adventist--and it turns out this man is now an elder at church. Richard's talks in Bible study have helped several men to understand Adventism in new ways--and also to understand the new covenant in ways they hadn't seen it before. Same with my women's Bible study. I'm often able to explain to the leaders during our prep meetings how any Adventists in their groups (and there are quite a few, actually) would understand certain passages, and how they can explain those passages so an Adventist would understand the meaning of the text. God does redeem those years the locusts ate--but He doesn't do it in advance. We have to walk into those choices/places of growth and fellowship, and God leads us as we're willing to take the steps he guides us to take. Remember the Jordan River? The waters didn't part until the priests put their feet in the water. God's leading is amazing. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 314 Registered: 3-2005 |
Excellent points everyone! Greg, that text in Phil. 3 has been a favorite of mine as well. I recently picked up a brand new translation of Luther's commentary on the book of Galatians in modern English published by Crossway Books, and edited by J.I. Packer and Alister McGrath. I had some time today while sitting on the beach to leaf through the book, and it is powerful! And speaking of the bondage and power of legalism, I was interested in what Luther had to say about Gal. 3, with regard to the bewitching power, "Who has bewitched you?" Here is a sample paragraph from page 121: "Paul uses this word bewitched in contempt of false apostles, who so vigorously urged the doctrine of the law. He says in effect, 'What a devilish bewitching is this! As the senses are perverted by bodily witchcraft, so people's minds are deluded by this spiritual witchcraft.'" In Luther's unabridged edition from the Kregel reprint series, there is a whole section about sorcery and witchcraft railing against the Papacy, and the Anabaptists, with regard to legalism, and he clearly spells out the demonic nature of all who twist the gospel in this way! Stan | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 129 Registered: 2-2005 |
Stan, you're making some very interesting points. I recently picked up a copy of a modern English translation of Luther's commentary on Galatians, published by Revell. I think mine's been edited to remove most of the references to the Papacy you describe. I'm going to type in a few paragraphs from the commentary on Galatians 3:1. For those following this thread, Luther says someting in this passage that's worth the read. Also keep in mind that this was written in the 1500s, explaining the use of words like "sorcery" and "witchery". I think it's also useful to realize Luther is railing against the Catholic church, yet there is a message here for all who subvert the gospel. Italics are provided for emphasis.
I don't know about you, but after reading this I want to claim the promises of Romans 8:38-39: "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Greg | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 130 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hi everyone, I'm posting this at the request of my friend Ane, who will be joining this forum soon. She has been following this thread and wanted to share her insights. From my contact with her, I know we will all be blessed by her participation here. Greg --- My 10 year journey out of Adventism has been a mental battlefield! At times I felt so much turmoil I thought I was going to explode. Recently the turmoil was actually driving me back toward Adventism, because I thought if I went back, maybe I would find relief from it. But once you discover truth you canít move backwards! Then I was annonyed because other former SDAs were experiencing total peace in their journey and I was a wreck. It was by observing the serenity of other formers that I realized, they were actually being obedient, I wasnít! I was still sitting on the fence. Here is what has been pivotal for me! My turmoil stemmed from my stubbornness to get off of the fence! I was waiting for everything to feel ìrightî before I felt like it was okay to start acting on it. Forgiveness is an example of that, if we wait till forgiveness feels right, will we ever really get around to it? What I realize now is, God was waiting for me to exercise faith and act on all the Biblical correction Heíd been revealing to me. He expected me to start acting on it, even if it didnít feel right. After I made the decision to be obedient and act inspite of my feelings, I was immediately flooded with the most amazing peace and confidence, I never imagined possible. God was just waiting to see my obedience, before He was going to remove my turmoil and give me the answers. Since then big pieces of the puzzle have shifted into place, and Iím His! Ane | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1545 Registered: 3-2004  |
Ane, I m looking forward to when you post things yourself. You are fortunate to have Greg as a friend to post it for you. I know you will be reading this, as Greg said you have been following this thread. So welcome and doesn't it really feel good to be off the fence. When I accepted Jesus I felt this burden, that I did not realize I had, roll off my shoulders. No matter what I have been through since then, Jesus has been with me and my life is peaceful. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 316 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ane, That is a wonderful testimony. Praise God, He is faithful! That mental turmoil you talked about is part of what Paul in Galatians 3:1 talks about in being bewitched by the power of sectarianism and legalism, and in your case, experienced in the SDA system. It will be great to be hearing more from you. Greg, I appreciate your Luther quotes you posted. But, do you believe only because it was in the 15th century, that Luther was overusing the words sorcery and witchcraft? I am becoming more convinced that a system like SDA which has such a bewitching influence on people like Ane, myself, and all of us on this forum, that Luther was truly on to something. That is why I don't like these new editions of Luther's Galatians, because they sanitize what he really said. If you get a chance to get the 1979 copyrighted version published by Kregel publications, you would be interested in what he really said about that passage in Gal. 3:1. I think the new versions wanted to take out his anti-Catholic railings. But he also rails against the Anabaptists, (which were in many ways like SDAs, in that many of them kept the Sabbath on Sat.--which he also condemned), but he likened their legalism to spiritual witchcraft, as it is mental and spiritual manipulation in the very worst way according to him. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 679 Registered: 10-2004  |
I am convinced that such an intricate system that keeps people in bondage like the SDA cult, couldn't have been designed just by human minds. I think the SDA church should come with a warning label that says, "Designed by Demons." Jeremy | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 459 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ane thank you for sharing your thoughts with us through Greg. You said it all. It is all about the power of Jesus in our lives and leaving the trying on our own power behind! I am looking forward to the day you will post regularly. Greg and Stan, Thank you for sharing the Martin Luther quotes. I am looking forward to summer and staying home with my kids. You guys are giving me great food for thought. Thank you everyone for this great thread. | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 131 Registered: 2-2005 |
Stan, With the open practice of sorcery and witchcraft during Luther's time, I'm sure he drew upon them to make his points more forcefully. I believe it is dangerous to be too dogmatic about any human's writings without asking what the Bible says. This is precisely the trouble with EGW's teachings--they've been taken as truth without careful scrutiny. Luther's impact on Christianity can't be underestimated, but he said things about Jews, for instance, that I disagree with completely. Whether the distinctive Adventist doctrines are from demonic or human origin, it doesn't really matter. If these teachings contradict the Word of God, they are wrong. Furthermore, our witness as a community would be much stronger if we expressed genuine love for Adventists in everything we write here, regardless of where we think their beliefs originated from. Put another way, God asked the Israelites to march on Jericho with a shout and the sounding of trumpets, not by a direct assault with battering rams. God showed the world that bringing down those walls was his work, not theirs. By demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22) and not provocation (Gal. 5:26) in our advancement of the gospel, we won't confound the work of that Spirit by hardening the hearts of those who are listening. Bottom line, I'm content to let God's Word speak for itself in 1 Timothy 4:1-4 without adding any more fuel to the fire. Greg | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 317 Registered: 3-2005 |
Greg, I apologize if something I said in my post above was too strong. Actually, I agree wholeheartedly with what you just posted. I was not attributing SDA to demon possession, or that necessarily everything came from demons. I believe we have to be very careful about overstating things, but at the same time we need to recognize the true nature of Adventism, and what it has done to people. Luther was actually being sophisticated in his application of the term sorcery: Here is another quote from him: "Not only does the devil bewitch people in this obvious way(he was talking about obvious witchcraft as the term is usually thought of in the prev. paragraph), "but also in a subtler and much more dangerous one, in that he is a very clever worker. Thus Paul applies the bewitching of the senses to the bewitching of the spirit. By this spiritual witchcraft, that old snake bewitches not our senses (like in oobvious witchcraft), "but our minds with false and wicked opinions; and these opinions are taken to be true and godly by people who are bewitched. So great is this sorcerer's malice and his desire to harm that he deceives not only people who are proud and complacent, but even those who profess true Christianity. To tell the truth, he sometimes attacks me so fiercely and oppresses me with such heavy thoughts that he utterly obscures my Sviour, Christ, from my sight. There is not one of us who is not often bewitched by false ideas; that is, we all fear, trust, or rejoice when we should not, and we sometimes think other than we should about God." Luther, with all of his faults, was a true Bible scholar in that he knew the original languages, and he jumped on this term bewitched that Paul used, to illustrate how systems such as the Papacy, and the anabaptists--who had many of the same beliefs of SDAs--are systems which spiritually manipulate people, and has a true bewitching influence on people. Even though I am 20 years out of SDA, I still have a lot of the effects of what a system of legalistic bondage does to an individual. I would like to do more research as to this term bewitched in the Greek really meant, as I am no Greek scholar, but I believe that Gal. 3:1, does have important implications. Maybe, others have further insight on this. Stan | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 132 Registered: 2-2005 |
Stan, I owe you an apology, because the last part of what I wrote was more in response to what Jeremy said about the label "Designed by Demons." Ravi Zacharias likes to quote Malcom Muggeridge's response to hearing Billy Graham speak, saying, "Nice fellow, but not subtle enough for me." We could use a little more subtlety in our eagerness to show the errors of Adventism doctrine. Greg | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 796 Registered: 7-2003  |
Here's some info on "baskaino" or "bewitched": baskaino [See Stg: G940] baskaÌno, fut. baskano. To bewitch as with the eye, to cast an evil eye. A Greek commentator on the work of the poet Theocritus observes that the noun b·skanos means one who with his eyes kills or destroys. Superstitious people believed that great harm might result from the "evil eye" or from being looked upon with envious and malicious stares. BaskaÌnō and its deriv. are frequently used in the Class. Gr. authors for envy, and the Sept. and Apocryphal writers apply the words with the same meaning. In the NT, it means to utter foolish babble, i.e., to mislead by pretenses as if by magic arts, to bewitch (Gal. 3:1). Syn.: exÌstemi <G1839>, translated "bewitch" in Acts 8:9, but really meaning to confuse, amaze; mage™o <G3096>, to practice magic, use sorcery. óComplete Word Study Dictionary, The | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 321 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thank you Chris. That word sounds pretty strong. Greg, Thanks again, and I appreciate your response and valid concerns about our rhetoric. Stan | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 105 Registered: 2-2005 |
Greg, Your thoughtful post above is well taken. Lately I've had a chance to reflect on the process that I've been working through for these last 6 months of study which include these stages of grief you describe so well. Through this process I find that I've come to a key realization. Perhaps I should quote a passage that was pointed out to me by one of my closest friends that has helped me to see this: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved." (Eph. 1:3-6, NASB) Believe me when I say that I completely understand why anyone would feel angry and betrayed by a religion or church leaders who kept them enslaved for untold years to an antequated, legalistic system that completely misses the point of the gospel thus denying Christians of true joy in Christ. I've been there. But here's the thing that hit me like a speeding train: God really is sovereign! Growing up Adventist was His plan for me even before the creation of the world and this is fact! The above passage in Ephesians helped me to see this. I may not fully understand why or like the fact that I had to miss out in full joy in Him for most of my life, but the truth is that in the overall scheme of things it really doesn't matter. This has been God's plan for me up until this point and I can't question His will. I look back and see the leading of the Holy Spirit and by this I am humbled and awed. In many ways I have come to rejoice in the fact that I have grown up in the Adventist church. I met the love of my life there. I have cultivated many friendships there that will be in place for life regardless of what church I attend. As a child of a legalistic system I feel that I have a unique perspective and appreciation of grace and the covenants that some lifelong evangelicals may take for granted. Having just recently really met the true Jesus and felt the changing power of His grace for the first time I have a desire to share this message of love with as many people as possible, a thirst that may not have been there otherwise...who knows? I guess my point is that we don't know why God's plan for us was to have gone through these experiences in Adventism, but regardless, that was His plan. With the help of Jesus, it's our job to seek out this purpose and fulfill the mission that we were called to do (whatever that may be) in a positive way that will lead others to the same joy we're now experiencing in Christ. Praise God that He works in ways through us and has plans for us that only He understands. Heretic | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 111 Registered: 2-2003 |
The stages of grief that you posted several days ago (I am catching up, been out of town) Greg, could have described what I went through. Especially the bargaining part. I thought that I could be an evangelical Adventist! But God had better things planned if I would only trust him and step out of my comfort zone. Here are the lyrics to a song that is played frequently on Christian radio that came to my mind after reading this thread. The Voice of Truth by Casting Crowns Oh what I would do to have The kind of faith it takes To climb out of this boat I'm in Onto the crashing waves To step out of my comfort zone Into the realm of the unknown where Jesus is And He's holding out His hand But the waves are calling out my name And they laugh at me Reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed The waves they keep on telling me Time and time again. "Boy, you'll never win!" "You'll never win!" Chorus: But the voice of truth tells me a different story The voice of truth says, "Do not be afraid!" The voice of truth says, "This is for My glory" Out of all the voices calling out to me I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth Oh what I would do to have The kind of strength it takes to stand before a giant With just a sling and a stone Surrounded by the sound of a thousand warriors Shaking in their armor Wishing they'd have had the strength to stand But the giant's calling out my name And he laughs at me Reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed The giant keeps on telling me Time and time again. "Boy you'll never win!" "You'll never win!" But the stone was just the right size To put the giant on the ground And the waves they don't seem so high From on top of them lookin' down I will soar with the wings of eagles When I stop and listen to the sound of Jesus Singing over me I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth Leigh | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 342 Registered: 3-2005 |
Heretic, Thank you for your post. You said it very well. It is looking back through my retrospectoscope, that I now rejoice and am thankful for my SDA background. Leigh, Thanks for sharing the words of that song. It really gives me strength to start my day. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 900 Registered: 7-2003  |
Please forgive the ignorance and rambling nature of this question, as I've never been an SDA, and it certainly may sound harsh in terms of the recent conversations about rhetoric towards adventism and the corresponding criticism of Rick Warren and his PDL book. I have been reading the book someone linked in one of the recent posts by EBJones "Why you should not be a 7th day adventist". Though I've heard it in some other venues as well, I'm continually amazed that it seems the foundations, core, beginnings of adventism never comprehended or taught the gospel. The quotes Jeremy frequently posts, and those written in the booklet I'm currently reading, plus those I've read on my own continually affirm to me not little errors in a single book, but huge, gross errors in essential doctrines in almost everything I've read. On one string, "we" freely roast a man/book because of it's lack in one respect or another, but on another string we want compassion towards a religion that does the same thing and has for a LOT of years. I keep hearing that the SDA church is changing, or it's not really changing, it's just getting more sophisticated about its methods... Is there any point in time that this religion has been completely Christian? Or as it seems to me, did it start in complete heresy, and has waxed and waned its way towards orthodoxy through the years...but still has not arrived in essentials...such as the gospel being universally taught Biblically? To me, and I don't have the emotional ties, so it is probably much easier for me to be "insensitive" without realizing it, the religion is wrong. Regardless of the sincerity of the people (which we haven't acknowledged when attacking those who find benefit from PDL), the "prophet" of the church proclaimed/proclaims heresy in her original form (and I realize the church has doctored many of her writings in modern years, but they certainly haven't hit everything). Though I see, at least in B, more orthodoxy than in some of these old writings, I am still not convinced he is a Christian ... much as some question whether people can be lead to Christ by Rick Warren. Maybe because of how it impacts me, but I see adventism as a much greater evil than PDL and it's temporary popularity. It is hard for me (and maybe a sin...I don't know) for me to have compassion or empathy for a religion that routinely proclaims a weak or non-existent gospel and has a long history of doing so. If we want to call a spade a spade (as it seems with PDL), why not with EGW and adventism? Please forgive me if it sounds like I'm rambling, but I'm really trying to comprehend what I perceive as two standards...one for the popular, non-SDA(s) and another for Adventism/EGW. If we're going to challenge Rick Warren for his use of scripture and attack how he represents the gospel, to the point of questioning whether he is really a Christian (either implicitely or explicitely), why do we put on kit gloves when handling adventism/EGW? I've been pretty frank about this passage in 1 Tim 4 with B. No where does scripture say I'm following demons to worship on Sunday or to think I've been created for a purpose. But it's pretty plain that denying foods and forbidding marriage is a doctrine of demons. As I said, and continue to try to check personally, I know I don't have the emotional ties to the religion. It has not had any positive impact in my life. I have no good experiences or warm fuzzies with which to reference it. So, I know I am very biased in my perspective of the religion, where I am more defensive for Christians being attacked (tending to give the benefit of the doubt) until proven differently ...as B has been very critical of ALL Christian leaders from Billy Graham to David Jeremiah to Michael W Smith for making too much money on his songs. Does anyone else see this dichotomy or is it just me? I'm really not trying to be critical. I recognize this in myself and my own responses on the different topics. I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed...especially when we don't want to be too harsh on adventism, but other Christian leaders are fair game. I'm sure I could be all wrong, but tell me gently  Leigh, I love that song ... I'm sure B thinks it was written about adventism.... | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 144 Registered: 1-2003  |
Melissa, I just noticed this was your #900 post. A very quick response to your comment, we all need to be careful before we condemm or past judgement on others. I've read Rick Warrens book but never heard him speak. I know his writings have been a great blessing to many. Some have been upset because he does not cover all facets of the gospel. Few books do and it is only as we read and pray and ask for the Spirits leading in our lives that we are led into all truth. Even in the Bible itself we find the individual books of the Bible complement each other and make up the whold. His popularity is not an issue with me. As someone else mentioned some of the great Christian writers of all time have had periods of great popularity. Rather than tear down and be critical let's hold each other up in prayer. Even those who have not offically left the SDA church deserve that much. I know I've said it before but it is really tiring to always be around the negative. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 696 Registered: 10-2004 |
Melissa, Thanks for your post. I do agree that we should call a spade a spade. And as you mentioned about 1 Timothy 4, the Bible does say that Ellen G. White was herself taught by demons ("things taught by demons"--vs. 1). My comment about demons really shouldn't be offensive to SDAs when their own prophet herself knew and wrote that her work was either "of God or of the devil" and that there was no "halfway" in the matter. They should be glad that I believe her statement! But more seriously, yes, I do think that the truth about Adventism needs to be known--and I am going to warn people about the true origin of SDAism. Melissa, you wrote:
No, the religion has always been a false religion--it has never been a Christian church. The only move that they have made towards "orthodoxy" is in giving official "lip-service" to the Trinity (while a lot of SDAs don't even believe in the orthodox understanding of the Trinity), and in making their doctrines sound more orthodox while not changing a thing. Jeremy |
