| Author | Message | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 141 Registered: 6-2001 |
The above title is a DVD produced by Doug Batchelor that both sides of my husband's family have been trying to get me to watch, so tonight I finally sat down and watched it. Has anyone else heard of it or seen it? It must be some sort of "proselytizing" (I love that word!) tool, since it never mentioned the Sabbath or Ellen White. The acting was super cheesy. I have never seen Batchelor before, and I was curious about him after the recent discussion mentioning him. Here are some of my thoughts about him personally and what he had to say. First everything he said was treated as absolute truth. Nothing was presented as opinion or speculation leaving no room for argument. The idea that there may be other possible theories was never even suggested. I also was struck with the disconnect between what he actually said and any logic or sources he used to reach his conclusions. He used very little attribution to prove his points, and what Biblical verses were brought in weren't even read by him. He is like Ellen White in that it seemed he expects us to listen with open ears, unquestioningly accepting what he says. As you can imagine, that is not what I did. :-) I can divide up what he said into a few basic categories. I would be interested in knowing which of these items below are standard Adventist doctrine, in case this comes up in conversation. 1. Points that disagree with the Bible. The main one in this category is he said the new Jerusalem would descend upon an old desolate earth after 1,000 years to be viewed by sinners having risen from their graves. After they were subsequently consumed by falling brimstone, the world would be made beautiful again. That is the exact opposite of Revelations 21 where it says the new Jerusalem would descend upon the new earth. 2. Points that were made using information not in the Bible. He said Satan was disguised as a messenger of God when he tempted Jesus. That is possible, but not in the Bible. He used this point to prove Satan would appear as Jesus in the end. He also said the saints that survived the Tribulation would be surounded by rainbows. (He had a nice visual to go along with that.) That is so extra-Biblical it is crazy, but he said it with the same amount of solemnity as he said everything else. 3. Points that are not exactly in the Bible, but could be construed from the Bible. He said the sinners from all time would bow and worship Jesus shortly before they were consumed. That is mentioned in Phillipians 2, but a time isn't given. Batchelor didn't even mention Phil 2 in this discussion or any other verse. The whole idea of saints looking through the books during the Millenium is obviously not spelled out in the Bible, but no one really knows what is going to happen during the Millenium especially when the Bible says the saints are going to rule and judge. 4. Stuff he said that matched up with what the Bible says. He said the world would end with Jesus coming back. Before that, Tribulation will come. Christians will go to Heaven. The scripture that he quoted was the word of God (NKJV). That's about it. What was kind of funny is during the program clips were shown of him probably a few years ago obviously wearing a toupee. Either that or his hairstyle was really bad back then and he lost his hair really fast. (He is bald in this presentation. What hair he has is shaved.) Anyway, this is my Doug Batchelor experience. Finally, Hannah | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 248 Registered: 7-2004  |
Points 1, 3 and 4 are standard SDA beliefs. I've never heard of Point 2 before. | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 |
Years ago I read either an autobiography or a biography of Doug Batchelor. He came from a wealthy family,lived in a cave for a while. then joined the SDA church. It seemed to me he always lived on the "fringes" so I decided not to listen to him or read anythng he wrote. When I visit some SDA relative they have 3ABN running about 24/7 and he is on it frequently and they think he is wonderful. I will pay more attention to him, and hopefully kindly point out where he is not Biblical--they just might listen to that! Worth a try. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1546 Registered: 3-2004  |
My Mom gave me that biography about Batchelor. I think I still have it around here some where. So that is the "Doug Batchelor". You can tell it did not make much of an impression on me as I did not remember I had that book. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 678 Registered: 10-2004  |
EGW teaches point 2A, and if he said point 2B so dogmatically, then she probably says that, too. Jeremy | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 458 Registered: 7-2004 |
Benevento, Good to "see" you here - Welcome! I am looking forward to "hearing" more about you. | ||
| Lindaflugel Registered user Username: Lindaflugel Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2004 |
My mom was an Adventist when she died. Four months later my Dad, a staunch Baptist believer, also died. Would you believe that Adventists came to Dad's funeral and handed that DVD out free to many attendees!!! I haven't watched mine yet, I think I'll throw it away...the gall of those people is incredible. sparrowchild | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 319 Registered: 3-2005 |
Doug Batchelor reminds me of either a used car salesman, or a snake oil salesman. I sometimes question whether he really believes the things he is saying. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1547 Registered: 3-2004 |
Sparrowchild, The gall of handing out those DVDs at your Dad's funeral. That is worse then sending me tithe envelopes when I have not been to that church for over a year. Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1548 Registered: 3-2004 |
Benevento, Sorry, I did not welcome you when I read your post above. I truly am glad you are here. Let us know more about you. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 320 Registered: 3-2005 |
Welcome Benevento to FAF! Stan | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 91 Registered: 12-2004 |
My understanding is that the DVD you mentioned is/was and intro to the Prophecy Code meetings that were/are being held. Haven't had any around our part of the world, but wow, ... Why not, as a church, come boldly and proclaim the gospel and what you believe to be the truth? Why hide behind false advertising and "sneakery". John McArthur wrote a book titled "Ashamed of the Gospel: When the Church Becomes Like the World" the back of the book cover has this dialogue: "Everywhere there is apathy. Nobody cares whether that which is preached is true or false. A sermon is a sermon whatever the subject; only the shorter it is the better" Charles Haddon Spurgeon. McArthur adds his view-- The signs of compromise are all around us: Numbers have become more important than the message. Churches are offering up "Showtime" religion instead of the "Old Time" religion. Pastors have turned to the marketing industry to help them draw people in rather than relying on the sovereign power of God. Until all that changes - until we return to our calling to go into all the world and preach the Gospel without shame- the Church is in danger of losing its impact on society. ------------------------ I am struck by the fact that many Adventist pastors are attending Bill Hybels Willowcreek seminars in hopes finding the secret of attracting people back to church again. You can't just treat the symptoms, you must go to the root cause. There is no preaching of the gospel without the nails of emphasis supplied through EGW. Trickery, false advertising, and feelings of persecution guide many in the church to make weak the power of the gospel and almost apologize for what they believe. Honestly I don't really remember a time in my life when I was proud of my church. We all grimaced when someone or something associated with the church got in the news (WACO, etc) and we celebrated with the successes of Barry Black or Clifton Davis. There is no meat. I believe that the Adventist church is so focused on its unique doctrines that it has become ashamed of the gospel and doesn't (won't or thinks it isn't important) preach the gospel. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1549 Registered: 3-2004 |
What I have seen since not rejoining the SDA church is as you say above. It is not the Willow Creek format of service that will draw and keep people, it is the message that is preached. The format does not really matter if the true Gospel of Jesus Christ is being preached. When Jesus is preached it draws people who are thirsty for Him. Diana | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2004 |
Goldenbear, It is good to here from you again. The last 3 paragraphs of your post, mirror my experience and impressions. You just can't dress up bad news to make it palatable. The beauty of the Gospel is its simplicity, it sells itself because it is good news. Fairways and Greens,Randy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 322 Registered: 3-2005 |
Goldenbear, I appreciate what you said about Willow Creek and Bill Hybels. The same thing can be said about Rick Warren, at Saddleback in Orange County, and his best selling book, "The Purpose Driven Life". There is real compromise of the pure gospel in these mega-churches, with their slick marketing, and catering to the "seeker sensitive" mentality. Just give me the uncompromised gospel without all these uniquely "American" slick marketing techniques. Verse by verse teaching of scripture is the greatest need today, and this is exemplified so well by the Calvary Chapel movement under the direction of Chuck Smith. Even though I don't agree with him on several scriptural points, they sure have the right idea when it comes to Bible teaching and music of praise and worship. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2019 Registered: 12-2003  |
Benevento, welcome to the forum! We're eager to know more about your story! Colleen | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 260 Registered: 7-2000  |
Riverfonz, both "Flying Lady" (Diana) and I happen to belong to mega-churches that "cater to the seeker-sensitive." Please don't generalize about whether the Gospel is preached and taught in them until you have personally attended some of these churches! | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 798 Registered: 7-2003  |
I am a very conservative evangelical Christian (some might call me a "fundamentalist" because of my defense of the innerancy of scripture, the objective propitiation of the atonement, and Jesus being the only way to salvation). I preach at our church every couple of months and I can tell you that I preach the straight Gospel to the best of my abilities. I strive not to soften, soft peddle, or conform the Gospel to the culture. I believe our head pastor also preaches the true Gosple. Never the less, we set out with a mission to reach people in an underchurched area that don't know Jesus. I certainly found some of Warren's insights on the unchurched to be helpful in doing this. I have also found the Purpose Driven Life to be a helpful training tool for developing new disiciples. I have led a small group using this book to structure the discussion and study of scripture and this samll group resulted in two people committing to Christ. I have personally helped lower a dozen people into the water of baptism and have seen my pastor baptize at least another two dozen in the the last 2 1/2 years (10 just this Sunday). And we're not leaving these folks in Christian infancy, but helping them grow as disciples and in the knowledge of Jesus and His Gospel. This church was only planted 2 1/2 years ago by about 10 of us and we have already had to build a new building that just openend this Sunday with an attendance of 342. People are hungery for the Gospel! I do not say this to tout numbers. I am merely trying to say that souls are being brought to Christ, the Christ of the Bible. Could this be done without The Purpose Driven Life? You bet! It's a God thing, not the result of any book or guru. But I will say it is helpful for lay pastors like myself to have these types of tools to help us learn how to disciple people from others who have had more experience. Education from Bible based sources is not a bad thing. Anything that is merely a formula without the power of the Spirit is of little value. Anything that is allowed to comprimise the Gospel is wrong. I have no doubt that many have done this in an effort to create numbers. My personal experience though is that Warren is more interested in wining souls than racking up numbers and while a person might take or leave some of his insights it doesn't seem reasonable to completely dismiss them. While I am not about defending Warren by any means, he's just a guy like you or me after all, I do want to be fair. I would appreciate having a quote from any of his books that clearly compromises the Gospel. I think before accusing anyone of compromising the Gospel it would behoove us to produce some sort of objective proof. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 799 Registered: 7-2003 |
Since we're on the subject. Rick Warren's Saddleback Church recently hosted a large celebration at Angel Stadium of 25 years of ministry. A declaration of commitment was read together by the worshippers in attendance. I found it inspirational and thought you might as well. May we all be so completely sold out for God.
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| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 384 Registered: 5-2002 |
Raven, the rainbow reference is from Ellen White herself. "With shouts of triumph, jeering, and imprecation, throngs of evil men are about to rush upon their prey, when, lo, a dense blackness, deeper than the darkness of the night, falls upon the earth. THEN A RAINBOW, shining with the glory from the throne of God, spans the heavens and SEEMS TO ENCIRCLE EACH PRAYING COMPANY. The angry multitudes are suddenly arrested. Their mocking cries die away. The objects of their murderous rage are forgotten. With fearful forebodings they gaze upon the symbol of God's covenant and long to be shielded from its overpowering brightness." {Mar 278.3} (emphasis mine) |
