| Author | Message | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2004 |
My pastor had a great series (and is writing a book) on Love and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The basic premise is that Satan tempted Eve not by the fruit, but by getting her to believe that she was not complete without the special knowledge that the fruit would give. And it DID give her more 'information', she was now to become aware of evil, etc. Basically the analogy is that when one looks for life (fulfillment, love, security, etc) at the 'tree' of anything other than total dependence on God, they experience a lack. Because only God has unlimited supply. For example, someone gets 'life' from believing they have the 'truth' - it becomes their identiy, they try to eat it up but are never filled - AND they have to make sure THEY have the truth, no one else, because otherwise someone else is eating up their supply of 'life'. So they end up putting more and more layers to the rules and definitions of 'truth' in order to determine who is 'in' and who is 'out'. When you get life from depending on God and Him alone, you no longer have to play the 'who is right and who is wrong' game with them. This takes all the wind out of their sails and doesn't feed into their source of 'life'. I'm probably not being as clear as I would like, but basically, many who do not rely on Jesus alone have substituted judgement for love, and have no joy. Our joy is a direct indictment of that illegitimate source of 'life'. This explained a lot to me about why people stuck in a cult are so threatened -and rush to protect their 'rightness'! They are trying to get life from it - and it will never work. Does that make sense to anyone else? | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 365 Registered: 9-2004 |
Wow.. that's very interesting and makes sense to me.. Never really understood personally what people incl. SDAs replaced love with, but it's certainly seems plausible to me. Interesting insight and ideas, nevertheless. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 366 Registered: 9-2004 |
Wow.. that's very interesting and makes sense to me.. Never really understood personally what people incl. SDAs replaced love with, but it's certainly seems plausible to me. Interesting insight and ideas, nevertheless. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1999 Registered: 12-2003  |
Great insights, Marcell. Thanks for sharing them! Another thought I've had about the serpent and Eve was that he engaged her in arguing/discussing God's commands, and as Eve engaged in the verbal debate, she focused on rationalizing God's commands to her and completely took her focus off of her faith in God. It was the first example of taking one's sight off God and His promises and focussing instead on the meanings of His commands--and it led to the first sin in humanity. Focussing on law and away from God Himself always gets us in trouble! Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 342 Registered: 7-2000 |
SDA's, like every cult, insist that they have a knowledge of the Bible that no one else has. Every cult will tell you that they have the 'Way', that they know the 'truth'--and no one else has it. You have to come to them to get it. Along with this, the failing of all cult members is the same failing of Eve's---she didn't question what Satan was telling her. Instead, she rationalized and restated Gods' instructions to fit what she wanted to hear and NEVER questioned who the snake was. All of us made it out of the SDA church by finally asking some very hard questions. Asking very hard questions and being very skeptical is the first line of defense for any Christian. | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2004 |
Loneviking, So true. And yet, after working through my issues with the SDA church for several years, I find that I have at times taken skepticism to the point of cynicism. Boy, is it hard to keep a healthy balance there. I wonder how many of us look back to simpler times and miss the more laid back, happy-go-lucky selves that we might have been before our exit from Adventism. I don't regret for a minute my exodus. However, over the past month, I have begun looking for ways to bring my period of mourning to an end, to move on with life and embrace the positive things that God still has in store. I don't really want to go back to the naive guy I was 5 years ago, but I would like to return to the eternally positive and upbeat guy that I once was. I wonder whether others have ever felt this way. tdf | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 256 Registered: 7-2000  |
Tdf, I strongly identify with your present sentiments. Ending our"mourning" is scary, because it represents yet another unfamiliar "change" after all the changes we have already gone through in leaving Adventism! But if we are surrendering to the leading of the Holy Spirit, He will not permit us to stagnate. Sometimes He has to push me hard before I get the message and move! Bob | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 127 Registered: 2-2005 |
Marcell, Thanks for posting your insights. In my study out of Adventism I've experienced the second part of what you describe, namely a hunger for the gospel that is almost like the physical hunger for food or thirst for water. When I was entrenched in Adventism, I rarely opened a Bible because I just didn't have that hunger. During my study out of Adventism, I realized that even though I'd been baptized in an Adventist church, I'd never truly given my life to Christ and turned everything over to him. After realizing this, I asked God to send his Holy Spirit to come into my life and help me see things from His perspective in my study. Over a short time I developed the intense spiritual hunger I described above. I'm convinced this is the result of the regeneration process I only learned about when I began to read evangelical Christian authors. And you are right, now I have the desire to SHARE what I know with others. As Steve Brown says, I'm like one beggar showing another where I've found food. Tdf, I wrote something about what you describe in an email awhile back. I want to thank and acknowledge Bob for helping me to understand the stages of grief and how they apply to leaving a church. Anyway, here's what I wrote, I hope it helps: For me, the progression out of Adventism looked something like this: 1.) Questions regarding the interpretations of Daniel leading to the Sanctuary/IJ doctrines 2.) Self-study on these doctrines eventually leading to this site: www.ellenwhite.org 3.) Conclusion that EGW is not a prophet of God (my belief is that she was either mentally ill or used by a force opposed to God) 4.) Realization that if EGW is not a prophet of God, I must try to remove her influence from my belief system 5.) Realization that if I try to remove EGW from my belief system, the distinctive doctrines of Adventism (including the Sabbath) melt away 6.) Anger that I had been duped! Everyone approaches these things differently, but that's what my experience was like. I believe it is useful to think of the Kuebler-Ross stages of grief as a way to understand this process. These stages are: 1.) Denial -- "Adventism CAN'T be wrong." 2.) Anger -- "Adventism IS wrong and I have been MISLED!" 3.) Bargaining -- "Adventism is wrong, but can't I just throw out what's bad and go on with my life as an Adventist?" 4.) Depression -- "Adventism is wrong, I probably should leave the church, but I can't bear to think of what might happen with family and friends, yet the prospect of remaining in the church is also bleak." 5.) Acceptance -- "Adventism is wrong, I'm leaving, and I'm a better person for having been an Adventist because now I know what it means to truly follow God versus following man's teaching about God. Put another way, now I know what it means to cling to the shadows, versus clinging to Christ. I'll take Jesus!" It's important to understand that leaving the church is a process. Like with grief, it is unhealthy to remain "stuck" in any one of those stages leading up to acceptance. That said, I'm sure nobody stays at acceptance their entire life without dropping back into the other stages every so often. Greg | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 447 Registered: 6-2004 |
I agree with loneviking. I was reading a forum called Watchthetower.com (it's a former JW forum) and they have the same type of standards the SDA's do. They have the only truth and if you do not accept it, then you are not going to be saved. The same can be said for the Mormons and any other cult that requires members to accept their terms...and only their terms and never question it or risk being disfellowshipped. | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2004 |
Bob and Greg, Thanks for your posts. It is helpful to hear the experiences of others. The stages of grief are very accurate. I left the Adventist church right at the end of the bargaining stage and I think I've been stuck in depression ever since. I've only recently recognized it and I've been feeling the need to move toward acceptance (although I wouldn't have known to use those words until your post). It's nice to hear that others have successfully reached acceptance. I definitely have reached the point where I'm glad that I was an Adventist. I now fully understand the difference between the old and the new covenants, because I lived under the old covenant and I've experienced the reasons why Scripture indicates that the new covenant is built on better promises! God has been very faithful to my wife and I and I'm beginning to really appreciate the freedom that comes from embracing Christ and Him only. | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 34 Registered: 4-2004 |
Greg, you really hit the nail on the head about 'clinging to shadows' instead of 'clinging to Christ'. Shadows are so unsatifying!!! | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 257 Registered: 7-2000 |
Greg and Tdf, I think it is also important to recognize that these "stages of grief" don't occur necessarily in the neat 1-2-3-4-5 order described by Greg above. Every individual reacts differently to grief. In fact, for some, the first stage is a superficial kind of "acceptance" -Oh no! - I've been duped!" Then, the full realization hits you, and you plummet into depression! Someone has said, "You don't appreciate a truth until it makes you laugh. But you really don't understand it until it makes you cry." We on this spiritual journey rejoice when we find truth, and then, as we realize how long it took us to find it, what it will require of us in the future, and how many there are who will not accept our newly-discovered truth, it also makes us cry. And I think it is only at that point of tears that we really come to terms with that truth! Bob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2005 Registered: 12-2003 |
Greg, Bob, Tdf--thank you for your insights. The stages of grief also helped me understand what I was experiencing. I also found that I would bounce around between two or three of those stages over a period of time; in other words, I didn't make a linear progression through them. Tdf--the acceptance phase of the process really builds on immersion in Scripture and praising God. In fact, the depression phase was the one that probably impacted me the hardest. (Richard's hardest phase was the anger.) Philippians 4:1-4 is becoming one of the most powerful passages in Scripture for me. Rejoicing in the Lord is the pathway to emerging from the shadows. God is faithful; He'll bring you into the light! Colleen | ||
| Faith2 Registered user Username: Faith2 Post Number: 44 Registered: 3-2005 |
TDF, I was a VERY happy and delightful person before becoming Adventist. The more I studied, the more my joy decreased! I become very uptight and felt that everything in life had to have the seal of perfection. I was a shadow clinger! God spoke to my heart maybe two weeks ago, he reminded me that he gave me what I had been crying and praying for (Freedom in Him) but I was not accepting His gift. I knew that God was right and I repented immediately. Bob, I hear you about the HS pushing us...I am glad to say that I am out of my grieving stage and have accepted the fact that I once was blind but now see. I am so free spirited and filled with grace. Mostly because I understand what Grace truly is... TDF, you will get through this! God is giving me favor with man again. I use every chance that I get to witness for Him! My day is not complete until I tell someone of His goodness. I have no animosity towards the SDA system or its sincere members. Isn't it wonderful that God will restore the years that the cankerworm has eaten?! Greg, thank God that we are Christ clingers. We must lead by example... Faithe | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 451 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thank you for your post, Faithe. As an Adventist, and remember, I was born into it, other than Pathfinders campouts and that sort of thing, I was never anything but up tight. I had to be good to get to heaven, and I was never sure when I had been good enough. By the time I got into my 20's it was very clear to me that I could never measure up. Not to beat a dead horse, but I had been sexually molested by a family member when I was a young girl, and he was the MV leader at the time. Like all perverts he smoothly talked to me about how I was too attractive (at 11?) and he just couldn't help himself, making me feel like it was my fault that he had molested me. I was carrying all of that dead weight around with me every day of my life. I was afraid to form a normal healthy relationship because I thought there was something basically "bad" about me. Being SDA was not a redeeming factor in any of my life. Learning about the true love of Jesus was everything for me. I don't have to worry about being "good enough" because the Holy Spirit within me keeps me on the narrow way (wouldn't that surprise Colporteur!). My life isn't a contest any more. I can celebrate true joy because I know that Jesus will never let me go. Belva | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 165 Registered: 7-2004 |
Faith and TDF, I hold dear, "yea though I walk through the valley of the shadows of death, I will fear no evil. For thou art with me." Grace surrounds us whether we like it or not. Depressing or saddening times are must instances that we cruise through are personal valleys of shadows. That is where we are most affected by Satan. But There is no conditional statement in that verse. God is always there. His Grace is always there. Christ is freedom. Grab a hold of it and fly. Continue to tell others. | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 166 Registered: 7-2004 |
Depressing or saddening times are just instances of personal valleys of shadows that we cruise through. That is what I meant to type. I think that sometimes the ink from my tatooes affects my train of thought. | ||
| Redhorsewoman Registered user Username: Redhorsewoman Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2005 |
As I read these posts, I am struck time and time again by the parallels between SDAs and JWs (or, for that matter ICOC or any other legalistic, high-control group.) As Pw mentioned, the JW experience is almost identical to the SDA experience. Rules and regulations govern every aspect of life, from what a person wears, to what they read or watch, and those with whom they are allowed to associate. "Truth" becomes a ball and chain. Somehow, groups that claim to own the "truth" are very afraid to expose that "truth" to any challenge, so they keep their group separate from the world and claim that this is what Christ wanted. Yet, when you examine what the scriptures say about Jesus, you can see that he did just the opposite. He interacted with all sorts of people, much to the chagrin of his apostles at times. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 456 Registered: 7-2004 |
Great insights, guys! Thanks so much for sharing. My friend Lindylou (who posts here occaionally) and I have been having these same conversations. We both have gone through the stages (Greg, the stages that you shared and applied to Adventism are excellent) and we both feel weighed down by the drudgery of looking back at the whole journey we have been on as we have removed ourselves from our SDA heritage. It would be so wonderful if we could just move on and and not have any looming emotions - only joy, peace and contentment. Just this week we sat and came up with an some ideas for moving forward in Christ. Sometimes I think I get too boxed in with my stages...I want to move completely into the acceptance phase which means finding the redemption Jesus has in my SDA past. Here are some of the things we discussed in moving forward in the New Covenant love of Jesus Christ: 1. Become involved in a new church. 2. Talk with the pastor and share our SDA background and experience with him. 3. Discuss with him how our background can be used to bring others out of bondage into the rest Jesus provides. 4. Take full advantage of our fellowship with one another to encourage, uplift, support and remind each other to move forward in our relationship with God. 5. Through pray and Bible study draw closer to God and with willingness and thanksgiving be used by Him. I don't know if this all sounds trite...or even makes sense...for me it just seems like I need to make a concerted effort to not allow my SDA background to hold me back from all that God wants me to be. Praise God for His sovereign love and for FAF. What a blessing all of you are and I pray that God uses my voice on this forum to bring others into His amazing rest. | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 55 Registered: 1-2005 |
Ditto, "Dd" -  I liken coming out of SDAism as one trying to untangle themselves from a big giant spider web! It is hard to initially break out - - and once you think you are free, you find sticky tendrils of web clinging to you. You try to brush them off and keep on walking out of the spider's lair - but every now and then you look down and see a bit of sticky silk stuck to your shoes or hidden in your hair. It is sometimes more frustrating than joyful - this journey into freedom. You have all said it well here - that once you stop looking at what you are leaving behind and keep your eyes on Jesus, before you know it, you look in the mirror one day and realize that there is not one single piece of deceitful web on you because Jesus washed you clean! I think that what "Dd" was saying above is all about focus and having a purpose or mission in your life. I will also add my encouragement to "Tdf" - just keep on going! Learn from the anger and depression. Don't fight it. One of these days soon it will be like bursting forth from a dark stay in a cocoon - with beautiful butterfly wings of understanding God's amazing Grace deep in your heart. The period of darkness is necessary - and will ultimately bring great joy. Author Sue Monk Kidd puts it this way: "As Christians, we've always emphasized the spiritual birth, but we haven't paid a lot of attention to the incubation that preceeds it - all those months in the darkness of the womb. When Jesus selected this beautiful feminine metaphor (in talking with Nicodemus), He wanted us to grasp the importance not only of a new birth but of HOW that birth happens. I think he was implying that with every birth there is a womb, and if we want to find the inner kingdom, we will have to enter the place of waiting, darkness and incubation." This idea has helped me many times when times seem dark and there is no joy in my heart. I'm learning not to fight those times. I leave you all with this prayer: "In all those dark moments, O God, grant that I may understand that it is You who are painfully parting the fibers of my being in order to penetrate to the very marrow of my substance." (Teilhard de Chardin) |
