| Author | Message | ||
| Faith2 Registered user Username: Faith2 Post Number: 40 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hello All, I have not posted in a while because I needed a break but decided to stop by tonight. I am totally in shock over the scapegoat doctrine. Words can not describe how I feel realizing that I believed such heresy! I was so pompous in my ignorance. And the whole bit about Satan and Jesus being nearly equals until God the father confided in Jesus and so on... I taught that mess to my family and friends. For some odd reason this issue has hit me the hardest. I feel as if I was seduced into believing lies. I was!!! I can not remember when it happened. This is so serious. I can not remember making a decision to accept any of that stuff as truth but somehow I embraced and shared it all. I am trying to share the love of Christ but being around Adventist vexes my spirit. Please pray for me because I feel that I am too emotional in order to be an effective witness. I try to keep my conversations short and focused on God. My mom refuses to tell anyone because she's too embarrassed. My husband's parents seem not to care... I feel so sick to my stomach. This is the first time that I have been able to truly see and feel my deception. This is so serious. This is soooooooo wrong!!! Jesus paid it all!! What an insult!!! Becky, I join you! "Prayer works, I'm praying for ALL (SDA and any other denomination) that doesn't have a real joy in Christ". Let me get this straight, Jesus died for my sins and therefore, Satan does not have to burn for them? Satan will die because of his transgression against God? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1904 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, Faith2, you have it straight. Jesus has completely saved you, and He paid the full price for all our sin. I so understand your feeling of shock. Let Jesus come into your outrage, and He will redeem it. He is so faithful! Colleen | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2005 |
Colleen ; Thank you for your references to Scott Peckís ideas on laziness and honesty. That is right on the mark. As a survivor of four levels of the sda educational system and an employee of sda church, I know from experience that it is only the goodness of God who relentless chased me down and kept the dissonance of the belief system ìin my faceî that ultimately brought me to the place where I can disconnect from sda. There have been so many things shared on the site that have been used by God to affirm where He is leading me. He has used people here to confirm that the ìold incantationsî ARE oppressive and have been crafted to act as a barrier between Jesus and me. Becky God has blessed me beyond anything I could hope for by letting me be instrumental in encouraging and praying several individuals and couples through the transition out of sda and into a real, loving and nurturing Christian church family. Prayer is such a huge, powerful, privileged calling and so effective. The ìSpirit is moving all over the worldî and Jesus is calling people out of confusion, oppression, and deception (sda-ism). I believe that your parents are the objects of Godís focused love and He will not forget them. I like what one translation of Paul says, ìWho has bewitched youÖ?î . I think the answer for us is clear. The enemy is using everything available to ìseparate us from the love of Godî. Paul Cross | ||
| Faith2 Registered user Username: Faith2 Post Number: 41 Registered: 3-2005 |
I hear you Colleen. It seems that I accepted what Jesus did for me but with the E.G. White extras. Oh well. Just seems that I need to monitor exactly what I believe. I feel much better now than I did earlier. I am so glad that God revealed Himself to me. I'm free. | ||
| Becky Registered user Username: Becky Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2005 |
Faith2, Don't be too hard on yourself for having been fooled. That's me fear for my parents. WHEN they come out, I suspect they will be angry and feel foolish - exactly what I suspect Satan would want. Maybe they won't want to go to church at all anymore - score another one for the Devil. DON'T let him win!! Think of the other people who have been just as fooled - doctors, teachers etc - smart, smart folks not your uneducated mass. It's a spell of some sort I'm telling you. Praise God you are out and can participant in this forum as a support and witness to others who are struggling. I do not believe you, my folks or any others got mingled in this by accident. I believe God can now use you to pray for and hold the hand of others that want out. Love in Christ, Becky | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 256 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy and Colleen, Thanks for your responses to my inquiry on Batchelor. Jeremy, I don't disagree with you on very many things,and you are mostly right on Batchelor, as I have said previously. I wasn't going to bring up that link you posted previously, as you were much more adamant on that particular thread than on this one. I think it is the matter of degree of demonic involvement that we disagree on. I believe Christians can be oppressed by demons, but not possessed. I am not making a judgment on whether Doug is a Christian, as I am happy to leave that with God. But demonic possession is a very strong word. Look at the New Testament descriptions of demonic possession. Most experts on the occult do not believe demonic possession exists ver frequently, if at all in the U.S. It exists in mission fields, and especially Africa and the Carribean, where voodoo and other phenomenon exist. I am struggling with some questions right now, and would like anyone's input. What is the minimum requirement for salvation? This question started to interest me at the time of the Pope's death. We had another thread in which we were discussing whether the pope was saved, and Jeremy and I expressed some serious doubts. I happened to be listening to a radio talk show in which Pastor Chuck Smith (Jeremy--I know you said on another thread that you believe he is spirit filled, and I agree), was asked by a caller if he thought the pope was saved. He expressed the fact that the Pope believed in all kinds of false teachings including Mary as a co-redemptrix, and denying Justification by faith, but I was taken back a bit by how he answered the question. He used Romans 10:9,10 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord(assuming your Christology is correct), and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." So he said if the Pope believed that he would be saved. I don't know if he is correct or not, and i will leave that to God. If you compare Doug Batchelor's doctrine on paper to the Pope's doctrine, then would you not say that maybe on an objective basis, Doug would be more orthodox? They both teach demonic doctrines--Doug teaches the I.J., the pope teaches Galatianism and Maryology. But, as so many of you so beautifully stated, you saw the Pope's warmth, and he seems to exhibit the spirit of Christ so much better than Doug Batchelor--I agree with Jeremy--Doug is manipulative, and I did not see any Christian spirit the way I saw it with the pope. This probably belonged under the Pope thread, but I wanted to tie it into Doug Batchelor. I would appreciate anyone's input. Thamks, Stan | ||
| Becky Registered user Username: Becky Post Number: 10 Registered: 2-2005 |
Stan, I'm certainly no expert, but yes I do believe the Pope is saved. I have always been taught John 3:16 "For God so love the world He gave His only begotten son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." I believe the only way Doug, the Pope and whoever else that taught or teaches falses doctrines would loose their salvation would have to have been teaching those doctrines KNOWING they were wrong. I don't doubt the salvation of SDA's or the numerous other groups out there teaching error - unless they know they are doing it. I want to believe God gives us grace for erroring; there's a difference between erroring and lying, however, that's where God steps in and knows all. That's just what I believe and have been taught. We have a loving and forgiving God - One that does not call us to perfection. I also reject the idea that God is so impotent that He only saves those of us who have "all of the truth." God wishes "none to perish". If we are really believers we live a life of thankfulness for the grace we have been given. - just my two cents worth. Becky | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1906 Registered: 12-2003 |
You are asking really hard questions, Stan! I've struggled with these and similar questions over the last few years, and I've not come up with a clear-cut "formula" for answering them.Ultimately, only God knows the true heart of a man. One thing of which I'm increasingly convinced: I believe the mark of a person who truly seeks after God is the deep desire to know truth. 1 Corinthians 3 suggests that the saved are in various stages of maturity, and the "works" of many will be "burned" while they themselves will be saved "as one escaping through the flames". I'll be really frank--I believe the Catholic church is a cult. It's just a very established, cleaned-up cult. It's a sort-of "hide in plain sight" phenomenon. Adventism and Catholicism, I believe, are very similar in their qualifications for "cult-dom". On paper, they espouse orthodox doctrines. On paper, they also espouse clearly unchristian doctrines. Both add to the gospel and deprive people of confidence, assurance of salvation, and the knowledge of salvation by grace alone through faith in Jesus. I do believe people inside cults can be saved. If they truly embrace Jesus and discover the sufficiency of his sacrifice on the cross, they can be saved by that acceptance. I believe, though, that God continues to call those people toward Him, asking them to surrender more and more of their "trappings" so they can trust solely in Him. Only God knows exactly how He works in the heart of a man or woman. Only God knows what an individual does with the truth of which He convicts them. Only God can truly know whose heart is His. Objectively, I don't see Batchelor (when I watch him on the internet) calling people to accept Jesus. He calls them into the Adventist church, and he calls them into Sabbath-keeping. Oh, he'll talk about Jesus, but the commitment calls tend to be to accept Jesus by showing your loyalty by taking your stand to keep the Sabbath against all odds, etc. I'm not saying those responding are not accepting Jesus--Jesus can reveal Himself through any means and in any circumstance He chooses! I just don't see Batchelor's appeal to be for Jesus; it's for belonging to Adventism. Did the pope call people to Jesus? Frankly, I don't know. I do know that the clear statement made at his funeral that he was saved by the blood of Jesus was a powerful statement. Was he double-minded? I don't know. Further, I don't know exactly how God deals with the double-minded. James is clear that the double-minded are to purify their hearts and that sinners are to wash their hands (James 4:8). This is in the context of resisting the devil and submitting to God. Paul is repeatedly clear that believers are to forsake sin, and he says that liars, adulterers, slanderers, the greedy, etc. will not enter the kingdom. But what does God do with people who confess Jesus, speak of Him to others, proclaim His salvation, and yet have pockets of their lives that are completely destructive both to themselves and others? I have to leave this question unaswered in my own mind--at least I don't have a completely sufficient answer. I believe that when we accept Jesus, He saves us IN our sins and proceeds throughout the rest of our lives to convict us and to clean us up. I believe that not all sins are conquered by the time of our deaths. I believe that we can trust Jesus to complete the work begun in us and to completely clothe us with His righteousness even if our behaviors are not all cleaned up. In short, I have to say again that only God knows a person's heart. Only God knows whether or not a person truly surrrenders to Jesus and desires to live a life of integrity, or whether a person deeply clings to his own identity, his own agenda, and tries to sanctify his own efforts by calling on God to bless him. Does a person have an undivided heart, a heart surrendered to Jesus, a heart desiring truth, or does he hold his own agenda close to himself while adopting a "Christian" exterior the better to accomplish his own goals? Perhaps these are the questions we need to ask about ourselves. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 632 Registered: 10-2004  |
Stan, wow, you raise a lot of interesting points.
I totally agree with that statement.
That is something I've been wondering about. Can we ever know for sure that someone is not a Christian? Paul says that whoever preaches another Gospel is to be eternally condemned. But does that only mean those who are knowingly doing it?? That text in Galatians 1 is a hard one. As "Paulcross" pointed out above, Galatians 3:1 does say that those who were taught a false gospel had been "bewitched."
Or is it only more subtle in the Western world because we are more "civilized"--and in other parts of the world they are more used to the supernatural, etc.? I have heard this explanation before. That maybe the influence of demons is just more subtle in America, etc. But maybe you are right, about possession having to be something more extreme or whatever...I don't know. About the Pope, it seems so many Christians these days automatically think the Pope was saved, etc., that I am actually pleasantly surprised at Pastor Chuck's answer. It sounds to me like he was basically just quoting what the Bible says and saying that if it applies to the Pope, then he was saved. It is not just an intellectual belief that saves us, though. Someone can even know the correct Gospel and still not be saved. They must be born again by a miracle of God and by actually placing their faith/trust (a real faith which can only come as a gift of God) in Jesus Christ to save them.
The only written statement of belief that I have seen is the very brief one from the Amazing Facts web site, and it does state that Jesus is fully God, though it does not say anything about the Godhead or Trinity. The statement on salvation also sounds good at quick glance--but it is deceptive, it doesn't tell you what they really believe and teach. Also, Doug teaches Galatianism, also, I would say. I don't really know what you mean by Doug being more orthodox than the Pope--they both teach that you need something more than Jesus' life and death to save you. Could you clarify what you meant? Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 257 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, Due to time constraints(at the hospital), I sometimes don't state my full thought. Both Doug and Pope teach Galatianism--I was referring to the blasphemous Mary as co-redemptrix--that too me is even worse than all the bad doctrines Doug teaches. The I.J. is a doctrine of the devil to rob of us of our joy, but may not be as bad as Mary being a co-redemptrix. I know speaking for myself as a former SDA, it is hard for me to admit that Doug might be slightly more orthodox than the Pope, but I don't believe it is worth making distinctions like that. They both teach false doctrines, I will let God be the Judge. he is so much more fair than I can be!! Stan | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 177 Registered: 4-2002  |
I really think that when we get to Heaven. God will meet us with a smile and say, "I've got good news and bad news. The bad news is that you all had a lot of doctrines that you truly believed were My truth .. but you were wrong. The good news is that it doesn't matter because you truly believed in Jesus and put your faith and trust in Him and His cross. Welcome Home!" Maybe it's bit simplistic, but The Gospel is about Jesus. Everybody has a few "extra" doctrines that we feel are ever so "right". God, I am sure, is amused at our chilidlike and so human reasoning. The fact is that we are saved by HIS grace. That makes the choice and the act HIS, not ours. When we get home, we will probably be surprised at some of the folks who are there, and who AREN'T there. The biggest surprise will be that even I will be there. Just because of His cross! In His grip! <>< Thomas | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 248 Registered: 7-2004  |
Thomas, It certainly is refreshing to know that our basis for salvation isn't a theology exam. | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 45 Registered: 1-2005 |
This has been an interesting thread to follow. I liked Thomas' simplistic response. We as "formers" make a big deal out of the simple gospel and it has been intriguing to listen to the pondering of the "salvation" of others with different beliefs. I liked Colleen's admonition that perhaps it would be best to be asking ourselves these questions about ourselves! For myself - it takes enough of my spiritual "energy" to keep it fresh in my mind that it is all about Jesus: "God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life!" Amazingly, awesome and simple. Like some of you, I was squirming a bit in my seat as I read the strong words applied to the likes of Doug B. and others being "demon possessed." As one who was once involved in "deliverance ministry" - I would have to disagree with that application. My group crossed a line and addressed demons - many of us went through "deliverance" sessions with the idea that perhaps we might have a "demon of appetite" or "demon of selfishness" ect.... The "demons" obliged us and manifested through some of us using our vocal cords and body parts. But despite that dangerous playing around we did - I can say that none of us were "possessed." We were deluded and harrassed - by addressing satan we gave him permission to mess with us - but praise God - we were protected even in our ignorance! I think possession can only occur when someone deliberately gives themself over to Satan in a blatant way. It is my belief that the SDA beliefs have arisen out of a very carefully devised plan of Satan's to subtly lead people astray. It is a crafty devise - to mix truth with error in a way that subtracts from the pure gospel. But I think it is unwise to characterize believers or even teachers of this doctrine as being "possessed". Delusional and blinded by a veil of darkness, perhaps - but not demon possessed. There's been lots of food for thought here! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 259 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lindylou, Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. I agree with you completely. I believe we need to expose SDA for its deceptions, but be careful of the way in which we do it. If we use overstatements, then we lose credibility with those who are lurking and searching for better answers--Our emphasis should always be rejoicing in so great a Salvation in Christ alone! Stan | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 435 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lindylou and Stan, I agree with your thoughts. I believe we should "beware of the dogs, beware of the evil worker, beware of the false circumcision; for we are the true circumsicision, who worship in the Spirit of God and rejoice in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:2,2). I am reading an article by Al Maxey, "Evangelizing the Enslaved: Breaking the Bonds of Sectarian Slavery". It is excellent. I would encourage all to read it. It is found at http://www.zianet.com/maxey/reflx162.htm . He says, "When one is free, one knows joy; when one is still enslaved, such is a foriegn concept; indeed, witnessing such joy can be somewhat distressing for them, for it indicts their own emptiness. Nevertheless, such stark contrast will touch the hearts of some who are growing dissatisfied with their joyless existence. LIVE your freedom in Christ visibly before them, showing them the beauty of a life filled with the Spirit. It will attract some, just as it repels others." I agree with Al Maxey, with my freedom in Jesus comes a responsibility to not just preserve and protect that freedom but to also PROMOTE it. We must pray for those who have heard about Jesus and even have come to embrace Him but who do not know the FREEDOM He died to secure for them...I want to be about the business of being used by Him to create in those whom I love a longing of an intimate, joyful relationship with Jesus! GIVE ME JESUS!!! | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 117 Registered: 2-2005 |
Dd, thanks for the link to the Maxey article--it is outstanding. There are so many gems in that article, but here's my favorite:
Give me Jesus indeed! Greg | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1456 Registered: 3-2004  |
It is so good to be a part of God's church rather than entering THE CHURCH with a solemn, joyless face. I am uplifted when I hear the music, singing and the talking of people to each other of the joy of God. Since joining my church I volunteer to greet people at the door. People know me by my smile. I am so happy in Christ because He has brought me so far. The Journey has been interesting and joy filled, even when it is difficult. Praise God with up lifted hands. God you are awesome. Diana | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 50 Registered: 1-2005 |
Dd, Great web site. You are a fount of information ,girlfriend!~ Thanks for sharing. I have printed out the article and plan to read it at my leisure. lindylou | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 379 Registered: 4-2000  |
Diana, It is good to hear that you are a hostess or greeter at your church. Sylvia and I are also involved in this important ministry. We are indeed honored to be the first, in our church family, to welcome people to join us in worshipping Jesus Christ. Furthermore, we are trained to leave our post at any time to walk someone to a class, etc. On the bottom of our name tag it says, "Here to Serve." Our senior pastor, upon reading our new slogan, asked for a shoulder massage (smile). I mentioned that he probably needed one after a sermon. We meet with an associate pastor prior to every greeting time. We are brought up-to-date on the latest church news, room locations of various groups/ministries, and we pray together. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1457 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dennis, We meet with the couple in charge of the people who welcome, find out anything new going on, direct people or take them where they want to go, show them where to register their children and we pray together before we go out to greet. After the service we meet in Guest Central to meet with those who are interested in our church and its message. I like doing this so very much. It will be a year next Sunday that I first went to my church. When I went in and sat down that Sunday, I felt like I had come home. It was such a comfortable feeling. Looking back, it was God's presence there that filled my soul and heart. I signed up for their Starting Point, a 7 week course, a class which teaches the basics of Christianity and the continuation course, DiscoveryE, a 21 week class. I did them at the same time. I wanted to make up for lost time. After all I had studied false doctrine all my life. What was interesting was that I had been reading the NT on my own. The SDA pastor had challenged our SS class to read the NT at the beginning of the year. So I had read quite a bit of it, plus read all the things here on the internet, plus studying with a Bible concordance. I was learning on my own, in reality the Holy Spirit was teaching me, what the Bible really teaches and what I learned was confirmed by what I read on the internet, all the web sites written by former SDAs, and what I learned at church. I am so happy where I am right now, but I have also told God, that if He wants me to go to another church where my younger sister would go, she likes more traditional music, that I would gladly change churches. So far God has kept me where I am. I am going to talk to the folks in charge about putting the phrase "here to serve" on the bottom of our name tags. I like that as we are there to serve. Dennis, I know I wrote to you at least once when I decided to not rejoin the SDA church and you sent me a lovely e-mail. Thanks so much. Our God is awesome and I am so thankful. Diana |
