| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 271 Registered: 3-2005 |
I would like to call everyone's attention to a book that has been a tremendous blessing to me. This book re-affirms the total Sovereignty of God in election. It also confirms that the Holy Spirit leads into all truth. It is also a strong confirmation that the SDA church is indeed a cult. As my time permits, I would like to post excerpts from this book on this thread and then get your comments. This book really belongs on one of those web sites that post books online. This book is out of print but can be purchased for 2.95 at the following link: www.alibris.com/search/books/author/Chagall,%20David The authors are David and Juneau Chagall, and the book was published by Thomas Nelson copyrighted 1988, and I had forgotten about it until just recently. I actually just re-read the last 3 chapters this A.M., and couldn't contain my joy at reading this story. Politics fans like myself remember David for his political commentary with George Putnam and Ray Briem, long time fixtures in L.A. talk radio.He is famous for a book called "The New Kingmakers", about how political candidates come to power. He was raised as an orthodox Jew. Briefly, the book is about their journey through different phases of the New Age movement, finally ending up with Roy Masters, and how that involvement led to a vivid occultic experience accompanied by lights, and the face of Roy Masters staring at him thru this light. This frightened him enough, that they left Roy Masters, and mysteriously they were drawn to the study of the Bible--especially the O.T., where they got back to their Jewish roots, and started keeping the Sabbath like good Jews. Then he talks about his addiction to marijuana, and how he prayed desperately to kick this habit. There was a still small voice that told him to try Jesus, and he , a Jew, was terrified at that thought. The Lord delivered him from this habit, and he became a Christian, and independently, his wife also came to know Christ. The next step down this Sunshine Road led them to a Sabbath keeping church(After all, they were Jewish still, and they were supposed to keep the Sabbath), and led to an SDA church associated with George Vandeman. They were attending that church for 18 months, when the question of Baptism came up. Their impression after diligently studying the Bible, was that they could be baptized if they believed in Jesus as their savior. But, they were told, you have to believe the 20 some odd fundamentals before you can be baptized. They also read a lot of EGW books during that time, and came to the conclusion that she was a false prophet, and they felt the strong conviction of the Holy Spirit, that this was just another stop along that long Sunshine Road over the past 24 years of going from one movement to another in New Age and false teachings. They wrote letters to everyone, and got out of the SDA church, and then joined a Bible believing fellowship calle Agoura Christian Fellowship, and then they knew for sure that they had finally come to the end of this long search for truth, and found their true Sabbath rest in Jesus. Anyway, as time permits, I would like to post excerpts from the book detailing their interaction with the SDA church. I think you will find this fascinating. More to come. Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 412 Registered: 7-2004 |
Please do so. I would love to read that type of testimony. Belva | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 366 Registered: 5-2002 |
Stan, that is interesting. When I exited the Thousand Oaks SDA church, I accepted an invitation from a co-worker to attend the Agoura Bible Fellowship. Pastor Dave Gudgel, who has since moved to Arizona, had a great impact on me accepting the New Covenant of Grace. I have since moved away from Agoura to Pasadena, but I still have several friends and former co-workers who helped me process out of SDAism who still attend Agoura Bible Fellowship. | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 44 Registered: 3-2005 |
I'm looking forward to reading more! -tisha | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 272 Registered: 3-2005 |
Free, David Gudgel was the pastor that influenced the Chagalls at the time--Its a small world! Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 273 Registered: 3-2005 |
Now,I'll try to get to a few interesting excerpts. The cover of the book says, "In their search for New Age answers, they chased their dreams across the seas, only to find the truth in Christ at the end of...The Sunshine Road." The forward: Our thanks to the Spirit of Truth, and Ed Richter, who never knew it would take 24 years for us to find out what Romans 8:28 is really all about." The book details their search thru many kinds of New Age experiences leading up to getting deeply involved with Roy Masters. I'm sure many of you have heard this smooth talking guy on the radio. He has a hypnotic effect on people, and is very controlling and manipulative. David tells the story of an occultic experience at the height of his involvement with Masters, the night before he was supposed to go on a radio program with him. Here is the description: "Suddenly, I saw a light flash into the darkness and a blue-white brilliance loomed closer and closer until at last it dominated my vision. There was a face inside the great glow, a face not unlike Roy Masters.' Instinctively, I knew this was the Light, coming to claim me at my moment of truth. There was no time to think of what to do--I reacted instantly. Covering my eyes with my arms, I shouted "No!", as my being decided the matter. The Light vanished, and I sat up in bed trembling. It took me two hours to get back to sleep, troubled that maybe I'd decided my fate for all eternity." They left the Roy Masters movement, and then contemplated their next step: "Spiritually, Juneau and I entered a new, surprising phase. Drawn like magnets to the Bible, we spent our free time studying the Word or reading aloud to each other and discussing what we didn't understand...The more we got into the Bible, the more convinced we were of its truth...Though attracted to the portrait of Jesus, we regarded Him as an exalted teacher and prophet but certainly not the Son of God." "After reading the 10 commandments one Friday night, i decided we should observe the Sabbath day and keep it holy." In the Spring of '84 while the political primaries were heating up, David was convicted that he was addicted to marijuana. He had given up regular cigarettes in the past by just praying to God, and he assumed that this time would be just as easy, but not so. He became more frustrated that his prayers were not being heard. "Instead, a still small voice spoke to my mind's ear..."Ask Jesus," He said. I couldn't believe it! Ask Jesus? I could never do that....I was a Jew...Shaking off His suggestion, i lit a joint and escaped into grass" This cycle kept repeating itself. "I clasped my hands and prayed: "Jesus, if You are who Scripture says You are, please heal me of this marijuana curse. I ask this with a sincere heart. I ask this in truth and will serve the truth if You do this." The desire for marijuana was taken away. "Two full days went by...The Holy Spirit,...convicted my heart. I could no longer deny Him who had saved me. So I got down on my spiritual knees, thanked Him for who He was and what He'd done for me, then gave my life over to him...I passed from death into life (John 5:24)... He who has the Son has life(1John 5:11,12)...My heart rejoiced in a new way and sang a new song to His glory and praise. All guilt had vanished..." At the same time the Holy Spirit was working on Juneau's heart, and she came to Christ thru reading a description of the death of Christ by Hal Lindsay. Here is her words: "The day after I accepted Christ as my Savior, I was amazed to find I now knew every word in the Bible was absolutely true. But I did not tell David. Not knowing that David was already a true Christian....That very week, we confessed to each other that we were true Christians, born of the Spirit, confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Oh, the miracle of the holy Spirit, who worked on us in different ways to the same blessed end!" To be continued. Stan | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 46 Registered: 3-2005 |
WOW! God is so amazing and powerful. I know He is just waiting for us to turn to Him and ask for His help. It is so wonderful when we finally grasp this truth! I'm waiting for the continuation! -tisha | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1466 Registered: 3-2004  |
What a beautiful testimony this book is. Thank you so much, Stan, for sharing snippets of it with us. Praise God he uses any/all avenues to reach us where we are at. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 274 Registered: 3-2005 |
Shortly after their conversion experience, they thought it would be right to attend a church that kept the Sabbath. So they were led to an SDA church. "As new Christians, we hungered for spiritual information but though they were sweet and gentle-spirited, our new church friends never seemed willing to talk about God or His Word. That was when George Vandeman...who attended our Thousand Oaks church--over a potluck lunch confided that they were praying the Holy Spirit to bring us in as members. It was hinted that I might join their media ministry as a writer. Vandeman urged us to attend an evening "Seminar for the End Times" that looked into the Bible and what Adventists believe, so we signed up...a typical session began with a video tape of Vandeman discussing Satan, rebellion, the mark of the beast, and other subjects. The presentation was slick...Vandeman used the jump-around method of Bible texting. He had us code the special Bibles distributed the first night, and we'd go from a verse in proverbs, coding it SR for Satan's Rebellion, to another in Mark or Revelation where we'd dutifully ink in similar SR's, without having the faintest idea of background or reason behind the analysis. The tape was followed by a 40 minute teaching session run by the pastor, Howard Welklin, and an architect named Ralph Arnold....Every time Juneau or I posed questions or challenged an interpretation, Welklin put us off."You're jumping the gun a bit"..."Let's go into that some other time". Needless to say, the "right time" never arrived, and we had lots of unanswered questions...."Soon we got into the "gift of prophecy" and learned that SDAs believe...EGW fulfilled Rev 12:17 and 19:10 concerning the remnant church of the last days. Since that didn't jibe with what we understood about Christian doctrine, we bought a set of White's books to find out what she-and therefore this church-teaches. We found many of White's ideas troublesome...that Sunday keepers had the mark of the beast..etc. "There were lots more rules about health, jewelry, wine, and food in White's books, prohibitions that make a total mockery of salvation through God's grace alone". They then joined associate pastor's Ole Oleson Bible class, and he also ducked their questions. David was being convicted that they should become baptized, and he told Ole he wanted to be baptized. Ole replied, "Wonderful...But I need to know what you understand of baptism?" David replied, "It's a public acknowledgment that we've accepted Jesus as lord and Savior... Ole answered, "All right, but that's not all of it..I'll check with Howard and get back to you..." They got back to them and basically said "baptism by Adventists means joining the Adventist church and accepting all the church's tenets" "He gave us a card with 20 points of Adventist faith...Many of them were troublesome--especially Sabbath and EGW" David raised the question of Baptism with Juneau, and she protested, "But we have to join their church!" David answered, "So we join..We don't have to go along with all their rules." She replied. "Yes we do. Yes we do!...I don't want to spend my life feeling guilty. You don't understand, David, they're another cult. They have all these rules and regulations that cancel out the whole blessing of God's Grace!" "Suddenly, Juneau began sobbing uncontrollably. Her reaction was so intense I was frightened and tried to console her...."It took us a long time to get to sleep after the emotional upheaval, but after that our spirits were calmed. Soon afterward I wrote a lengthy letter to the pastor explaining how our studies had led us to withdraw our request for baptism in their church. Pointing out doctrines we saw as heretical, we felt their church was tring to earn salvation through rules...though we were grateful for the 18 months of fellowship..we sent copies of this letter to all those adventists we'd come to know and love." They stopped going to church for a time, and continued to ask for God's guidance as they studied the Bible on their own. They were drawn to Agoura Christian Fellowship, and took a Bible class which was taught by television producer Michael Warren of "Happy Days." "We found the class--as well as our classmates--absolutely charming, full of love and good humor. Most gratifying, though was the teaching. Warren workd strictly from the text, and welcomed questions, challenges, and opinions from his students...We found an uncompromising pastor, Dave Gudgel, preaching the true Word of God, equally open to inquiry and ready to give an answer to every question...We asked Pastor Dave to baptize us, and though we were not yet members, he joyfully agreed. On Good Friday 1986, Juneau and I declared before man and God that Jesus Christ is our Lord, our God who died so we might live, and who rose from the grave to prove His dominion over life and death. Two months later, we became members. Today Juneau and I sing in the choir, I serve on the deacon board...More important, we know Christ, live from Him, and trust Him for our lives and happiness." "How can we be sure our faith in Christ is not just another false turning on the Sunshine Road? Or that biblical truth is not just one more cultic belief? It's been 4 years now since we accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior. In every spiritual trip we've ever taken, the process was identical. We'd start out full of high hopes and enthusiasm and go downhill from there. Soon the disenchantment would set in...."Living through Jesus Christ, exactly the reverse is true....Our faith grows stronger with each passing day.."Our hearts are more filled with joy, our testing of Scripture only proves all the more that it is God's revealed Truth for all mankind. That's why Juneau and I had to tell our story of the Sunshine Road. If we didn't speak up, the rocks and trees would have shouted--for it is God's will that all his children return to His fold now, at this very special moment in history." Anyway, that is a brief summary with a few excerpts. Reviewing this story has been very inspiring to me, and I hope it is for all of you as well. Stan | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks so much, Stan. It's been inspiring to me as well. -tisha | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1468 Registered: 3-2004 |
Stan, Thanks again for sharing this with us. It is so inspiring and so true. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1926 Registered: 12-2003  |
Stan, I agree--it is an inspiring story! Thanks for sharing this. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 640 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yes, Stan, thanks for sharing those excerpts and summary. Jeremy | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 118 Registered: 2-2005 |
Stan, Thanks for posting the excerpts above. They provide much food for thought. These two quotes especially jumped out at me:
This very day I had an Adventist pastor tell me that parts of the Bible are erroneous in an effort to persuade me that EGW's words shouldn't be scrutinized carefully. I have found the chapter on "Authority and Inerrancy in the Bible" from Grudem's "Bible Doctrines" to be very helpful on this topic. Here's part of what he writes:
I can fully attest to this explanation of Grudem, not from an intellectual argument, but from a spiritual one. For most of my life, I treated the Bible as any other book--it contained a lot of good information, but there were many conflicts and one needed to know where to look to find the "good stuff." In essence, I believed the Bible needed an interpreter. Like the Chagalls, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the treasures contained in the Scriptures. As an example, I have read the book of Ephesians many times in my life, but on my most recent reading, I was totally blown away by the words of the Holy Spirit:
I could go on with example after example, as I am sure many of you can. The book of John is particularly flush with life-changing promises for those who read it with the full faith and assurance of Christ, through the blessed guidance of the Holy Spirit. Spiritual things truly are spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14) and I thank God he has chosen to awaken me to that Spirit. Greg | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 444 Registered: 7-2004 |
Stan, I just printed off all your reviews of the above book you mentioned. Looks good. Being a busy mom I have to pick and chose the times I have to sit and contemplate. I am looking forward to reading your words more in depth. Thanks for sharing. Greg, I really appriecate your thoughts. You are right on. The gift of the Holy Spirit is so remarkable. I love the chapters in John that give us a clear picture of the gifts we have available to us through the Holy Spirit (chapters 13-16). For many years I could never understand why I did not seem to get anything from reading my Bible. I would study with a commentary to help me. As I have become more and more aware of the Holy Spirit in my life, I am finding so much more joy and understanding of God's Word. It finally has dawned on my that I cannot "lean on my own understanding..." It is not about me -- it is all about God and His presence in my life! What a weight off my shoulders. YES!!! Praise God - He has chosen to awaken me to His Spirit! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 296 Registered: 3-2005 |
Greg, Thanks for those points. I was struck by the fact that this couple were new Christians (from an orthodox Jewish background), but they were diligent students of the Bible, even before they attended the SDA church. When they became born again (as Greg points out), they realized every word of scripture was absolutely true. That is why they ultimately were not fooled by the SDA ideology, because they were true Bereans, and when they saw how unbiblical SDA was, they got out. But, I was excited about the fact they equated SDA to all the other blind spiritual New Age, occultic journeys, they had been down, and identified SDA as just another cult. They did not hear their Father's voice, and like true sheep, they were led to a true Bible believing fellowship. SDAs don't accept the doctrine of inerrancy. Whenever you reject this doctrine, you go off on every false path. Stan | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 445 Registered: 7-2004 |
Stan, I loved the story. I, too, was struck by the fact that these people, who were Biblically centered before they started attending the SDA church, became very uncomfortable when faced with needing to add to Scripture before baptism. I am reminded of a very dear non- SDA friend who attended a Revelation Seminar years ago. She said she thoroughly enjoyed the first few nights but became very uncomfortable when the topic moved into the mark of the beast. She said she received such a dark sensation that she got up and left the meeting. To those who are in His Word, He supplies all that is needed to discern His truths. "For we did not follow CLEVERLY DEVISED TALES when we made know to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty." (2 Peter 1:16) It's ONLY Jesus! Greg, You were talking above about the Holy Spirit and the decernment that we receive through His presence in our studies. Peter also talks about this very point in his 2nd letter (1:3,4). "Seeing that His divine power has GRANTED US EVERYTHING pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His PRECIOUS AND MAGNIFICENT PROMISES, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature..." God has not held back!!!! He has given us everything we need to live a holy life: the Holy Spirit and the promises of His Holy Word! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 297 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dd, Thanks for making those excellent points! Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1964 Registered: 12-2003 |
Greg, I also loved those paragraphs from Grudem. We don't hear the Holy Spirit affirming Scripture apart from Scripture, but we receive His affirmation while we are reading it. That reality removes the "figuring out" process so many of us were stuck in. After all, we prided ourselves on being logical and scholaraly in our approach to Scripture. I'll never forget the publisher of Adventist Today at the time we resigned from the magazine saying, "One of the understandings you'll take with you from Adventism is the fact that the Bible is NOT inerrant." I remember looking at him and knowing there was nowhere to go with him on that subject. Praise God for the Bible! Colleen | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 119 Registered: 2-2005 |
Colleen, Thanks for your insight. It's really incomprehensible to me that someone would think the Bible being in error is a precious truth to take with you to another church! By the way, thanks for recommending the Grudem book to me--it's outstanding. Dd, I love your sentence "God has not held back!" We are truly heirs to his kingdom, having been given the Holy Spirit as a down payment of that inheritance (Eph. 1:14)! There is no insecurity for the believer. God keeps his promises, and he has said that we are his prized possession, the ones called by him, the lambs that know his voice, and that we have already inherited the riches of heaven. "And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus." -Eph. 2:7 (NIV) How can we not read such a statement from the Holy Spirit and not be lifted out of our seats in praise? We are already seated with Christ in the heavenly realms! We are focused on the physical, but there is another, unseen world where we have already taken our place with Christ in the heavenlies! Probably the only way to destroy the beauty of this message is to believe that parts of the Bible are either uninspired or in error. Once that door has been opened, everything in Scripture is open for interpretation, correction, or downright disbelief. This very act replaces the security in Christ with the uncertainty of the lost. Praise God for the security we have in knowing we are saved, in Christ, today and for all eternity! Greg |
