| Author | Message | ||
| Buzz Registered user Username: Buzz Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2005 |
http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2005/05/11/local.20050511-sbt-LOCL-A1-Pregnancy_costs.sto I pray for this lady and her students. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 426 Registered: 7-2004 |
That's what happens when you tell SDA administrators the truth! She could have kept quiet and simply had a very healthy premature baby, like so many others have before! | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 431 Registered: 6-2004 |
I'm surprised they didn't stone her. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 243 Registered: 7-2000  |
Folks, lets be fair to SDAs! There are other evangelical Christian church organizations that hold to a similiar policy and standard, and they might choose the same option that the SDA school did. Must we bash SDAs for EVERYTHING? I am weary of this kind of knee-jerk reaction on this forum to everything that SDAs do. When we are not discriminating in our criticisms, we appear to be consumed with hostility, rather than with understanding and love. Bob | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 650 Registered: 10-2004  |
And yet SDA "Pastors" who commit adultery or even rape are not even fired! Jeremy | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 244 Registered: 7-2000 |
"Inconsistency is the only thing in which men are consistent" -- including every one of us. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 428 Registered: 7-2004 |
Bob, I agree with you, both of your posts, which is why I will stand behind a "don't ask, don't tell" status. Unless someone asks, it is often best to keep your discrepancies between you and Jesus. I will say that Christians of all persuasions are more likely to get insensed over sexual sin than they would, say, shady business dealings. All sin is sin. If I still had young children, especially children in the pre or early teen years, I'd want their Christian teachers to be above reproach. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 286 Registered: 3-2005 |
Buzz, Thanks for sharing this story. It is an outrage whether it happened at an SDA school or any other Fundamentalist school, which I agree Bob, could easily happen. SDAs and other Fundamentalist (but I doubt truly evangelical or Reformed church schools) organizations are so consumed by legalism, and following set rules, that they know not the gospel of Christ's love or forgiveness. Jeremy is so correct about the hypocrisy of these organizations, as open adulterers are pastors in these groups! Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 653 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yes, the problem I have with it and what I wanted to point out is the hypocrisy. Yes we are all inconsistent, but the extreme and sickening hypocrisy in this is something that I believe needed to be mentioned. Jeremy | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 54 Registered: 3-2005 |
That's the double standard that I've seen, also. But I must say, it is the same in the general population. Women are the ones who cannot hide their pregnancy and so it's apparent to all "what they've been doing". Men rarely have to "fess up" and just go on without much judgement against them. "Boys will be boys" they say. And even when they are caught in an adulterous affair, it's often the woman who is "at fault" for seducing him. I've seen several pastors transferred to another conference when they were found out. But I'm sure if an unmarried woman pastor turned up pregnant she would be fired immediately. I believe that it is wrong to have sex outside of marriage. But it happens - and every sin we commit is the same - sin is sin, whether it's lying, cheating, stealing, you name it. We are all sinners. And even though Jesus forgives us, we still often have to face the consequences of our bad choices while we are on this earth! With that said - why should this woman be singled out? I don't think firing her was necessarily wrong. But the reason it seems so unfair is that men rarely have to face the same kind of treatment. This hits too close to home for me in several areas. I've had 2 SDA pastors transferred for adultery. At this same SDA church, when my daughter was sexually abused by an "upstanding" member, we were told they would pray for our "situation" and we should have Christian forgiveness for him. He was NEVER disiplined by the Church. When we hired a lawyer we found out he had a record and the pastor and conference knew it, yet they still let this molester work with the youth! When my (now ex)husband had his many affairs, they rallied around him and I was the one scorned. I must not have been a good enough wife. And here's my confession. When I had been divorced for many years, I finally met a man that I planned to marry. As soon as my ex-husband found out about it, he took me back to court to harass me. I was kept in court for almost 10 years with all his legal manuverings. I didn't want to get married until all my legal trouble was behind me. So we dated for about 3 years and eventually we slept together before marriage. We did marry and are still married. And I know what we did was a sin. We decided to change our membership to a new SDA Church. When we submitted our request, mine was denied because I was no longer a Church member. I had been disfellowshipped several years previous and never knew it! No one ever talked to me about it. No one called to "counsel" me. No one mailed me a letter - nothing. All the while I was attending that Church and paying my tithe! My husband's transfer went though just fine. I later heard the story. It seems that someone told the SDA Church that we had slept together before marriage. We hadn't tried to hide that fact. So, quietly I had been disfellowshipped. While I know that I sinned by what I did, I was never given a chance to face the Church body to repent (or not). Either way, they made up their minds without any communicaiton with me. I was never treated any different than before (which wasn't all that great anyway!). When I finally stopped attending that Church, no one called to see what had happened. That really hurt alot, especially because I thought I was still a member. But the worst of all was the fact that my husband was still a member in good standing! Not that I wished bad for him, but why me and not him also! I'm so angry and tired of seeing this double standard. Sorry about my rambling, but this is really a sore issue for me. I've tried so hard to put all that behind me, but it still hurts! The amazing thing is that it wasn't the reason for us leaving the SDA Denomination! How sick is that! I complained that they had disfellowdhipped me without due process and so they reinstated my membership! When we finally studied our way out, I asked for my membership to be dropped again! I'm sure that really confused them. I made it VERY CLEAR that it was not because of any hurt feelings, it was because of their unbiblical doctrines and their false prophet EGW. I would much rather be disciplined by a Bible-based Church than ignored by the SDA Church. We have asked God for forgiveness for our weakness. I know I am saved despite myself! Praise God for Jesus Blood. -tisha | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 288 Registered: 3-2005 |
Tisha, Thanks for sharing your story. We can all rejoice that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin. Stan | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 55 Registered: 3-2005 |
Please forgive me for my tirade above. I don't mean to imply that I think all men are evil. I'm really not a male-basher! Women have their faults as well! We are all sinners and fall way short of perfection. I just want what only Jesus can give - fairness and justice, as well as compassion. OK enough said - thanks for putting up with my anger. -tisha | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 249 Registered: 7-2004  |
Bob, Thanks for saying what needs said once in awhile. Knee jerk reactions to everything SDA can give the impression of bitterness rather than carefully thought out reasons. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1941 Registered: 12-2003  |
Tisha, thank you for sharing your story. I believe that the "double standard" is prevalent everywhere there are people who are not walking with the Lord--and I suspect that's just about everywhere! It's such a painful thing, and irrational... I keep remembering my favorite definition of forgiveness: Forgiving doesn't mean "forgive and forget". We often need to remember in order to avoid future harm. But it does mean giving up my right to get even. God is the only one who can carry that load; it would ultimately kill us. But He is faithful, and His power transforms us in those places of great wounding when we submit them to Him. I'm sorry for what you have suffered, and I continue to pray for you. I'm glad you're here and that you felt safe to share. Bob, thank you also for reminding us about our tone. I believe all of us are sensitive to hypocrisy within Adventism because of--well, our SENSITIVITY to ADventism! I think maybe one reson we react so strongly to it is that we feel the dichotomy between the profession of faith and the actual lack of grace in many instances. When I realize that in a very real way the organization (not necessarily the members) of the church is probably more wordly than spiritual, the hypocrisy doesn't seem nearly so surprising. This is the way humanity is. It has (and continues to be) a long process to disengage enough to see the denomination as a construct of humnans instead of a construct of God. That perspective, though, helps me see the members as standing in great need of knowing Jesus. The less personal identification I feel with the church, the less these hypocrisies seem surprising. Instead, they seem "normal"--as in "natural man"-normal. I continue to pray that the spirit of Adventism will be exposed and broken, that the deceived will be freed to accept Jesus with open hearts, and that the dishonest will be convicted to repent and embrace truth. Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi. I hope you guys don't mind if a newcomer butts in... I am struck by so much here that I wanted to share it. First, How wonderfully refreshing that you can hold each other accountable and stay true to how God would have us think. Second, It is soooo easy to be upset over these things. I am too! And still, Jesus has a greater purpose...unforgiveness tends to cause spiritual stagnation and I'm pretty sure after reading so much on this web site that NO ONE here is looking for spiritual stagnation! Unforgiveness: It's tough and impossible within our own strength, to forgive someone, or in this case an entire organization, that doesn't want to be forgiven because they feel they've done nothing wrong or just refuse to admit it. In either case it makes the forgiving one sided. And that leaves alot of unresolved hurt and anger. So where do we put that? I believe like Colleen that we put it back in the hands of the One who can handle it. I have plenty of stories myself having worked in the local conference office as a teenager. My mom was fired from her job as conference president's secretary because she was at the ICU where my brother was having a frontal lobotamy when he (her boss) thought she should be at a meeting he was holding! So I'm not saying this because I think I'm 'better than thou'! But because I so completely understand that what happens there IS SO WRONG! But to stay here, in these feelings, doesn't allow God full and free access to our hearts and minds. I am reserving a part of myself for 'just a little' anger. Third: Maybe this is a pathway God can use to bring this woman to an understanding of the problems within SDAism. 'Mysterious Ways' you know.  I woud like to pray that it will not be a turning point away from Christianity for her, but only TO God. Pray that she doesn't put the face and personality of God on the people who have treated her so poorly and un-Christlike. This DOES happen all the time and in all places.. Christian or otherwise. We are not called to decide what others are doing is right or wrong, but we are called to focus our eyes on Jesus. I was just debating with an Adventist friend yesterday and said, "You know it's all about FOCUS...focus, focus, focus. It's either on me or it's on God. There's no middle ground!" (Just to be clear, I'm preaching to myself! I struggle with this a lot and today particularly I've been impressed that it's time to let it go.) patriar | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1944 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thanks for sharing, Patriar! I like your comment to your friend: it's all about focus! It's either me or God--there's no middle ground. God really does let us know when we need to surrender things to Him. I'm thankful He's faithful to complete the work He began in me, because I think I'd just procrastinate if it were up to me...! Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 429 Registered: 7-2004 |
I just re-read some of the things I said above and I realized how hard hearted it must sound. My view of the ever-present SDA double-standard that I grew up with has formed my responses, particularly when it comes to the type of situation presented. I'm not going to take back anything I said, because my own experience was that the safest way to deal with the SDA beaurocracy is the don't ask don't tell method. However, the young lady in question was a married woman. Yes, the timing of her pregnancy is such that it reveals that indiscretions have occurred, but she and her husband had made things right. It truly is a situation where the innocent should cast the first stone. I've yet to meet many innocents. I pray, as you others have already stated, that she will not turn away from Jesus. I pray she has run into his arms instead. I feel helpless and frustrated every time I hear about a situation like this--I'd love to be able to make things all better for the ones who have been hurt, but the only thing any of us can do is pray that Jesus will intervene and cradle this child of God and show that what has happened to her was not in His plan. I'm just babbling now. I once knew a wise woman who very phylosophically said that first babies can be born at any time after the wedding. Subsequent pregnancies take nine months. Forgiveness should be a built-in aspect of all Christians because we have all been forgiven. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 289 Registered: 3-2005 |
I just re-read the story linked above. What am I missing here? Yes, this couple fell short of God's ideal for marriage. But this was a couple who was committed to each other, and are now married, as Belva just said above. What difference does 2 months make? No, I am not excusing the sin, but the magnitude of this sin seems so small in comparison to the real sins that these Fundamentalist organizations make. Also she was teaching 1st graders. Certainly, the details could have discretely been avoided so the kids wouldn't have to know. Desmond Ford, who had a large impact on why I am a former SDA, said it so well: " A sure sign of legalism is when sexual sin is considered so much worse than other sins. But, he also helped make Bob's point above, and that is that SDA flesh is no worse than anybody else's flesh, and he has a point. Like Bob, rather, than make this a uniquely SDA problem, I believe it is a serious problem with Fundamentalism in general. You can find so much similar Galatianism and Arminianism in all of these organizations, and i think they all need to be faulted, not just SDAs. Also, Bob, I agree about the knee-jerk reaction we all have to attack SDA. I have sure been guilty of that, and I do believe it is important to be careful about how we state our views. Stan | ||
| Somethinfishy Registered user Username: Somethinfishy Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2004 |
Just a note on Bob's comments about the consistency of inconsistencies: Last year I taught in an SDA school with two distinct groups of students. About half came from SDA homes, and about half from a "sunday-keeping," charasmatic church. Only 2 students came from non-"religious" homes. One of those students came from a homosexual family. The girl was not homosexual. She was professing a relationship with Jesus, and a desire to be in a Christian environment (as opposed to public school). Of course, due to professional conduct, no staff at the school were allowed to divulge her family information, but when it did come out, it was the NON-SDA parents that were upset, saying that the girl should be removed from the school immediately, or at least all the parents notified, so they could make a "parent council" decision on the matter (they somehow thought they had the power to do that...???). When their demands were not met, they all pulled their children from the school, and we lost half of our students in a matter of days. I have to say that when I was first informed of the girl's family background, I thought that when it eventually came out, it would be the more "conservative," "traditional" SDA families that would threaten to, and even pull their kids. But it was not. I saw such a void of the love of Christ for that girl after "the truth" about her family came out. The non-SDA parents/teacher aide's that came to the school all of a sudden treated her like she had leprosy. They were constantly watching her for signs that she was attracted to the younger female students, as if she was going to molest them, or something. It was aweful. It's easy to judge the teacher in the above story, and it's easy to judge the school. I attended a non-SDA Christian school through most of my elementary and high school years, and I am 100% certain that they would have reacted the same way. I had a teacher whose marriage ended after only a year, and she had to go through all sorts of meetings with the board, etc., to ascertain that it was not of her choice or volition that the divorce happened, and that it was her husband that left her. If she had left her husband for any reason other than adultery, or abuse, she would have been released from her job. The difference in my teacher's situation was that she UNDERSTOOD that the school was upholding Biblical standards, and appreciated their willingness to take hard action, even though it was difficult, and probably painful for her. Their procedures and checks with her meant that the school actually acted on what it said it believed. Yes, people make mistakes. Yes, God forgives. But sometimes we still have to live with the consequences of our actions. That's why there are Christians in jail, that's why David and Bathsheba lost their son. I feel badly for this teacher, and pray that she seeks the will of God in this difficult time, as well as the powers that be. I think it was right of her to be honest, and her honesty does not go unnoticed by the One whose opinion matters most. Fishy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 878 Registered: 7-2003  |
After reading this story, I'm thankful at the response of those within my church when they found out I was pregnant (and not married). You will never know how many women came to me and said they "had" to get married, even my own step-mom told me she had been pregnant when she got married. All of the judgment and condemnation I feared just wasn't there. To be sure, when I spoke to my mentors (even though they had lived together before they got married), he didn't mince words, but he said my attitude wasn't one of justifying my actions, which helped. I could not be in a visible (such as praise team) or leadership role until they were comfortable I had dealt with the issue spiritually. As Tisha talks about above, B didn't have to tell anyone in his church until he felt like it. And when he did, his pastor gave him a shower. He still taught the youth, led music, didn't miss a beat. His comment was they had "a lot" of kids born to women who weren't married and it was no big deal. It was very difficult to be pregnant at work, where it was more difficult to hide, knowing I had a reputation as a Christian. I still get angry at B sometimes that he wasn't more concerned with protecting me, but know as well that I never would have married him in those circumstances. It is very complex, emotionally. People sin every day and stumble with attitudes and things inside no one but God sees. As Tisha so eloquently said, women are easy targets in these situations. Next, we'll return to the scarlet letter.... How are we serious about sin and graceful at the same time...? |
