Author |
Message |
Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 639 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 8:00 pm: | |
Wow, that is so amazing what they did, sending the tithe envelopes to you! (Although, it shouldn't be surprising, I guess.) And yes, it is disgusting. Wow. Jeremy |
Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1471 Registered: 3-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 8:23 pm: | |
And I was not a member of the SDA church. I had started paying tithe because I was thinking of rejoining it again, then God stepped in the way to show me the way to Him and the rest is history. Diana |
Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1472 Registered: 3-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 8:38 pm: | |
Jeremy, Can you look up something in EGW writings for me. I seem to remember she wrote something about the beautiful jewels were on the surface of the earth before the flood and another one I want to know about is she said something about where the deserts are now is where the Garden of Eden used to be. The Bible says 4 rivers flowed out of the garden, Gen 2:10-14. The rivers are Pishon, Gihon, Tigris, Euphrates. Does she say anything about this. I was thinking about this the other day, so I am curious. I know the stuff about the jewels is not in the Bible. Thanks. Diana |
Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1928 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 9:22 pm: | |
Tithe envelopes?! How bold! I don't blame you for feeling disgusted. Colleen |
Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 641 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 9:53 pm: | |
Diana, here is an example of what she wrote about jewels, etc., before the Flood:
quote:The entire surface of the earth was changed at the Flood. A third dreadful curse rested upon it in consequence of sin. As the water began to subside, the hills and mountains were surrounded by a vast, turbid sea, Everywhere were strewn the dead bodies of men and beasts. The Lord would not permit these to remain to decompose and pollute the air, therefore He made of the earth a vast burial ground. A violent wind which was caused to blow for the purpose of drying up the waters, moved them with great force, in some instances even carrying away the tops of the mountains and heaping up trees, rocks, and earth above the bodies of the dead. By the same means the silver and gold, the choice wood and precious stones, which had enriched and adorned the world before the Flood, and which the inhabitants had idolized, were concealed from the sight and search of men, the violent action of the waters piling earth and rocks upon these treasures, and in some cases even forming mountains above them. God saw that the more He enriched and prospered sinful men, the more they would corrupt their ways before Him. The treasures that should have led them to glorify the bountiful Giver had been worshiped, while God had been dishonored and despised." (Patriarchs and Prophets, page 107, paragraph 4.)
I couldn't find the second one. I think I heard before that she wrote that where the deserts are is where the most sinful places were before the Flood or something like that. I did find a bunch of quotes blaspheming and degrading Jesus, though, and saying how sinful and of "no moral worth" He was and how Adam was so much holier than Jesus!!! Talk about disgusting.... That woman was Satan-possessed!! I really believe that--her own husband even claimed it! Anyone who would write such horrible things like that about Jesus had to have been Satan-possessed. The more I think about it all, the more disgusted I am...it's sooo horrible the things she wrote about Jesus....!!! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on May 10, 2005) |
Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic
Post Number: 85 Registered: 2-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 4:26 am: | |
Jeremy, Could you share some of those quotes/sources about Jesus? I'm compiling a collection of EGW quotes to draw from, should I need them, when I "come out" about leaving the church. These would be most helpful. Thanks! Heretic |
Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 277 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 7:29 am: | |
Also, Jeremy, Did those contemporaries of EGW such as Canright (who was opposed to her in every way) ever talk about EGW possibly being possessed? I am interested that you mention her husband saying that she was "Satan Possessed", and would be interested in those references. When I read Canright on EGW, who knew her well, I just don't remember him talking about her being possessed. Thanks, Stan |
Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 643 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:29 am: | |
Stan, Actually, Canright is the one who in his book on EGW quotes from the "Kellogg Interview," where J.H. Kellogg testifies that James White told him that Ellen was Satan-possessed at times. Here is a quote from D.M. Canright's book:
quote:On page 130 the doctor says Mrs. White said to him: "Dr. Kellogg, I sometimes doubt my own experience." That was in 1881. This shows that all along, at times, she was not sure that her visions were of God. On the same page the doctor says that Elder White came to him one day and said: "Dr. Kellogg, it is wonderful; my wife sometimes has the most remarkable experiences; the Lord comes near her and she has the most remarkable experiences; and then again the very devil comes in and takes possession of her." These statements throw some remarkable sidelights on the life of Mrs. White, and give additional proof that she was not inspired. --The Life of Ellen White, by D.M. Canright, Chapter 12, "Her High Claims Disproved"
And now I will quote directly from the "Kellogg File" itself (the interview of J.H. Kellogg by several SDA officials shortly before he was disfellowshipped; the meeting took place on October 7, 1907, and was reported stenographically):
quote:Dr. Kellogg: I stood stiffly against that thing. I refused to send my resignation in. Some men are alive today that have got that very weakness. W. C. White has got all the weakness of his father without the greatness; and that is just where the trouble is in this game. Elder White, when he got to going on a wrong track, and found he could not do a thing, turned square about, acknowledged it, and said, "I have made a mistake." Dr. Kellogg: He did and he didnít. He believed them just as other folks did. He was a peculiar man. He came to me one day and said, "Dr. Kellogg" -- he was telling me of his trials; he and Sister White were having a quarrel. He said, "Brother Kellogg, it is wonderful; my wife sometimes has the most remarkable experiences; the Lord comes near to her and she has the most remarkable experiences; and then again the very devil comes in and takes possession of her." Sister White herself, I want to tell you, has gone through a very peculiar experience. Twenty-nine or thirty years ago she was going through a very peculiar experience, and I think - 87 - she was very much depressed. She had had troubles; she and the Elder had had a quarrel; he had gone off and left her, and for two weeks he would not go out to the old brick house by the mill pond to sleep with her. He would not stay in the house with her. She said, "Dr. Kellogg, I sometimes doubt my own experience." All the while the Elder was an erratic man, had had several strokes of apoplexy, and of course his conditions were abnormal. But Sister White backed him up for a long time. He fought me for three years, went all around the country calling me a thief and a liar, and Sister White backed him up for a long time, but after while took my side. --The Kellogg File, pages 86-87
Also in the Kellogg interview, he talks about other occultic-sounding experiences of Ellen. Although Kellogg was still under EGW's hold and thought that she was a prophet, even though he admitted that her writings/testimonies couldn't be trusted and weren't reliable! Regarding J.H. Kellogg, here is an amazing quote from EGW from a letter that was actually written to Kellogg himself!
quote:I have seen that Satan's power over him has not been broken. Those who choose to sustain the man who so greatly dishonors God and has stood directly in the way of His work, will themselves become so deceived that their work will not be accepted by God. I have felt reluctant to say these things, but I know the Lord would not have souls endangered any longer by Dr. Kellogg. Tares have been sown in the minds of God's people, and as a result of this some have given up the truth, some have become infidels. The misrepresentations that Dr. Kellogg has made of the work God has given me to do, have made them infidels.--Letter 116, 1905, pp. 1,3,10. (To J. H. Kellogg, April 22, 1905.) White Estate Washington, D. C. December 10, 1981 --Manuscript Releases, Volume Eleven, page 320, paragraph 3.
Notice that it was not released to the public until 1981! Heretic, I will try to find the quotes and post them soon. Jeremy |
Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 644 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:35 am: | |
Heretic, here are the quotes. Some of them are lengthy, because it's just paragraph after paragraph of blasphemy.
quote:Satan knew what he had lost. He now feared that his empire over the world was to be contested, his right disputed, and his power broken. He knew through prophecy, that a Savior was predicted and that his kingdom would not be established in earthly triumph and with worldly honor and display. He knew that ancient prophecies foretold a kingdom to be established by the Prince of Heaven upon the earth, which he claimed as his dominion. His kingdom would embrace all the kingdoms of the world, and then his power and his glory would cease and he receive his retribution for the sins he had introduced into the world and for the misery he had brought upon man. He knew that everything which concerned his prosperity was pending upon his success or failure in overcoming Christ with his temptations in the wilderness. He brought to bear upon Christ every artifice and force of his powerful temptations to allure him from his allegiance. (Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 03-03-1874, paragraph 23.) Christ was not in as favorable a position in the desolate wilderness to endure the temptations of Satan as was Adam when he was tempted in Eden. The Son of God humbled himself and took man's nature after the race had wandered four thousand years from Eden, and from their original state of purity and uprightness. Sin had been making its terrible marks upon the race for ages; and physical, mental, and moral degeneracy prevailed throughout the human family. When Adam was assailed by the tempter in Eden he was without the taint of sin. He stood in the strength of his perfection before God. All the organs and faculties of his being were equally developed, and harmoniously balanced. Christ, in the wilderness of temptation, stood in Adam's place to bear the test he failed to endure. Here Christ overcame in the sinner's behalf, four thousand years after Adam turned his back upon the light of his home. Separated from the presence of God, the human family had been departing every successive generation, farther from the original purity, wisdom, and knowledge which Adam possessed in Eden. Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. Adam was surrounded with everything his heart could wish. Every want was supplied. There was no sin, and no signs of decay in glorious Eden. Angels of God conversed freely and lovingly with the holy pair. The happy songsters caroled forth their free, joyous songs of praise to their Creator. The peaceful beasts in happy innocence played about Adam and Eve, obedient to their word. Adam was in the perfection of manhood, the noblest of the Creator's work. He was in the image of God, but a little lower than the angels. In what contrast is the second Adam as he entered the gloomy wilderness to cope with Satan single-handed. Since the fall the race had been decreasing in size and physical strength, and sinking lower in the scale of moral worth, up to the period of Christ's advent to the earth. And in order to elevate fallen man, Christ must reach him where he was. He took human nature, and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He, who knew no sin, became sin for us. He humiliated himself to the lowest depths of human woe, that he might be qualified to reach man, and bring him up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him. [...] Satan had been at war with the government of God, since he first rebelled. His success in tempting Adam and Eve in Eden, and introducing sin into the world, had emboldened this arch foe, and he had proudly boasted to the heavenly angels that when Christ should appear, taking man's nature, he would be weaker than himself, and he would overcome him by his power. He exulted that Adam and Eve in Eden could not resist his insinuations when he appealed to their appetite. The inhabitants of the old world he overcame in the same manner, through the indulgence of lustful appetite and corrupt passions. Through the gratification of appetite he had overthrown the Israelites. He boasted that the Son of God himself who was with Moses and Joshua was not able to resist his power, and lead the favored people of his choice to Canaan; for nearly all who left Egypt died in the wilderness. Also the meek man, Moses, he had tempted to take to himself glory which God claimed. David and Solomon, who had been especially favored of God, he had induced, through the indulgence of appetite and passion, to incur God's displeasure. And he boasted that he could yet succeed in thwarting the purpose of God in the salvation of man through Jesus Christ. In the wilderness of temptation Christ was without food forty days. Moses had, on especial occasions, been thus long without food. But he felt not the pangs of hunger. He was not tempted and harassed by a vile and powerful foe, as was the Son of God. He was elevated above the human. He was especially sustained by the glory of God which enshrouded him. Satan had succeeded so well in deceiving the angels of God, and in the fall of noble Adam, that he thought that in Christ's humiliation he should be successful in overcoming him. He looked with pleased exultation upon the result of his temptations and the increase of sin in the continued transgression of God's law for more than four thousand years. He had worked the ruin of our first parents, and brought sin and death into the world, and had led to ruin multitudes of all ages, countries, and classes. He had, by his power, controlled cities and nations until their sin provoked the wrath of God to destroy them by fire, water, earthquakes, sword, famine and pestilence. By his subtlety and untiring efforts he had controlled the appetite and excited and strengthened the passions, to so fearful a degree, that he had defaced, and almost obliterated the image of God in man. His physical and moral dignity were in so great a degree destroyed, that he bore but a faint resemblance in character, and noble perfection of form, to dignified Adam in Eden. (Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 07-28-1874, paragraphs 1-5, 10-12.) Satan had pointed to Adam's sin as proof that God's law was unjust, and could not be obeyed. In our humanity, Christ was to redeem Adam's failure. But when Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation. Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. (The Desire of Ages, page 117, paragraphs 1-2.) The strength of the temptation to indulge appetite can be measured only by the inexpressible anguish of our Redeemer in that long fast in the wilderness. He knew that the indulgence of perverted appetite would so deaden man's perceptions that sacred things could not be discerned. Adam fell by the indulgence of appetite; Christ overcame by the denial of appetite. And our only hope of regaining Eden is through firm self-control. If the power of indulged appetite was so strong upon the race, that, in order to break its hold the divine Son of God, in man's behalf, had to endure a fast of nearly six weeks, what a work is before the Christian! Yet, however great the struggle, he may overcome. By the help of that divine power which withstood the fiercest temptations that Satan could invent, he, too, may be entirely successful in his warfare with evil, and at last may wear the victor's crown in the kingdom of God. (Counsels on Diet and Foods, page 167, paragraph 1.)
I don't know which is worse, the degrading of Jesus or the exalting of satan in those quotes!!!! ONLY SATAN would inspire the words "Satan had succeeded so well"--the BIBLE NEVER TALKS THAT WAY ABOUT SATAN!!!!! She even makes it sound like Jesus was the UNDERDOG when He was tempted by satan!! Jeremy |
Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 278 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:53 am: | |
Wow, Jeremy, Thanks. There is the actual proof of what James White believed about her. It does make you wonder. Stan |
Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic
Post Number: 86 Registered: 2-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 2:26 pm: | |
Jeremy, Thanks so much for those quotes. You really are the go-to guy for EGW resources. I appreciate the work you do here. Okay, Ellen, so I get it...Christ was a degenerate by nature...Satan was all-powerful...Christ's purpose on earth was to vindicate God, to show us how to save ourselves. Another telling statement was: "Christ overcame by the denial of appetite. And our only hope of regaining Eden is through firm self-control. If the power of indulged appetite was so strong upon the race, that, in order to break its hold the divine Son of God, in man's behalf, had to endure a fast of nearly six weeks, what a work is before the Christian!" Hello!? The work has already been done for us! The ONLY way of regaining Eden is through self-control? Or in other words, by works only? Wow. Does any of this sound Christian to you?! Unbelievable. All I can do is lower my head and shake it in disgust. (Message edited by Heretic on May 11, 2005) |
Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1932 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 2:40 pm: | |
Thank you so much for posting the quotes, Jeremy. You're right--she completely degrades JEsus' divinity. It is right here that we see the problem with the Adventist view of the "spirit". If Jesus had a living spirit when he was born instead of a dead spirit as we do before we are born again, then the issue of His being "like us" would be moot. Jesus was GOD; He was born spiritually alive. Satan never saw Jesus as merely a man weakened by sinful inheritance. Satan always knew Who Jesus was--and they were by no means similar. There's so much wrong with these description of Jesus--and I agree, Jeremy--these ideas could only come from Satan. The point of the 40 days (well PART of the point) was that Jesus was the perfect Israel. In Him were fulfilled all the divine expectations of Israel which they failed to fulfill during their 40 years of wilderness wandering. They gave in to appettite and grumbling and greed. Jesus went to the wilderness and actually WAS the perfect Israel. Remember, the Holy Spirit led him to the Wilderness to be tempted. Jesus' life wasn't about proving that humanity could resist sin. His life was about fulfilling and redeeming all the shadows of the Old Testament and demonstrating that only God in human form could be what the law and the prophets demanded. He did in His life what no human--not even perfect ADam--could do. He did life for us all. Satan never thought he was equal to Jesus. Did he try to cause Him to fail? You bet! Did he really think he was dealing with mere humanity? No way. I have to agree, Jeremy--EGW's teaching about Jesus is truly devious. I praise the Father for giving us His Son and for leaving His Spirit among us! Through Him we can attain righteousness; through Him we are reconciled to God! Jesus alone bore the weight and price of our sin--not by means of his "degenerated" human body, but by somehow "becoming sin" for us on the cross. Praise God! Colleen |
Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 416 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 3:09 pm: | |
Do any of you remember sitting in Bible Doctrines class when this doctrine was being taught? I sat as my teacher read what EGW had said about Jesus' sinful nature and I was quaking in my boots. I knew how easily I succombed to temptation, and if Jesus' nature was as weak as mine, I simply could not fathom how he made it out of childhood sin-free. I'm sure my first temptation had to do with a toy or a candy, and my rotten human nature turned me into a little tyrrant. It simply didn't make any sense to me. Then the teacher quoted some other statement of EGW to explain away those baby days and temptations and it said something like the Holy Spirit was looking out for him then, and every time he was tempted the Holy Spirit would flash through humanity and he would refuse the temptation decidedly. Jeremy, do you happen to know where that quotation is? Okay, now I was jealous. Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit do that for me when I was tempted? Maybe because I misunderstood the purpose of the Holy Spirit! Oh, now I'm getting a headache just trying to rephrase what I used to understand to be "The Truth." At any rate, either Jesus was born with the Holy Spirit spark in his human flesh, like Adam was created, or he was born without it like me. If he was born without it like me, then how could the Holy Spirit flash through humanity and refuse the temptation? The only time I've had that victorious event in my life was after I had fully accepted Jesus as my Saviour. That was when the Holy Spirit moved in, and my life is much more settled now, temptation-wise. No, I'm not without sin, don't expect to be until I see Jesus face-to-face, but I live a much more victorious life with the Holy Spirit in my life. The victory is not mine, however, it all belongs to my Helper--Holy Spirit, and my Jesus. Give me Jesus Belva |
Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic
Post Number: 87 Registered: 2-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 3:22 pm: | |
Just a question: If Christ's nature was sinful, could He truly be considered a "perfect sacrifice"? If it wasn't a perfect sacrifice then how could He have saved us? It's not computing with me. Heretic |
Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 368 Registered: 5-2002
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 3:24 pm: | |
Bear with me as I rant. I will apologize in advance if the following offends anyone, but it is intended to make a clear point about this horrendous doctrine that Jesus had a fallen nature. If taken to its inevitable logical conclusion, the doctrine that Jesus had a sinful nature and experineced sinful desires in all the same ways that mankind does results in things like this: Jesus struggled with ideations of suicide. Jesus at some point wanted to murder his parents. Jesus was tempted to rape the woman at the well. Jesus was intrigued by witchcraft. Jesus wanted homosexual relations with one or more of his disciples. Jesus had urges to molest the little children that came to him. Now, these things may seem absurd and outrageous, but if indeed Jesus had to experience the same sinful lusts as all of mankind, well just look around you at the sins people are commiting these days. According to this heretical doctrine, Jesus had to want to do these things too, right? Some may say I am using the absurd to demonstrate the absurd and, to a point, they are right. But if you think hard about this doctrine, what other conclusion can you draw? Yes, it is ABSURD!
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Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 369 Registered: 5-2002
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 3:43 pm: | |
I hope that made you bristle a bit. The mere process of writing it down made me righteously indignant myself. But I hope it helped demonstrate the evil nature of that doctrine which is where the "Jesus had a sinful nature" folks logically must end up if they adhere to it. Let me add that Jesus is God and sin is abhorrent to God. When Jesus was in the flesh, He was no less God and sin was no less abhorrent to Him! My understanding of the Greek word used for "tempted" involves the concept of "testing" or "proving pure", as in pure gold. It does not convey the idea of lusting after that which we cannot have, or considering the performance of an act that clearly violates conscience for the purpose of satisfying some immoral desire. Like pure gold, Jesus was "tested" to "prove" to us that He is pure God! He was not "tempted to sin" and made to "overcome the lusts of the flesh". BIG difference, folks! Does anyone here know more about the rendering of the Greek word that is translated "tempted" in this text? |
Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha
Post Number: 52 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 3:45 pm: | |
The more I understand what the SDA Church really teaches, the more abhorrent I find it. How could I not have seen this sooner? I am SO GLAD to be away from all that. I want to scream and shout to all the SDA's I know that they are being deceived! I want to yell "RUN". It makes my blood boil I get so MAD. OK, I'll calm down - a little bit anyway! -tisha |
Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 370 Registered: 5-2002
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 3:53 pm: | |
You didn't see it any sooner for the same reason we all didn't... Christ hadn't removed your blinders yet. Now you know a little about how Jesus felt when He saw the moneychangers in His temple... Right there with ya, Tisha! Breathe...one...two...three..breathe... ;>) |
Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 646 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 4:00 pm: | |
Just to comment a little bit more on the quotes I posted...I know EGW sometimes makes it sound like Jesus and Satan are equals, but these quotes shocked me because here she seems to make Jesus and Satan NOT be equals--but exalts Satan above Jesus!! Also, she makes it sound like Jesus bore our sins way back in the wilderness--and that it made him have sinful tendencies... She seems to even imply that His "becoming sin" was something literal, like He actually literally became sin--much like what SDA Pastor Gary Venden in Glendale, Arizona has taught--only he had it occurring in the Garden of Gethsemane. Belva, I could not find any quotes about the Holy Spirit flashing through Jesus' humanity. She does talk about "divinity" flashing through humanity a bunch of times, though I don't know if she does in regard to when He was young. But what she means by that is His own divinity, I think. She writes, "For a moment the divinity of Christ flashed through His guise of humanity." (The Desire of Ages, page 707, paragraph 2.) She didn't believe that the Son of God actually became human--she believed that the "man" "Jesus" was not actually divine--He just had the Son of God inhabiting Him! In fact, she taught that the "man" Jesus was no more divine than we are! Here is proof that she taught this Gnostic Anti-Christ view of Jesus Christ's divinity/humanity: "The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ; it is His representative. Here is the divine agency that carries conviction to hearts. When the power of His Spirit is revealed through the servants of God, we behold divinity flashing through humanity." (Manuscript Releases, Volume Thirteen, page 313, paragraph 3.) So we see that EGW uses the exact same phrase for US as she does for JESUS!! Heretic, Here are a few more short, to-the-point quotes that may be helpful for you to have also, including a couple more "only hope" quotes.
quote:"Without perfection of character no one can enter the pearly gates of the city of God, for if, with all our imperfections, we were permitted to enter that city, there would soon be in heaven a second rebellion. We must first be tried and chosen, and found faithful and true. Upon the purification of our character rests our only hope of eternal life." (Sermons and Talks, Volume Two, page 294, paragraph 3.) "Only by the inexpressible anguish which Christ endured can we estimate the evil of unrestrained indulgence. His example declares that our only hope of eternal life is through bringing the appetites and passions into subjection to the will of God." (The Desire of Ages, page 122, paragraph 2.) "There will always be obstacles before us, but we are to follow our Leader, and meet our difficulties unitedly, hand in hand. There is only one way to heaven. We must walk in the footsteps of Jesus, doing His works, even as He did the works of His Father. We must study His ways, not man's ways; we must obey His will, not our own. Walk carefully. Do not go ahead of Christ. Make no move without consulting your Leader." (The Upward Look, page 141, paragraph 4.) "Those teachers who ignore works and would teach that all you have to do is to believe in Christ, are rebuked by the Saviour of the world. Faith is made perfect by works. The cry will come to us from the servers of Mammon: You are too exacting; we cannot be saved by works. Was Christ exacting? He placed the salvation of man, not upon his believing, not upon his profession, but upon his faith made perfect by his works. Doing, and not saying merely, was required of the followers of Christ. Principle is always exacting." (The Signs of the Times, 01-15-1880, paragraph 6.)
Jeremy |
Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 417 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 4:58 pm: | |
Jeremy, that is the quote, and I thank you for locating it for me. There are, now and then, places where she acknowledged Jesus' divine nature, but in such a was as to rob him of his royalty. For me, that "divinity flashing through humanity" statement was one of those. Essentially she was saying that Jesus was fully human just like you and me except where it counted. At those moments he had a "get out of jail free" card. I have no problem with Jesus being divine. He was, and he is. The comparison to a perfect, unblemished lamb substantiates this. I was just confused by the fully human Jesus who had that special spark of divinity that could protect him against failure. Now I'm grateful to know that he was fully God while he walked this planet. That fact made my salvation possible. This confusion about why Jesus became human, and the belittling of his sacrificial death and resurrection, making it more important to see him as an example for our behavior--all of that--is why the Adventist view of Jesus' mission on earth is hard to swallow. I've already stated how ridiculous it is to see him as our elder brother, our example of behavior. I praise Jesus for coming to earth to live, die and then arise victorious over death an sin. His perfection gives me comfort now. As an SDA it used to frustrate me--I know, that doesn't make sense, but that was a gut reaction that I had from time to time when I heard teaching on his mission on earth. I think the frustration I felt was sparked by my innate knowledge that I'd never be able to live perfectly lawfully, especially when I was supposed to live perfectly in thought and motive. Give me Jesus Belva |
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