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| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 59 Registered: 1-2005 |
First, this post is a little morbid, and a little long. But I think itís relevant in how Iíve seen some Adventists behave, and many other Christians, for that matter. And it weighs heavily on me. (When you read the letter excerpts, do they sound like anyone you know?) On New Years Eve, 2001, in my state, a 15 year-old named Isaac Grimes slit the throat of his ìbest friendî Tony, and lured Tonyís grandparents to their execution-style murders. After plea bargains all around, Isaac and two other conspirators were each sentenced to 50+ years in jail. To compound the tragedy, around 7 months later, Tonyís mother Jennifer, got drunk and high, drove the wrong way on the interstate, and plowed head-on into another car, instantly killing a man. Sheís now serving 10 years for vehicular homicide. Now both of Tonyís parents, Jennifer and Charles, are suing Isaac, the other 2 conspirators, and all of their parents for wrongful death. Since there were no actual criminal trials involved, theyíre using this lawsuit in part to try and get some answers as to ìWHY?!?î So what has Isaac been up to these past 4 four years in jail? Why, heís turned Christian, of course. Now donít get me wrong. Iím not knocking it when inmates, even convicted murderers, find Christ. But itís what they do with their new found faith thatís very telling. Here are some excerpts from a letter that Isaac recently wrote to Charles: ìI will value your forgiveness greatly should you choose to give it. If you donít, however, it wonít bother me in terms of how I feel about me ñ but it is painful to see you and your brothers harboring unforgiveness because of how much you hurt yourselves by doing so. (God has forgiven me, and if someoneís opinion of me differs from His, whose should I value more?) ìLetís start with the topic of the civil suit. Whether I ëwiní or ëloseí is quite irrelevant to me. I have no assets and no income ñ but rest assured that your attorney fees will be paid, quite likely by you in the event that you canít find someone with assets to sue. ìYouíre in a perilous position spirituallyÖ Thereís the lies in the civil suit youíre a part of ñ youíre pretending and maintaining that itís true; youíre living a lie. The very fact that youíre living a lie indicates that youíre under the kingdom of the father of lies, the devil. ìOpen up that Bible and read Matthew 18:23-36. In this parable Jesus teaches that the forgiveness of God though freely given to repentant sinners, nevertheless remains conditional, according to a personís willingness to forgive others. See also Hebrews 12:15; James 3:11,14; and especially Ephesians 4:31-32. Again, I donít hold this against you ñ I just donít want you to continue hurting yourself and shutting yourself out of the kingdom of heaven. ìOnce again, Iím sorry about killing your son.î And from Isaac to Jennifer: ìYou know what, Jenny? Weíve both screwed up our lives. There isnít anyone who hasnít! We canít make it on our own, but with God, anything is possible! ìWrite if ya have any questions, comments or need a Bible or anything.î This young Christian(?) is wrong on so many levels, I donít know where to begin. A good Christian freely admits that thereís a complete difference between forgiveness and pardon. Even when God pardons our sins, the pardon is suspended; we often still suffer the consequences of our sins while still on this earth. Especially for Christians, itís totally inexcusable to ask someone to pardon us for our wrongs. For those lucky times when we are pardoned by someone, it should be of their own free will, and unasked for. (And believe me, Iíve been this lucky more times then I deserve!) When we sin, it is often as a harm that we do to others. Confession should be very public, at least to those we have harmed, and, as the ìotherî good book says, ì[We] Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.î This young man is ramming spiritual advice down the throats of his victims; heís saying ìSo sue me. I got nothing.î; and heís flaunting his ìinner peaceî in their faces. Instead, a good Christian would fully disclose the nature of his sin; he would be eager to make restitution, if thatís whatís called for; and he would be very, very humble. Man, I cannot stand it when Christians hide behind their religion. I cannot stand these people who smugly walk away from their confession, leaving a trail of unresolved tragedy and mayhem behind them! Who the H*#@ do they think they are? You know, whenever and however the final reckoning takes place, there will be a lot of church leaders and a lot of so called Christians who will have a lot of explaining to do: ìHow could you just walk away from your wrongs? And how could you just walk away in My name? And how could you encourage your followers to do this?î | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1460 Registered: 3-2004  |
I used to be like that, but I read your "other good book" and God used it to start to change me. It cleared lots of the SDA cobwebs out of my brain so when God opened a door I could walk through it into the light and arms of Jesus. And I do not like it when people hide behind religion. Thank God I do not have to hide any longer. Jesus blood covers me and I am saved. Jesus, you are awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1914 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, isn't that a relief? I no longer have to hide! I was pondering this very fact recently--I can't even remember what prompted me. When we truly accept Jesus and His forgiveness, we realize that we've no more reason to hide. We are whole in Jesus, washed clean. There's no reason to hide-- every human on earth is inherently guilty. We are neither worse nor better than any other. Without Jesus, we're dead! With Him, the past becomes cause for rejoicing because Jesus redeems it. Speaking of redemption, a former colleague of mine from Arrowhead Christian Academy spoke to me after church today. He teaches the spiritual life class which plans the weekly chapels. The students have planned that this Wednesday's chapel will deal with divorce, and 2 or 3 kids whose parents have been divorced are going to talk about it. Apparently one of the concerns they brought up is that there are quite a few children of divorce who live in interal shame and fear because they and their parents have been told by other Christians that if their parents have remarried, they're living in sin. Apparently there is a significant enough number of kids feeling this way that they want someone to address the issue. They wanted a teacher to speak about divorce, etc., but the teacher in charge of this class said it might be too awkward for a current faculty to discuss this issue in chapel. The kids (most of whom are seniors) told him they wanted to ask me to talk. They all know I'm a stepmom, and many of them know I've been married before. So, this Wednesday at 8:00 I'm going to address the issue in chapel at ACA. I would so appreciate your prayers that I will say what God wants me to say and honor Him. I also want Him to show me clearly what I need to address and to give me words to speak clearly. I want to address the MAJOR issue of God redeeming our past when we submit it to Him and acknowledge our guilt. I think I also want to address the issue that God brings unexpected blessings into our lives out of the ashes of our tragedies when we trust Him with them--i.e., relief from abusive situations sometimes, nurturing step-parents sometimes, etc. I admit it--I'm a bit nervous about this, but it's a subject that needs to be addressed. I know how many of my students over the years were clearly in painful situations. They need hope, and they need to experience trusting God and inviting Him into their pain as opposed to becoming brittle "enforcers" as Tom's examples above illustrated. I'd appreciate your prayers. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1463 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, As a divorced person, I can understand everything you are saying. I will remember you in my prayers. Diana | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 60 Registered: 1-2005 |
Diana, Isn't it amazing how sometimes it takes a new perspective to realize what we are doing to ourselves and others? When I bought the newspaper the other day, and I saw what this young man had written to the parents of his victim, it just got me to boiling. (I'm sure that showed in my post!) Sorry to all if it was a little heavy. And it never dawned on me that hey, I'm posting this on Mothers Day, duh. (Of course, mothers are some of the few who are good at knowing when to pardon!) Anyways, I think this whole thing irritates me so much because I used to be like that. I would say "I'm sorry!" and then expect everything else to go away. What a juvenile concept! Tom | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 62 Registered: 1-2005 |
Colleen, That is a loaded topic; I have faith that you will say things that will have a lasting impact far beyond what you can fathom. Personally, I lived that whole "Marry in haste, repent in leisure" (or something like that). Since I'm remarried, I suppose that I'm "living in sin". Luckily, it's never bothered me. My first marraige was extremely destructive. My second marraige is exactly the opposite. I just can't understand why anyone would be opposed to ending the obviously damaging, and then further to guilt those who afterward find their soulmates. If marraige is the foundation of society, why would you want a creaky foundation? And then, why would attack those who "re-pour" that foundation? To me, this is one of those "Hello, McFly!" moments. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 868 Registered: 7-2003  |
Maybe I'm just overly generous, but could the person's letters have been immaturity in general? His very crimes seem to indicate a lack of socialization. He's been promised forgiveness and perhaps his own guilt requires him cling to that forgiveness. Maybe he's really trying to "witness" in his elementary way??? It is true that anger and bitterness and harbored unforgiveness does the holder of such objects no good. Certainly, the snippits of the letters display a lack of humility and compassion for the victim's family. It almost sound a little OJ-ish, if that makes sense. I guess I've said some of the same things (not to "my murder victim's family"), but still in ignorance, concern and maybe even some pride and arrogance. I'm certainly not defending the letters, and think "leaving it alone" might be the best course of action beyond a genuine apology. But I need a lot of grace these days, and try to apply generously when I don't know all the details. I know I've done things that I would like to take back, and redo differently with the perspective of age. Like my marriage.... and the thankful divorce that allowed me to get out of that misery. If my divorce was a sin, and by many strict standards, it probably was, it's not the unpardonable sin, and I don't think it really disqualifies me for future marriage...but is that "winking" at the sin and disregarding scripture regarding that topic? Bible also says better to marry than "burn with passion", though I recognize it may be a little out of context. I know exactly what those kids of divorce are feeling, as I had divorced parents growing up, and you do feel ... inferior and a lot of times like it's your fault. I was afraid to invite people over to my house because my mother had alcohol (and she had alcohol because she was divorced) and I was afraid of people judging me based upon that. Reality for me is no one ever said anything to me about it (my parents being divorced). It was all in my own head.... But I sure would have liked it if someone had told me I wasn't 2nd class because my parents weren't married anymore. Your talk, Colleen, can do a lot to change someone's feelings about themselves more than you may realize, even if their classmates continue to be judgemental. No one knows how damaging divorce is to the psyche of a child, though there are a number of studies that have tried to put it in some perspective. It is a stigma that you feel follows you around for the rest of your life. Kids of divorce have higher incidence of divorce and more relationship problems in general. I fit that statistic too. I think it is wonderful the school wants to talk about it. What a great opportunity, Colleen. And what great respect they must have for you to want to hear your perspective on it. I'm trying to get through a migraine at the moment, so I don't feel these thoughts have flowed well together. I hope I've made some sense, particularly regarding divorce. Even in the church, being a single parent seems less preferred than divorced and remarried. Somehow you are seen as whole being re-married, and still a reject being divorced. Of course, most of that perception is probably in my head too ... when they say "family retreat" does that include "my" type of family or just those with two adults? There is a lot of pain being divorced, not that I think it's more than being married was, but at least as long as I put up the facade, there was an air of acceptance that SEEMS lacking in my post-divorce singleness. But again, some of that may be my own sensitivity to the issue and all I've heard about the awfulness of divorce. The marriage was awful...but the divorce brought a different sort of awfulness. Bottom line, marry carefully. Don't let age, or family pressure, or biological clock influence how/when you marry. There are so many things I would do differently, if I could.... That's why I need grace, to forgive myself because God did ...and if he could, I can too. Those are my jumbled thoughts at the moment. Maybe they also should be left unsaid. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1918 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, thank you for writing what you did above. You've actually helped me solidify some of the thoughts that have been floating through my head about this subject. I also second what you said about making decisions carefully, with prayer, and without pressure. One of the realities I cling to is that God in His sovereignty knew what sorts of sins I would fall into during my life, and He also knew how those particular sins would be instrumental in my coming to admit the depth of my own need for Jesus. I grew up with such strong feelings of certain sins being much more heinous than others--divorce was one of those. I can still remember the scorn and disdain in my mother's voice and face when she would mention in hushed tones that so-and-so was "a divorceÈ"! That word--divorceÈ--carried the connotation of a woman with no moral strength who would shamelessly manipulate other women's unsuspecting husbands who might feel "sorry" for her. (I can't remember any specific conversations which carried this information, but I remember it was CLEARLY conveyed to me!) I knew that was one failure I would avoid! Uh--think again. And I'll never forget how God came to me in a way I cannot explain after my divorce as I paced my apartment, feeling as if I would die. My usefulness was over. My reputation was forever smeared. My influence as a role model was shattered. Whatever good will I had built up as a teacher was a thing of the past. I felt as if I were dying as I begged God to forgive me--yet certain that He could not. All at once I felt the presence of God. Every bit of despair and fear was gone, and I stopped pacing in astonishment. With no audible words, God clearly told me that He was not done with me yet. He forgave me, and He let me know that He would still use me to represent Him. That moment was the beginning, in many ways, of my long, slow discovery of the gospel. I had to know that I had no morality or merit of my own. I was intrinsically lost. God touched me in the middle of that lethal misery and promised me a new life. I also realize, now, that my mom had a lot of unfinished business from her own childhood that heightened her fears. Furthermore, God has clarified to me in painfully personal ways that being divorced is no better and no worse a sin than is any other sin. In fact, as Melissa suggested above, sometimes being divorced is salvational--sometimes it saves one's life and the lives of one's children. Divorce is one of the marks of sin our race carries, and the underlying brokenness is exactly what Jesus came to redeem. I'm praying for your migraine to dissipate, Melissa. Thank you for sharing above. Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 409 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thank you so much for the statements above, all of you. I'm facing a divorce and am also pushing 60. I had believed that I could stand anything, and that it was too late in life to make any drastic changes anyway, so I convinced myself to stay in a verbally abusive environment way longer than was healthy for any of us. Thank God my husband hit a second childhood and started talking about walking out. It sounded like such a good idea that I'm the one who walked. Now, please understand that he had some mental health issues because he is bi-polar, and I always let him off the hook when he raged at me or the kids because he had his "condition," but now a few months away from all that I can really see how good he was, and still is, at manipulation. I ask for your prayers as I go forward in a few weeks and take the steps necessary to end my over a quarter of a century marriage. I can now look back and see how much damage that relationship had built into it and I can hardly wait to get out of it. I also know I will never really be out of it because we have two children, and they will always tie us together. I also ask that you pray for my husband. His condition keeps him unsettled. The only real emotions he understands are anger and pride. He has frequently admitted that to me. Our split-up has left him completely alone, not even a pet to talk to, so he calls and talks to me (he does the talking, I do the so-called listening), and sends me his poetry, filled with pride and anger, and it's like I cannot get away. If I tell him to stop calling, he starts talking about hanging himself. He used that hangman's rope threat to keep me in the marriage for 10 years longer than was wise, and he's using it to keep me unsettled now. I just want to be finished with it all, and for him to get on with his life, knowing that God is sovreign and that God chooses when each of our lives will end. We are selling our house, the closing date will be 5/26. After that is done, and our debts cleared, I will seek an attorney to file for divorce. He's been on a manic high for nearly three years now, and I'm totally exhausted from dealing with all of that. Our financials are in ruin. We are lucky that we will come out of the sale of the house with cleared ledgers. What I'm driving at here is that I feel the Lord wants this "sin" of divorce for both of us. I agree with what Colleen said above, that "being divorced is salvational sometimes." I regret not starting it sooner. Belva | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2005 |
When my daughter found out that I was getting divorced she said "Well, now I'm just like all the rest of the kids"! I know she was using that as bravado, but it is so sad that it was true. I think divorce is so destructive and know why God didn't design us to be divorced. As I watch my children having to deal with all that goes into having two sets of parents, multiple grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. I see how it reaches down and impacts the folowing generations. My daughter had a poor role model as to what a husband should be. She is allowing her husband to take advantage of her in similar ways I did. She is having to learn the hard way what a good marriage is all about. My granddaughter has two grandpas, three grandmas and two great-grandmas. We all love her and live close to each other. But it does make for scheduling problems, especially at holidays and birthdays! And I really have to ask for God's help when we all have to get together for things like graduations, weddings, births, etc.! And it really hurts to hear my granddaughter calling my ex-husband's wife "grandma". I don't think she should come in and take that role when she was the one sleeping with my husband! So it's hard all the way around. My son just can't seem to commit to a relationship, says he doesn't want children, and is skeptical about marriage. I can see why, due to the influence of his father and our divorce. He sees his father prospering in his hedonistic lifestyle and sees no reason to do it any different. I wish so much for him to live his life without all that baggage! I keep both my children in my prayers daily. I know that in our sinful world, sometimes divorce is the best thing. I know God used it it my case get me out of an abusive relationship and to bring me closer to Him. Sometimes divorce is just the easy way out of a marriage that could be good if the partners would work at it be fore throwing in the towel. But there are times when ones very life depends on that marriage ending. I can never judge another's motivation. When I was married, I was invited to lots of social occasions, even when my husband was gone alot and I was alone. But as soon as I was divorced those invitations never came. My husband left me for a younger woman, but he was embraced by our church (SDA) while I was shunned. Of course he had a glamorous job and was head elder, while I was a single mom working and going to school and trying to make ends meet. I finally quit going to church because it was just too painful. Even my parents treated me as less than whole without a husband! They never really accepted the reason for my divorce. They said if I had been a better wife he wouldn't have left me! And now that I am remarried, everything is OK again! Somehow being married reflected good on me in the eyes of others. That I wasn't "good enough" as as "single" really hurts. It was when I was at my lowest point that God reached out and grabbed me! I am now married to a wonderful man, after ten years single and determined to NEVER get married again! But my Husband has helped me to understand Christianity in a whole new way. And together we left the SDA Church and found a new Church home. My children love him - not as their father, but as a good friend. He is there for them when they need a man's help or perspective in a way their father refuses to be. But he upholds their dad to them and never tries to take his place. He helps take care of my mom (and my dad before he passed away), which is quite a committment and a BIG help to me. God knew just what I needed! I would never go back to my old life! When I was going through my divorce, I went to a "Divorce Recovery" group at a local non-SDA Church. It was clear that they were against divorce except for adultry. And remarriage was wrong, again except in cases where the other had commited adultry. At that time I didn't know my husband had been having affairs, but it still seemed so judgemental. I finally quit going because it hurt more than it helped. Of couse, later I realized my divorce was "biblical", but that didn't really make it any easier in my opinion! And I don't know if my remarriage is "biblical" because my new husband was also divorced and his ex-wife has not remarried, and I don't know if she has commited adultry! It can get so confusing! I do have some questions still. The Bible does state that adultry is the only reason that divorce and remarraige is allowed. Is it really sinning to get remarried if the other partner has not committed adultry? I believe it is OK (necessary)to leave an abusive marriage. But what about remarrige? And should one only separate but not divorce in cases of abuse? Does one need to wait for the other to be the first to "sin" by remarrying before it is OK to remarry? I just can't seem to sort it all out. And sin is sin and since we are all sinners does it reallly matter? I don't mean to make light of it, but I just don't know what to think about it all. I hope this doesn't sound judgemental. I would be the last to judge - only God can do that. But I've heard so many Christians be judgemental of divorce that I am confused. I know that I am saved regardless of my sins or marital state, but this is an issue that I would like to understand better. I think many of us divorced Christians have an underlying uncertainty about it. Sometime we do feel the scorn of other Christians, and that hurts. Any insights into this would help! Thanks, tisha | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 568 Registered: 1-2003 |
I divorced to save the life of me and my unborn child...IOW: I was physically being abused as well as mentally. I know Jesus didn't want me in that situation (I didn't listen to His advise before I married the bum, he told me not to) and for a while I thought I had to stay with him. I prayed and prayed to be delivered from that hell, and He seriously delivered me out of that marriage. Remember folks, we are under the New Covenant now, quit applying Old Covenant to New Covenant lives. If the Spirit tells you to get out, get out! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 869 Registered: 7-2003 |
Tisha, I don't know the answer to many of your questions, particularly regarding remarriage. I do know that I hope God has someone out there for me some day, somewhere who will love my kids and me as he designed. Since you are re-married now, I think God honors that marriage and would not have you change it. Having said that, if you are concerned about it, I know God will provide any reassurance of forgiveness and acceptance where both seem lacking. By God's grace we are saved, not of our own works, lest any of us should boast. That does not mean I don't grieve my continual sin, because I do. But if God can cast it from the east to the west, I should to. | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 311 Registered: 2-2002  |
This thread is reminding me of my divorce support group! Man, can I relate to all you guys are saying. In my situation, I thank God for what he brought out of my divorce. I remarried a Godly man who has helped me so much in transitioning out of Adventism. Talking about all the grandparents and getting along....this is how we are. My daughter is very close to her step-mom, who is now also divorced from my ex. She has a little half-brother who she is crazy about. Right now she basically has four grandmas.....both "step" grandmothers have taken her in as their own. When my daughter graduated high school last spring the step-mom and her mom as well as my parents and my daughter's half-brother stayed with my husband and I (they're all out of town.) I actually felt a little sorry for my ex at one point. He had two ex-wives and their children, two ex-mothers in law, and an ex-father in law around him all weekend. OK, I'm rambling, but it's just so comforting at times to see all the brothers and sisters I have who've experienced many of the same things I have. And God has taught me soooo much, and blessed me so much through all this. God bless you all, Carol | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 870 Registered: 7-2003 |
My dad married his current wife when I was an adult, so it's different than the wife he had when I was a kid. I think that could be why the dynamics may be different than a "parenting" step-parent, at least in my situation. The one Christmas I had my dad/step-mom and my mom all over was kindof surreal. My dad and mom talked about all these people from "the old days" and I just kindof watched in wonder. My daughter, who is retarded, was very funny that day. I'm not sure she recognized there was a difference in "grammy" and "Grandma Camille" prior to that day...they look very similar, same hair cut, color, same size and similar voice tones. At that dinner, I watched Rachel as she looked back and forth between the two of them, and I could almost hear her wheels turning as she realized there were "two" of them. I grew up with a step-grandmother, and never thought anything about it. My step-mom treats me as her own. When my grandfather died a few weeks ago, and I needed new tires to make the trip safely, she called to tell me she was going to pay for them after my dad mentioned to her I had taken my car in to get them replaced. When I moved, she bought me a new stove as a house warming gift. She was my sole confidant when I started having issues with my ex, and when my mom called them to criticize me for the divorce, she stood up for me and told her they supported me and thought I was doing the right thing. She was who we called when I went into labor prematurely (they didn't even know I was pregnant) to come to the hospital and she was so loving and accepting. She was there with my older son all through my labor, then waited with him in the waiting room during delivery. My step-mom is the mother I always wanted...and my mother acknowledges she's not much of a mother-type. I don't know if my mother has ever been bothered by my current step-mom, she's never said. But I call her by her first name, and not "mom." Hooray for step-moms who forget you're a "step" child! Just to add to Carol's ramblings.... | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 312 Registered: 2-2002 |
Yes! My daughter's stepmom treats her as if she's her own....and for that I'm so thankful. When my current husband and I first met, I was a little insecure and jealous that my daughter was so close to her dad's (at that time) girlfriend/fiance. Wayne said just this to me, and I've never forgotten it and I've made it a part of me...."Would you rather she have a stepmom who dislikes her and mistreats her, or one who loves her?" It's funny you mention Rachel's figuring out there were two of "two" of them! Just a few weeks ago during my spring break I went to New York to see my "ex" in-laws, to whom I'm still very close. My ex-husband's most recent ex (It sure sounds crazy when you have to explain it) and I look amazingly alike.....nobody can believe it. A nephew who is just nine was so confused, and finally asked me, "Who is taking care of Joey?" (My daughter's half-brother, the current ex's son.) It's so confusing for kids, but we've all decided it's at least good for our kids, to see that we can all get along and do what's best for the kids. I say that though, realizing many of you don't have it as easy as I do....many of you are dealing with ex's that won't play fair, won't do what's right, are full of anger....etc. I thank God I'm at the place I am now...it wasn't always this way, believe me. It took me a good 2-3 years after the divorce before I reached where I am now in dealing with the ex and his new family, and it's wasn't my doing....it definitely was the work of God. OK, I'll shut up now. Love and prayers to all of you, Carol | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 314 Registered: 3-2004  |
Speaking of marriages, divorces and such, I would like to broaden the subject a bit to include those of us who have left spouses behind in Adventism. I can't believe that I am the only one facing intense destablization and spiritual warfare brought on by my change in spiritual outlook. Do any of the rest of you know what I'm talking about? I've faced being told I can't possibly be hearing from God; that my viewpoint is dumb, stupid etc. All sorts of responses that suggest a huge fear basis. I believe my husband knows deep down that Adventism is wrong--or at the very least not all that it's represented to be. Since he won't discuss anything, it's difficult to give any sort of support to him other than prayer. When I needed support and was looking for answers myself (since I hadn't ever intended to leave Adventism) he did everything he could to undermine my studying. Those of you who have studied and dialogued with spouses on your journeys out have been truly blessed. Their might be tiny cracks appearing, however. My husband bought me a necklace for mother's day--something he never would have considered a few years ago. Praise God... | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2005 |
I know that through my divorce and the fallout from that, God is teaching me patience, humility, forgiveness, and a bunch of other things I'm sure! My ex kept me in court for 10 years with all kinds of charges and appeals all in trying to bankrupt me, which he almost did! He never asked for custody of any kind, never saw his children, never paid child support (he kept it in "escrow" while we were in litigation), then just never paid it to me when my children reached 18 years old. He even bribed the kids with cars and then made them testify against me in court with the threat of taking away their new cars. Cars are pretty important to teenagers! The only thing I "knew" I had done right was raising my kids, and he even took that away from me for awhile. I thought I would die of a broken heart. My tears flow just writing about this. Both my children have come to me and apologized and realized how they were manipulated. It took some time for us to build trust in each other again, but now we are closer than ever. As adults they see what their dad is. They accept him and love him, but understand where he is coming from. My ex has never apologized and acts like nothing ever happened. In fact when he filed for divorce he said he wouldn't discuss it with me because "it didn't concern me"!! His mistress/wife calls me "girlfriend" and I feel like throwing up! So it takes all my God-given grace to tolerate all our "family" gatherings. But I do this so my children have a relatively good environment when we are all together. It's not their fault I chose him for their father! And little by little I can forgive him, because God has given me the grace and peace to do so. Mostly now I only feel pity for him, because he doesn't know the true joy and peace of trusting in Jesus rather than his money and social position, which could change at any moment! Only Jesus never changes. I still wish that someday he would admit his wrong-doing to me and apologize - I am human! But now I am able to see how much God has done for me despite all of this. I know know Him so much better, have learned to trust in Him alone, and am slowly learning to forgive. That makes His forgiveness of my sins even more precious because I know how hard that can be. But - I still wonder why those lessons have to be SO HARD!! -tisha | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1464 Registered: 3-2004 |
Belva, Have you thought of getting an answering machine and monitoring your calls or a voice mail? I do that with my answering machine and if it is a call I do not want, I do not answer. My sister does the same. I could write about divorce, but all you ladies have said it. At this time my ex and I are friendly when we see each other. My son has told me that he turned out the he turned out because of me and the way I raised him. So whatever his Dad might say or do, I know where I stand in my son's eyes. Yes the lessons are hard and I hated them at the time. But time does heal and God is and was in charge in spite of our mistakes. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 411 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, Diana, I do screen calls because of my soon-to-be former husband, but you must realize that he is a control freak. If he can't get me on my house line, he calls my cell, then calls the kids on their cells, and if everybody persists in ignoring him, he comes over here. I'd rather keep him at phone's length away. I spoke to his best friend a little earlier this afternoon, and his friend told me that all of those suicide threats are just so much wind, because J has told his friend that he would never take his own life because it is a mortal sin, and one that you can never take back or ask forgiveness for. I then asked him (his friend) why J persists in making those comments to me all of the time about hanging trees, ropes, and a rope ends it...he told me he didn't know other than J knows it will upset me. Belva | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 313 Registered: 2-2002 |
Oh Tisha! I can relate to the bribes, and know exactly what you mean with teens. My husband's wife did a lot of that to him with his three kids. When my step-son was 15, she promised him a new jeep for his 16th birthday if he'd come live with her (the increase in her child support would have taken care of the payment easily.) It was really hard on him, but bless his heart, he wouldn't leave his dad. I feel sad when I hear all that the rest of you are going through. Makes me feel like I was bragging about my situation.....trust me, I've been through incredible pain, fear, anger, all that, but now looking back I see how God used it and I thank Him for it....He's given me so much more that I ever dreamed of. PraiseGod, I cannot relate to what you're going through, but one thing I can say....and I've said this many times before, and others say it too, unless someone is willing to hear the truth, you can argue until you're blue in the face. The best thing my non-sda, Christian husband did with me was never try to convince me of anything. I think if he had, I probably wouldn't have come around as soon as I did. He just kept his mouth shut, and lived a Godly example....and when I got curious about EGWhite and issues within the church, because of my sister and brother-in-law leaving, and started reading and questioning, he still didn't say much. I came to conclusions totally on my own. Again, if he had tried to convince me or argue with me, I know me, and it would have backfired. You sisters are in my prayers! Carol | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1465 Registered: 3-2004 |
Belva, From what I have heard others say, when a person threatens to commit suicide for whatever reason, is "I am not responsible for what you CHOOSE to do." Do not let that intimidate you. Can you get a restraining order against him not to call you or bother you in any way?? Just thinking out loud. I have all you ladies, Tisha, Sabra, Belva and Susan on my prayer list. God is still in charge and He will redeem any mistakes made. He did it for me and I know He will do it for you. God, be with Tisha, Sabra, Belva, and Susan in this, their trying times. Send the Holy Spirit to comfort them and hold them in Your awesome arms as they go through this. They are Your children and I know you love them and will never let them go. Thank you God for Jesus who made this possible. He is all we need and He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1921 Registered: 12-2003 |
PraiseGod, I know there are some on this forum who can relate to your situation. The continual character assaults and apparently stubborn refusal to consider other points of view are wearing and very painful. Even this God will redeem with His love and grace. I don't mean to sound glib--I see your situation as difficult and complex. But praise God--He has overcome the world, and He will comfort your heart and give you His discernment and wisdom. Tisha, Sabra, Belva, Praise God--you are in my prayers. Colleen | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 64 Registered: 1-2005 |
Melissa, Going back to your earlier post, when you had an ìOW!î migraine, I see your point, and I agree with you. Itís not good to harbor unforgiveness, and what Isaac did probably had a lot to do with immaturity. He is still only 19, and Iím sure he had some whacked out experiences growing up, or as a teenager. But the nature of his crime still bothers me (I wonít go into that again; I already described it too graphically), and than to turn around and offer himself as a Christian and in such a heavy handed manner bothers me, even if he did mean well. But the part that really throws up a red flag, at least for me, is his unwillingness to make restitution. Sure, he doesnít have much to offer, but what he can offer up, shouldnít he, despite whatever motivates Charles and Jennifer? Again, I think a lot of my angst is motivated by my own guilt. I did some pretty low things in my time, and often acted in a very juvenile manner. I expected others to just forgive AND forget. Itís taken me a long time to realize that hey, if youíre going to do the crime, youíve got to be willing to do the time. Even when others truly forgive me for some error Iíve committed, I still need to make amends. And doing time isnít as bad as it always sounds. In fact, Iíve found that itís a lot easier to live with myself and with those I love when Iím willing to ëfess up AND pay up, so to speak. We all make mistakes, but itís what we do after our mistakes that says a lot about us, AND our religion. I guess all we can do is hope that Isaac is guided in his journey. Tom | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 65 Registered: 1-2005 |
Boy, this thread sure is loaded! But itís a boon to see that others are going through what Iím going through! There was a columnist, Walter Williams, I think, who said something along the lines of ìHereís Williamsí recipe for success. First, take your education as far as youíre going to. Then work in your chosen career field for at least a few years before you get married. Then, after you get married, wait a couple of years before you have children.î Sure, this wonít guarantee success, but it sure beats whatever else is out there, hands down. It sounds soooo obvious, but I sure didnít follow that recipe! All I can hope is that my daughter does. (Sheís probably sick of hearing me say it over and over and over.) I joined the Army because I didnít know what else to do. Then I married on a lark to a very psychotic witch (and I mean that in the most positive, forgiving, loving way possible!). I count myself lucky to have come out of that first marriage physically and mentally whole, and I mean that wholeheartedly. I still gnash my teeth when I think of the damage I did to my friends and family because of my first marriage. Thank God that I found my current wife! I am very happy now, and Iím free to find my way in a supporting and nurturing relationship. And I can be the husband and father that I can be proud of, and not get spurned at every turn. Now when it comes to those sperm donorsÖ well, Iím not going to go there, at least not now. You saw how Isaacís immaturity got me riled up; imagine how a grown manís immaturity makes me feel. Iíll just comment that I absolutely canít understand how society and the church can allow these worthless bums to dodge their God-given responsibilities. Nor can I understand how a man could refuse to take pride in performing that most manly of duties: supporting and raising a child. From the church to the grave, I will be by my wifeís side. From the cradle to the commencement, I will be by my daughterís side. How could I do otherwise? There are no easy answers. Life is a lot harder than I was ever raised to understand. But I do believe deeply that somehow I and my wife have the power to break the cycle, to leave a legacy of a daughter who is lot wiser and more fulfilled than we ever were. Plus, as an added bonus, if she ìmesses upî, she canít blame us ;-) Tom | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 871 Registered: 7-2003 |
Tom, I see your point too. I guess it seems somehow insulting to think money could repay my son's loss. Because I am a Christian, I would think turning his life around would be the greatest gift he could give ... so that he wouldn't hurt anyone again. Society has already imposed a penalty on him, and he's serving his sentence. Perhaps as he grows in time (and spiritually if his conversion is real), he will be able to say and do things that set better with "socialized folks". The older I get the more I recognize the benefit of "fessing up" and moving on...and I've got a masters degree...something society thinks means I'm educated. 19 is so young. In a day where video games are all about killing and tv is our major baby sitter...I wonder why we don't see it more. Certainly this young man needs to make amends as possible, but his point about the lawyer fees and what he has in terms of assets is legit too. If everyone starts following up criminal suits with civil suits, it will be a nightmare. How many ways can we make people pay? The crime is awful. Multiple people have lost their lives, and not just those deceased. I can't imagine the conflict of emotions as you learn someone you may have cared for did such an awful thing. Ultimately, I think there are two sides to every story, and the media tends to do a good job at hyping things towards one bent without always representing the other side very well. Sometimes, the media seems more like the gossip mill, than a reliable source of information. I would hate for someone to get a one sided letter of mine, without knowing what has come before it. Absolutely, what this guy did was awful. He's been found guilty, and seems to be acknowledging his guilt. Maybe the rest will come in time, too. 19 seems younger and younger every day. On the divorce topic, I was thinking this morning (with a less pained brain, thank you very much!) about some of the conversation yesterday. One of the things I was struck by regarding the school kids is that I myself judged my parents when I was a teen. I condemned their actions. But it's like that family code that the only person that can beat up on my brother is me. If you do it, I'm going to defend him. It is such an awful place to perceive (real or otherwise) the condemnation for actions you did not take, and may not support depending up on the circumstances. Add to that you're going through puberty, testing your own relationships ... it's just a hard place to be in. I remember my mother dating more than I did ... and it was awkward to feel "left out" in some sense. I still think Colleen has a huge opportunity to provide some comfort and relief for these kids that are probably mixed up and experiencing a huge array of emotions from their own anger and disapproval to defensiveness for the parents being attacked from an external source. Tisha, I am so sorry for what you've experienced. I can't imagine the pain of watching your kids be used against you. Even in forgiveness, best we can muster, that doesn't necessarily remove the pain. I can only offer support and the assurance that God knows ... and he has a plan out of what someone else meant for evil. Praise God, I can't relate because I wasn't married to the SDA in my life. But when I was still involved with him more personally, I heard all of those things you mentioned. He routinely told me I didn't know the voice of God if he was saying anything against the SDA religion. That was his test for anything I read or found, did it support adventism. He told me I wasn't studying the Bible for what it "really" said, and that I was taking things out of context. He said I wasn't very thorough in my Bible study, and that I was only looking at texts that supported what I already wanted to believe..on and on and on. It takes quite a bit of energy to repel all those negative thoughts, knowing they're not true just because he said they were. I know there are others on here who continue to experience what you talk about and hope they can offer some words of encouragement. My empathy is minimal, at best. Belva, I also wish I had started my divorce stuff earlier. Stay strong and allow us to encourage you any time you need it! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1924 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praise God that He grants us new beginnings and forgiveness for our immense foolishness and outright sin. There is such freedom in truth--and often that freedom translates into the freedom to obey Jesus in ways we never could when we were avoiding the truth. But that's not surprising, since Jesus IS the Truth--and His business is revealing truth to us in every area of our experience. He is so faithful. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1803 Registered: 11-2002 |
I personally know numerous immates and I know a lot of people who are not now inmates but have been. And, honestly, he's right. He says he has nothing so if they want to sue it's on them. I don't understand how come they are suing. They most likly will not get much inner peace from having a civil monatary judgement out on the guy who can pay nothing. If you want to read a wonderful story of a man who truly has turned his life around while behind the prison bars go to the website of Tex Watson. If you need your memory refreshed, he is the man who actually did the Manson murders. He is doing a prison ministry now. The state of California moves him around within its prison system because he has such a wonderful ministry, and of course, being an immate too he can certinaly identify with the needs and desires of his fellow immates. I currently have a son who is incarcerated at a California prison. So therefore I know there are many wonderful folks doing time. It's too bad these men and women will forever be known for the one most worst thing they ever did. Jesus said, "I was hungry and you gave me food. I was naked and you gave me clothes. I was in prison and you visited me". This opens up a door into my deepest part of total hostility I have in me about our entire "justice: system, from the local cops to the stupid parole stsyem to the righ getting off from horrendous crimes (i.e.: Ted Kennedy at Chappaquatick) to the poor (lots of neighbors and friends) doing time for just about nothing. The Good News is that Jesus HAS redemed even the worst of us. All WE have o do is ask. |
