| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1824 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree. I have to quote a wonderful friend who occasionally posts here--she said to me recently that she believes there are some born again people in the Adventist church (the same would apply for Catholic, etc.), but they are the ones who are always uncomfortable because they do not hear their Father's voice there. Colleen | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 76 Registered: 2-2005 |
The Sunday Law is right around the corner again. The fear tactics are heating up a bit. I got this link in an email today to Dr. Sammy's latest newsletter: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/et_129.htm But in the meantime, has no one noticed that France and Russia are becoming more and more Muslim? I guess Muslims, including their radical wing who would like nothing more than to exterminate Christians (especially in the West), don't fit into SDA eschatology. "Get ready, get ready, get ready!" Heretic | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 396 Registered: 7-2004 |
Heretic, I like you better every time you post. I know that everyone keeps on saying that the Muslim's god, Allah, is the same God you and I, and the Jews worship. Not so. Their god is the sun god, at one time called Baal. I'm convinced that if you want to talk about a Great Controversy, you can talk about the ongoing difference between the true God, Jehovah, and the false god, Baal. If I'm wrong, please correct me. All I know is that the god Baal was introduced into Isreal by the Arabic countries that surrounded Isreal. The conflict to the end is between true worship, and false worship. | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 310 Registered: 2-2002  |
I find it so interesting, yet at the same time frustrating, that the blame for SDAs leaving the fold is entirely focused by Bacchiochi (sp?) on "Dale Ratzlaff's Book." Never is there a mention that those leaving have studied the Bible, it's always that they've been mislead by Dale's book. The solution is for them to contact Bacchiochi or the conference so they can have it all explained to them. Ugh! It just makes me angry! | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 557 Registered: 1-2003 |
I find it interesting (totally symbolic) that Abraham had two sons, one born out of a promise and one born out of sin. There are several analogies one can draw from this, such as the how we are saved, by faith or works, etc. See Galatians. But think on this a minute...what if God was setting up the end conflict waaaayyy back then...Ishmael persecuted Isaac...their descendants still hate each other. We, though not Jews, are Abrahams descendents, who will most probably persecute the Christians? Those who hated us from the beginning...the descendents of Ishmael, also known as Muslims. I find it hard to believe that any body who professes Christ, no matter how misguided and error filled they are, would be the Anti-Christ. The anti-Christ was already at work in the world when the Apostles wrote, the Catholic church was not founded until later. Read 1 John 2:22 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichristóhe denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. According to this criteria, anyone who denies Christ is also God is the anti-Christ, or denies that Jesus is in fact the Christ is the anti-Christ. Makes you think, doesn't it? That would include many different groups of people, such as Jews, Mormons, Muslims, Bhuddists...the list goes on... | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 241 Registered: 3-2005 |
Heretic, Thanks for that link. Pheeki, I agree with you on 1John 2. This is ABSOLUTE scriptural proof that the papacy cannot be the Anti-Christ. Because, never in the history of the papacy have they ever denied the Trinity, or the Deity of Christ. This is also the text used by Walter Martin, Hank Hanegraf, and other cult watchers, as to why you really cannot classify RCC, or SDA as a non-Christian cult because of their basic belief in the foundational doctrines. I still believe both SDA and RCC are false gospels, since they both practice Galatianism, and come under Paul's warning of Gal. 1:8,9. But to say they are anti-Christ, or demonic per se, is difficult to do in light of 1 John 2. This is why I have a problem attributing demon posession to certain Catholic or SDA leaders. I just believe they are dead wrong about their theology, and I guess Satan is the father of all lies, so it ultimately gets back to that question. But this text in 1 John is very specific. That is why I also agree with those posting earlier who say it is more likely to be Islam who is the Antichrist. I happen to believe that Revelation was written for 1st century Christians, as well as us, and that Rev. is symbolic for Tribulation in all eras, and there have been antichrists all throughout history. Therefore, I believe (along with many others in Reformed theology), that the very next event in the prophetic schema of things is the 2nd coming of Christ--not the pre-trib rapture, or some other theory--But the literal return of our Lord when every eye will see him. We don't need to worry about becoming holy enough by being vegetarian etc. to be able to get thru the Time of Trouble (as another church we are all familiar with teaches). Christ has already purchased our pardon, and defeated Satan, and we can rejoice and await His glorious appearing. Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 397 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, Stan. The Great Tribulation just possibly could have taken place under Nero's rule. If you compare what actually happened during that awful time to what is stated in The Revelation, they look very similar. Then again, the final plagues are yet to fall, but look around at all the nasty germs we have to deal with, and they are developing resistance to any of the medications we can throw at them. Even so, come Lord Jesus! Belva | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 77 Registered: 2-2005 |
Wow! Fascinating posts, guys! Thanks for your responses. Belva, do you have some sources for that info about Baal having a significant place in Islamic history? Iíd like to read up on that, because if thatís the case, then I think SDAís could REALLY be missing the boat here. I hadnít thought about the Galatians allegory of the freewoman and the slavewoman in those terms, Pheeki, but you raise a great point and you may be right on. It just seems to me that if you look back through the history of Christianity and Islam, theyíve been at war from the get go. You have a large group of people (Muslims) who buy into the idea that all other religions, particularly Christianity and Judaism, are worthy of nothing less than death for being infidels and not professing Allah as the true God (that and their bitter hate for all things Jewish and anyone who supports them). As Pheeki pointed out, anything against Christ is anti-Christ, which includes a large group there, too. Islam certainly falls into this category. And not only that, there is a group of these people who make no secret that their sole purpose in life is to kill as many non-Muslims, most notably Christians (Westerners in particular)as possible. They are willing to die if it means their cause is further advanced toward this goal. No one can deny this. Now shouldnít this send up some kind of a red flag? But when you are positive of the identity of the anti-Christ, I suppose you have to direct efforts into making that scenario fit into the eschatology of the ìinspired prophetî who endorsed his identity in the first place. Regarding 1 John 2, youíre right, it seems to eliminate the papacy as the identity of the anti-Christ. There is a movement out there among ultra-conservative SDAís to return to a more monotheistic doctrinal stance. Check out www.smyrna.org to see what Iím talking about. These folks believe the Trinity to be the ìcentral teachingî of the Catholic church and that the SDA has yielded this very important doctrine which has eternal implications. But if this is true, than doesnít that alone exclude the Pope from being anti-Christ, even without the text in 1 John? Donít get me wrong, I think the Catholic church is wrong in many, many ways, but they do preach Jesus as the Son of God. This has always perplexed me, even in the days when I swallowed the majority of the morsels on the SDA table, which wasn't long ago. This leads to another point. If the Pope is indeed NOT the Anti-Christ, and I doubt that he is, there are going to be some pretty shocked folks when Christ comes and there hasnít been any Sunday Law or attempted extermination of Sabbath-keepers. Wouldnít it be easy to get lulled into a false sense of security due to the absence of the ìsure signsî of Jesusí return, namely this persecution? ìKnowingî that these had to come to pass prior to the Lordís return used to give me the impression that I had time to do whatever I jolly well wanted because surely there was more time to take God seriously later on when all these things started to occur. I donít know if that makes sense. But for Adventists in general, I think that without having assurance of salvation beforehand, would REALLY make the second coming a terrifying experience. Praise God for KNOWING that we are saved! Heretic | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 622 Registered: 10-2004  |
Stan, I guess I see things a little differently. I think that saying Jesus has a sinful nature is denying that He is Christ/God. Also, EGW totally denied that Jesus is God--she says that He was an angel that became equal with God. EGW even teaches the exact same thing (Gnosticism) that John was countering when he wrote that whoever denies that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is an antichrist (1 John 4:1-3). Here is what the Gnostics taught:
They taught that Jesus only had a "divine spirit" inhabiting his body, and so God didn't really come and die for us, just a human died--that's what EGW teaches. And (I'm not sure if the Gnostics taught this but the heresy of Apollinarianism did) that Jesus only had a divine spirit and had no human spirit. This is exactly what EGW and SDAs teach, this same Gnostic-type and Apollinarian-type heresy. In fact, they don't even believe that we have human spirits--only breath. EGW says that Jesus had a "guise" of humanity that He "wore" like a garment--but He didn't really become human. She says, "The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty" (Lift Him Up, 235:3). Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1889 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pheeki, great post. Stan, you make a interesting point about SDA and RCC being false gospels but not anti-Christian cults. I guess, though, that I do see them as having a satanic claim on them. 1 John 2:22 clearly identifies the antichrist as being one who denies Jesus is the Christ. Yet that denial can come in subtle shapes. Knowing and believing who Jesus is does not constitute saving faith. James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatÇ and shudder." Satan clearly knows and believes that Jesus is the Christ. As our pastor's wife/women's ministry leader said recently (in the context of a small systematic theology class), "It's not enough to correctly identify who Jesus is. You must also know His role in salvation." Adventism: they correctly identify Jesus, but Adventist theology ultimately places the guilt for our sins and the punishment for them on Satan as the "scapegoat". To an Adventist, Jesus' blood is not THE saving reality. It's only the means to open the way to salvation. According to Adventism, Jesus' blood gives Jesus the right to temporarily pardon us pending the IJ at which time, if we pass the test, our sins will be placed on Satan. To a "modern" Adventist, Jesus' blood might not even have been necessary at all. It was merely an example of God's love for us. Adventism completely skews Jesus' role in the atonement. While I don't know as much about Catholicism, it teaches that Jesus' mediation is clearly not enough to open the way for sinners to directly approach the Father. Sinners must repent through a human mediator in order to be pardoned. Further, Mary petitions Jesus for humans, begging His mercy on sinners. She may not be overtly called a co-redemptrix in their creed, but that is her perceived role. That being said, I see Islam as being the greatest threat to Christianity. But, if the final issue will be loyalty to Jesus or not, I can easily see that those who are deceived by false doctrines and have a warped belief of Jesus' role in salvation could cast their loyalty with political power rather than sacrifice their lives for Jesus. As far as demon possession goes--I don't believe most Adventist leaders are demon possessed, either. The reason I qualified my comments on a previous post is that I do believe some people may actually have chosen to compromise their lives to an extent that they've "made deals with the devil" for the sake of personal gain. I've seen just enough that I don't believe I can rule out that possibility in some people. This sort of compromise is not directly caused by Adventism, probably--but Adventism provides a convenient framework of spurious doctrines and a warped social structure bred in the stew of false relgion so people who make these compromises can actually get away with them. Since the church teaches Jesus (albeit not clearly or completely Biblically), I believe that people can pursue Him and find Him. They won't be able to mature in Him if they accept Adventism's version as their final authority, but Jesus can call those people who have heard of Him and desire to know Him. I do call Adventism a cult, and I do believe it has a satanic claim on it. It was founded on untruths, and that foundation includes the author of those untruths. Adventists have a veil over their hearts and cannot understand the miracle of the new covenant. That veil as our pastor said in a sermon, is a spiritual power. I do believe Adventists do live with demonic oppression or harrassment even if it goes no deeper than their inability to understand the Bible. But this oppression is removed when they turn to Christ and let go of the beliefs that kept them from Him as He reveals them. Praise God that He is sovereign and calls those who are His wherever they are! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 623 Registered: 10-2004 |
Also, adding to my above post, I wouldn't be so quick to say that SDAs believe in the Trinity, just because of what their fundamental beliefs say. As Heretic pointed out, some SDAs believe in the historical SDA stance of anti-trinitarianism (the SDA cult didn't even acknowledge that Jesus is eternal until 1980!), and then you have official SDA publications such as the Adventist Review teaching tritheism. There is such a wide variety of belief in SDAism about the Godhead, even (or especially) among their scholars--there really is no consensus of belief in the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on May 04, 2005) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 624 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, I totally agree with you about the denial of Jesus coming in more subtle ways sometimes. I was going to mention that their false gospel really does deny Jesus and His atoning sacrifice for our salvation. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on May 04, 2005) | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 398 Registered: 7-2004 |
Heretic, I made my statement based on some reading I did some while ago, and I cannot find the book just now. Most people think that Muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the same God. Muslims and Jews share a common ancestry, and some of the Jewish prophets, including Christ (as far as Muslims are concerned) are acknowledged. My recollection of the book I read said that at the time Mohammed came, the Arabic peoples he ruled served a great pantheon of Gods, the greatest of which was their sun god. Thamus was one of his names, also had been called Baal in the past. Baal's wife was the mood godess. If you will notice most of the Muslim temples have a dome, representative of the sun in shape, and those domes are frequently covered with gold leaf or gold paint to make them reflective, like the sun. Inside these temples there are representations of the moon and stars. The crescent moon is prominent as a symbol of Islam. Mohammed's gift to Islam was to distill all of their many gods down into one god and then name that one god Allah. I, for one, used to think that all three of the world's great religions worshipped the same God, but I had a change of heart after reading that book. I'll have to do some research on the internet because all of my books are in storage. If I have understood it wrong I will be the first to say so, but it does make sense because from the very beginning the problems within Isreal came from the influence of the Arabic countries surrounding them, with their many gods, chief of which was Baal. All I know is that it would be ridiculous to assume that one worshipper of Christ would become the anti-christ to other worshippers of Christ. The edges would just be too blurry. In Revelation I see a clear distinction between true worship and false worship. Belva | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 399 Registered: 7-2004 |
I just went over to CARM, because they have things well studied out, and they have a whole section on Islam. It appears that they do worship the one god, creator of the universe. Instead of the Holy Spirit, they have Gabriel fulfilling that role. I didn't stay long enough to really get into it, but there are angelic beings that are created from light that slavishly do God's will (angels), and angelic beings created from fire (Jinn). Jinn are both good and bad. The Devil is a bad Jinn. I guess this is where all of the Arabian Knights tales come from with genies in bottles and such. It still looks like a soup comprised of polytheism and monotheism. I get a headache trying to make sense of all the convoluted assumptions. The believers in Islam say that Jesus was never crucified, that he lived and died a normal man. History proves that Jesus was crucified, so they are denying documented history. Here is the outline: ---------- God 1. There is only one God (5:73; 112:1-4). 2. God is called Allah by Muslims (5:73) 3. Allah sees all things (40:20), is present everywhere (2:115; 7:7). 4. Allah is the sole creator and sustainer of the universe (3:191). 5. Allah is not a Trinity, but is one (5:73). 6. Allah is all-knowing (2:268; 10:61) and all powerful (6:61-62). 7. Allah created the heaven and earth (2:29; 6:1, 73; 25:61-62; 36:81; 46:33). Salvation and Judgment 1. Allah will judge all people on the day of judgment (3:30; 35:33-37; 99:6-8). 2. If your good deeds exceed your bad deeds, and you believe in Allah, and sincerely repent of sins, you may go to heaven (3:135; 7:8-9; 21:47; 49:14; 66:8-9). 3. There is an eternal hell for those who are not Muslims, not practicing and of the truth faith (3:77). 4. Hell is a place of unlimited capacity (50:30) eternal torment (2:39; 14:17; 25:65; 39:26), fire (9:63; 11:16; 25:11-12; 104:6-7), with boiling water (38:55-58; 55:43-44), where skin is burned and renewed (4:56), for unbelievers (3:13; 19:49) and Jinn (11:119), with faces covered with fire (14:49-50). 5. There is a tree in hell, named Tree of Zaqqum, from which bad fruit is given and the damned are forced to eat (37:62-67; 44:43-48; 56:52-55). 6. Heaven (Paradise), a Garden (79:41) of bliss and fruit (69:21-24), has rivers (3:198), with maidens pure and holy (4:57), and carpets and cushions, (88:8-16). 7. There will be a physical resurrection of all people (19:93-95) on the day of judgment (3:77; 15:25; 16:38; 42:29). 8. Judgment is based on a person's sincere repentance (66:8-9) and righteous deeds (5:9; 24:26; 45:21-22; 64:7). Other 1. There is an afterlife (2:154;75:12). 2. There are such things as angels, created by Allah, that are created from light. Angels are obedient slaves incapable of refusing to do Allahís will. The angel Gabriel brought the revelation of the Koran to Muhammad (2:97). 3. The Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel (2:97; 16:102). 1. There is no actual verse where the Holy Spirit is said to be Gabriel or is identified as Gabriel. These verses show that both the Holy Spirit and Gabriel brought down the revelation. 4. Jinn are unseen beings, created (51:56) from fire (15:27; 55:15), but are not angels. They have communities. There are good and bad Jinn. 5. The Devil, called Iblis, (2:34) is a bad Jinn. 6. Jesus was a great prophet but not the son of God (9:30), is not divine (5:17, 75), was not crucified (4:157). 7. Muhammad is Allahís greatest and last prophet and his message supercedes all other past prophets including Jesus. 8. The Koran is Allahís word. He literally spoke it to Gabriel who gave it to Muhammad. 9. There are other holy writings but they are superceded by the Koran. 1. The other works are 1. Torah - the First Five books of Moses 2. Injeel - the message that Jesus gave, written down, but no longer exists. The writings have been altered by scholars. Whatever agrees with the Koran is true. 3. Zaboor - the Psalms 10. Pre-ordainment (Qadar) is the teaching that all things, good and bad, are preordained to occur. 11. Fasting is to be observed during the month of Ramadan (2:185). 12. Drinking alcohol is forbidden (2:219; 4;43; 5:93-94; 16:67) 13. Gambling is forbidden (2:219; 5:90-94). 14. Man is made from the dust of the earth (23:12). 15. There is no last minute repentance (4:18). ---------- In Islam it would be impossible for God to become human, because God would have to cease to be God to do that, and it is impossible for God to cease to be God. However, God is all powerful and can do anything. Talk about your built-in confusion! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 400 Registered: 7-2004 |
I also looked up Mohammed and found this site: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm/. If you read through this you will find that Mohammed was given to epileptic siezures. Will we ever be delivered from self-proclaimed holy prophets who are dealing with epilepsy? | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 245 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy and Colleen, I basically agree with both of you on what you just posted. I was saying that 1 John 2 is the reason the cult watchers I was acquainted with hesitated in calling both groups cults. I believe RCC is a cult, and preach a false gospel of salvation, but according to 1 John 2, they don't fit the antichrist description. On SDA, I have been very clear on what I believe to be cult status, but see that even Dale Ratzlaf would not call SDA a cult, because of the basic belief structure. Jeremy, I know the quotes above, but there is evidence EGW changed her view on the person of Christ and the Trinity, or am I mistaken? I just got thru reviewing a book written by Anthony Hoekema called the 4 major cults, in which he includes Adventism. But at the same time, he carefully reviewed the scapegoat doctrine, as did Walter Martin (BTW, this Hoekema book came out 3 years after Martin's material), and both of these men see terrible problems with this doctrine, but did not call it necessary demonic, and Hoekema did call SDA one of the 4 major cults. Hoekema also says, as I did on a post on another thread, that SDA, while being a false system, still had enough saving truths that ther are a lot of truly regenerate Christians in this group. I just thought that being somewhat cautious with regard to attributing demon possession, in light of 1 John 2 might be in order. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 626 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, I do agree that there are SDAs who are sincere Christian people, but there are also those who are not. There are the deceived (some who are born again even) and there are the deceivers. I do believe that a lot of SDAs do deny Jesus per 1 John 2 (such as believing/teaching that He has a sinful nature). Regarding EGW changing her view of Christ, etc.--that is a very common myth. Some people have perpetuated that myth partly because when The Desire of Ages was "being made up" in a "shocking" manner (to paraphrase SDA President A.G. Daniells from the 1919 "Bible Conference"), with pages being written and re-written over and over again, a couple of statements were thrown in (from who knows who and by who knows who!) about Jesus being eternal, etc. That quote that I posted above for example, where she says that the man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, was first written in 1903! She continued writing and publishing anti-trinitarian and anti-Christ garbage well into the 1900s, up until her death. She never repented of it, never said her view had changed, never told the SDA cult that their statement of beliefs was wrong or that it should be changed to accept the Trinity. And we all know that if she thought the GC was wrong or needed to do somehting she would certainly let them know! At times, her writings may contain trinitarian-sounding statements, but her whole life she also taught anti-trinitarian doctrine. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on May 04, 2005) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 246 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, Thank you for that. As you can tell, I am still doing a lot of reviewing of material, that I have not read in 20 years, and, recently, my interest in the cultic, and possibly demonic aspects of EGW has been rekindled, but I want to be sure of all the documentation before I am comfortable going as far as you have in attributing these characteristics. You have clearly done more study than I have, and I am learning a lot from you. Thanks, Stan | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1800 Registered: 11-2002 |
How come so many SDA's get baptized so often? I know one SDA person who has been baptized four times. I know many others who have been baptized two and three times. The Bible teaches one baptism. SDA's get imperfect and they just get baptized again. Don't they believe in prayer, forgiveness and communion? Please tell me who they like to get baptized so often. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1893 Registered: 12-2003 |
That's actually a good question, Susan. I believe it has to do with the fact that in ADventism there is no assurance of salvation, and they feel they must be rebaptized when they become convicted they've been living apart from their beliefs in order to symbolically submit to being cleansed for those sins. It's really part of a very desperate attempt to be good enough to merit salvation. The angst and fear so many Adventists live with is overwhelming. Colleen |
