| Author | Message | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 234 Registered: 7-2000  |
Heretic, I think you are right, but there are so many various stipulations about various offerings in the Levitical Law that I will have to research it before I could say for sure that it applies to the scapegoat offering also. Let's both study it further! Bob | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 618 Registered: 10-2004  |
Heretic, first of all, the scapegoat being included in the "sin offering" should be enough to prove that it is not Satan. But yes, all of the sacrifices had to be without blemish: "Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God." (Deuteronomy 17:1 KJV.) The word translated "sheep" includes both sheep and goats. Also, according to Leviticus 4, a goat for a sin offering had to be without blemish. And the Jewish Talmud confirms that the scapegoat was supposed to be without blemish. Both of the goats had to be identical/equal--they cast lots to determine which was to be killed and which was to be set free. More proof that the scapegoat is not Satan--Jesus and Satan are not identical or equal!!!! Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1886 Registered: 12-2003  |
Heretic, you're right. In Leviticus the scapegoat and the sacrificial lamb (they could use either two lambs or two kids) were equally unblemished and were chosen by lots. That means that either one could have served as either part of the sacrifice. The SDA interpretation makes Jesus and Satan interchangeable. This fact is one of the reasons I'm certain this doctrine IS a doctrine of demons, not just bad exegesis. Mormons believe Jesus and Satan were "spirit brothers", and Satan got angry because of God's honoring of Jesus. Ellen even has quotes that say Jesus was an angel (back before time). In other words, Jesus and Satan were really equal in power and essence, but God honored Jesus and Satan became enraged. The idea of good and bad being equal forces or powers in the universe is a common theme among pagan religions--yin and yang, balance between good and evil, etc. The scapegoat doctrine is another manifestation of this heresy of the equality of good and evil. Colleen | ||
| Becky Registered user Username: Becky Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2005 |
Jeremy, My parents both claim they do not accept Ellen White as a prophet, but they fall back on "prophets don't have to be perfect they just can't speak badly about Jesus" - ya ya ya - we know what the Bible says about false prophets. Hi Colleen! I can't type but a second - the kids (3 and 5 year olds) beckon. Thanks Jeremy and all of you who listen to me blabble on. Will be in touch more later. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 619 Registered: 10-2004 |
Well...Ellen White certainly does "speak badly about Jesus"! In fact, she does so all the time in her writings. She says that Jesus was an angel, that He was not always "equal" with "God," that He had a sinful nature, that He had a "guise" of humanity, that He had a gluttonous appetite, etc., etc.--these are all statements Ellen White made about Jesus Christ! Well, her "jesus" anyway... Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1447 Registered: 3-2004  |
Becky, Welcome to FAF. I will be praying for you and your parents. This is a friendly, caring place, so keep coming back. God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Becky Registered user Username: Becky Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2005 |
Jeremy - you are so right. If Dad ever is up for listening, I will point your comments out. Diana, thanks for the invite to keep coming here. I plan to, although I may not have too much to add. It seems that the participants here are all so smart and well versed. It's great to read, but what could I add? I certainly did not mean to imply that all SDA's are possessed. I think most are genuinely wonderful Christian people trying to do what they THINK is right. What angers me is how they are being mislead and lied to. It's up to God to judge their salvation, and only He knows who truly accepts Christ and who doesn't. Love in Christ, Becky | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1451 Registered: 3-2004 |
Becky, Not all SDA's are possessed and there are those who THINK they are doing the right thing. And you have a right to be angry over being mislead and lied to. That is how I felt when I decided not to rejoin the SDA church, when I found out about EGW. I wanted to write letters to the GC president and other SDA leaders and get after them for condonning all the lies for so many years. I had to give that anger to God. He is the one who will take care of it in His time and I do not have to worry about it. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 52 Registered: 1-2005 |
Becky, I wanted to add my WELCOME to the others. Also, I can certainly relate to your frustration over relatives who are SDA. I still have one who is in the church. It's tough to see how blind she is to what should be so obvious. Some SDAs can use their religion as such an excuse for bizarre behavior, and at some point, they seem to lose their final touch with reality. But in her defense, I would say she doesn't even realize anymore the grief she's causing the rest of us. I hope your parents find their way out before they head round the blissful ignorance bend! It's encouraging to hear that your father is starting to question things! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 244 Registered: 3-2005 |
Welcome Becky to FAF. We will all be praying for your parents to see the real truth, as it is ultimately not found in the SDA church, but there are still a lot of fine Christian people in SDA. I think we have to be careful with our rhetoric, in some ways. Ascribing demon posession to people like Doug Batchelor, and other SDA leaders may be counterproductive. Our credibility with lurkers(like from R/S), suffers if we make statements that are over the top. I think it is perfectly OK to objectively point out where the theology is wrong, but to use terms like demonic possession may be going beyond objective discourse. I love threads like "God's sovereignty" where several people described exciting things God has done, and is doing in their lives, and it may be more edifying to dwell on the positive more often. However, having said this, I do understand the anger that is normal for people coming out of Cult-like structures like SDA, but too much dwelling on the negative can also be harmful. Stan | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 433 Registered: 7-2004 |
Becky, Welcome to FAF. My parents have been life long SDA...my hope and prayer for your parents is that with only 3 years "in" and with a Christian foundation they will be set free much sooner than I can see for my own parents. I firmly believe God is in control...He lead you to FAF to be a light to your parents. You are in my prayers, also. | ||
| Becky Registered user Username: Becky Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2005 |
Dd - thanks. I will be praying for your parents too. A division in the family is so horrible. I'm just trying to love my folks back into a true Christian relationship with Christ. Stan, thanks for your imput also. I agree about the negativity as well. I hadn't thought about the lurkers either. I only threw out that possibility as it had been on my mind. I'm grasping at straws to figure out why the blinders won't come off. Prayer seems to be working. Becky | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 250 Registered: 3-2005 |
Becky, You are absolutely right about the blinders, and I do believe there is an element of an oppressive spirit. I saw it in my Dad, who was the strictest and most hardened of any SDA, but I now praise the Lord, that he has been delivered from the Spirit of Adventism, and is rejoicing in God's grace. But, it took him 10 years to completely shake the blinders off, and for the veil of 2 Cor. 3 to be removed. There is a lot of hope for your parents, as it appears that already prayer is working. God is sovereign. Stan | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 41 Registered: 3-2005 |
Becky, Welcome also. Becky and Dd, I will keep your parents in my prayers, as well as praying for all our unsaved kin. My mom just recently decided to leave the SDA Church. I think the biggest witness to her was the JOY and PEACE she could see in us after we left and found a Bible-based Church. We've been bringing her with us for awhile and she could see that same Joy in all the members. She finally recognized what it means to have the assurance of Salvation. She still is struggling to really "feel" saved, but she does understand that now. At her age she has alot of "baggage" to let go of, but she is very open to learning. I think if we had "forced" the issue, she may have put up her guard. As it is, she couldn't help but see the changes in us and that was what got her interested. Let the Holy Spirit guide you as you witness to your parents. And pray for them to be open to learning. God is so good! -tisha | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 241 Registered: 7-2000 |
"I think the biggest witness to her was the JOY and PEACE she could see in us after we left and found a Bible-based Church." Tisha, I think that is the key! We "formers" need to be sure that we are truly showing the joy and peace of Jesus in our lives, instead of bitterness and carping about all the things that are wrong with Adventism! The guest preacher at my church last Sunday made a humorous comment that carried a powerful message - "If you have the joy of the Lord in your heart, make sure you notify your face!" Bob | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 251 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, Since you singled out Doug Batchelor above as one who might be demon possessed, I do need to ask you some questions. I want to make it clear that I agree Doug is infected with the spirit of Adventism, and I disagree with so much of what he says. But, the last time I checked his web site, his doctrinal statement with regard to the Trinity, and Christology seemed to be orthodox. But, knowing the research you have done, you may have evidence that you could share with us that indeed Doug is teaching doctrines of demons, and might be demon posessed? Thanks, Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 629 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, well I don't know exactly what you mean by "doctrines of demons" but the Bible says that those that teach people to abstain from certain foods are teaching doctrines of demons. Doug definitely teaches the false gospel of traditional SDAism, and from all of my experiences with him (listening to him, watching him, etc.) he just seems very demonic to me. The way he says things is so subtle and deceptive that it almost seems too crafty for just someone to come up with without demonic influence--sort of like with EGW. Also, the demon that visited Soo the Laotian lady (if the story is not made up) told her to contact Doug Batchelor, among other people. I knew there was a discussion awhile back about Doug Batchelor and I just looked it up and found it on this thread here, and saw that it was actually you Stan that mentioned how Doug really has a "worshipful" following.  He certainly seems to have some sort of bewitching type of influence on a lot of SDA people--much like EGW. Of course I can't know for sure whether he is demon possessed or not. But I do think that even if someone's theology is correct (or correct on certain points), that if the person isn't saved they are certainly open to the possibility of the control of demons, if they do not belong to Jesus Christ and haven't been born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1896 Registered: 12-2003 |
I think there's a distinction between actual "possession" and being "sold out" to a lie. It's possible that the end results are similar, but I do think there's a difference in the actual phenomena. Have any of you read Scott Peck's book "People of the Lie"? (Peck wrote "The Road Less Travelled" and became a Christian after writing that, his first book.) In People of the Lie, Peck, a psychiatrist, examines what he calls the phenomenon of "human evil". From his practice he has theorized that there are people who have so completely sold out to untruth that they have become evil. He does not see this phenomenon as demon possession but as a very severe spiritual and psychological condition which does not respond to traditional therapy. In this book he also examines actual demon possession and "group evil". It is a fascinating book, and it helped me make sense out of some very unsettling experiences I had, including some professional interaction I had with a certain well-known (now dead) SDA evangelist. Peck theorizes that the underlying characteristic of people who become evil is personal laziness. By laziness he does not mean lounging instead of working. He means refusal to do the hard work of internal integrity and dealing with truth. Laziness, in his context, means refusing to "know" what is true about oneself and one's environment, preferring the self-delusion of pretending problems aren't "that bad" or don't exist. People who persistently refuse to face reality and truth, he says, preferring self-protection and self-indulgence, eventually become evil because they are devoted to perpetuating the lie they have come to embrace. When people cross into evil, when they become "sold out" to evil and untruth, they bolster their personal myth by incredibly hurtful, irrational behavior toward those in their lives who threaten their comfortable illusion. They avoid situations where truth might be discovered, and they will resort to unbelievabley destructive means to "silence" people who threaten them. The book is fascinating (and not scary, I might add!), and I found it to be extremely helpful in understanding some of the craziness I've encountered. Jeremy, I completely understand what you are saying about Doug Batchelor. I also have a eerie feeling about him; my completely subjective (and therefore not provable!) reaction to him is guardedness and suspicion. My sense about him, however, would lean toward some degree of being "sold out" to untruth/evil rather than actual possession. Again, whenever a person serves something other than the God of truth and His reality as revealed in the Bible, that person becomes a danger to the unsuspecting. I've no personal knowledge of Doug Batchelor, and I can't say whether he is "evil" or not. I just know that his message is not Biblical, his delivery seems manipulative, and I get an uncomfortable, eerie feeling when I listen to him and watch his eyes. But then, Saul of Tarsus was a pretty evil guy before Damascus Road, also! Praise God, He knows His own. And, as Gary and Elizabeth Inrig often say, "God never allows someone to sin successfully forever." Colleen | ||
| Becky Registered user Username: Becky Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hi All, Boy, I'm sorry I suggested such a can of worms. My folks I KNOW are not evil and would be horrified at even the thought that they might be thought of that way. This is why I prefaced my thoughts that "there is some level of possession." It was just a thought as I cannot describe their conversion to SDA as none other than being under some strange spell. The other thought, the more probable, that I have is they have been brain-washed - a very real phenomenon. Brain-washing occurs when people are given so much information over a period of time (3 solid weeks or so), and the brain is not allowed to rest. Well, the seminars that my folks went to were almost every night of the weeks for several hours a night, and they were fed so much stuff so fast, they couldn't possibly have researched even a fraction of it during the 3 week seminar. My mom works, so by occupying basically all of her free time for 3 straight weeks, she became physically and mentally exhausted - hense my conclusion. I've met several SDA members, and they seem like real nice "trying to do right" people. I can't believe any of them are following this religion for any reason other than they believe it to be true. So my question is WHY are they being led astray; unquestionably some SDA leaders do know they truth (how else could they justify burying EGW's less favorable writings). SOME are hiding/lying about the truth willfully. So again, WHY - money or power perhaps??? On a brighter note, Tisha is right on about JOY and PEACE. My mother went with me to our ladies retreat last week. All she could do was go on and on about the joy and happiness she felt with these women. She even commented she wished there were ANY joy in her church. God is good and works - I prayed over this retreat and guess what happened? Mom and I were in line at the cafeteria. I asked "Debbie" what service she attended and she said, "Well, we tried the new Saturday service and liked it very much. But, there's just something I like about going on Sunday." Mom said, "Oh not us. We are Sabbath keepers." Debbie put her arm around my mom and said, "Well, Sandy that isn't a point of division now is it. I mean, we are all Sabbath keepers in Christ everyday right?" Mom had no answer. Prayer works, I'm praying for ALL (SDA and any other denomination) that doesn't have a real joy in Christ. Becky | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1901 Registered: 12-2003 |
Becky, I know your folks aren't possessed, either! And you don't need to apologize. This "can of worms" really isn't off target. The fact is, there is satanic influence in anything deliberately false, and Adventists are under a "spell" of sorts! It's definitely true that it is a spiritual power that keeps them from seeing the reality of Christ when they focus on the law, as our pastor confirmed. What a wonderful experience you had with your mom at the retreat! We have a member of our Friday night FAF group who was converted and baptized in a Baptist church when he was 17. Several years later he, too, was sucked into Adventism. For 15 years he remained in the church before figuring out what was wrong. He describes those years this way: "Adventism robbed me of my joy in the Lord." Dale Ratzlaff says this: "There are two kinds of Adventists: the deceived and the dishonest." I believe he's right. The deceived are sincere and truly believe they have "the truth". The dishonest refuse to deal with the truth for various reasons: power, money, control, comfort, being "special"... Again, don't feel as if you said something you shouldn't. This actually is a subject that eventually needs addressing in most people's minds. Truth is from God; deception is from satan. Ultimately, God knows whether our hearts desire truth and His reality or whether we live to serve ouselves. There is no neutral ground in the universe. But God protects His children. They may be deceived and wander for a while, but He never leaves them, and He redeems their experiences when they finally surrender them to Him. According to 1 Corinthians 5:4-5, God does sometimes use the assault of Satan to bring us to a point of brokenness so we will turn away from sin and our souls will be saved. Praying for you and your parents, Becky! Colleen |
