| Author | Message | ||
| Somethinfishy Registered user Username: Somethinfishy Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2004 |
I caught this phrase in the "Buffet" thread that related to an "Amazing Facts" episode, I guess you would call it, I saw yesterday afternoon. Doug Bachelor was, of course, answering an amazing amount of questions regarding the Bible, and, of course, obedience to God. One answer was about how to be saved and go to heaven, we must be obedient to God, because if we are not totally obedient all the time, we cannot go to heaven...(hoping I remember all of my sins today at bedtime...if I should die before I wake...). The idea was that if we sinned, it was because we had not totally surrendered our life to God. Satan tempts us, but the premise was that God was big enough to help us keep all of His "commands," so if we give in to temptation, it is our fault. Not to much further into the program, a question flashed on the screen asking "Who is responsible for sin?" Without skipping a beat, Doug Bachelor responded "The Devil." So....how can it be completely our fault if we sin because we have not surrendered ourself "enough" to God, but at the same time be Satan's fault? Both "original sin," and "present sin" were referenced, so there is no distinction to be made. Apparently we can blame it all on Satan, but we have no one to blame but ourselves...all at the same time. Does this seem confusing to anyone else? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1444 Registered: 3-2004  |
Convoluted, confusing and twisted, like a giant maze. Thank God all I need and want is Jesus. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1877 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, it is confusing. This mess is also related to the Adventist idea that Satan ultimately bears the guilt of sin. In Adventist theology, Satan is the scapegoat upon whom God will place the guilt of all true believers' sins. Satan will bear our sins and burn a correspondingly long time in hell because of them. Ultimately, in Adventist theology, it is not Christ who bears the guilt of our sins. He only provides the blood which is the "means" of the atonemnent. Satan bears the punishment and guilt ultimately. Talk about a satanic doctrine--Satan is the ultimate sin-bearer. Jesus does not ultimately save us from our sin by becoming sin for us. To echo Diana above: "Thank God all I need and want is Jesus." Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 613 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yes, the scapegoat doctrine is the worst one of them all. It alone should be enough to call them a cult. It is Satan worship. It is nothing but Satanism. Unfortunately, it seems that it is not talked about very much by former SDAs, web sites, cult watchers, etc. There needs to be more articles written on it--maybe even a book. It is such an evil doctrine and so contrary to the Bible and Jesus. I'm always reminded of who led EGW when I think of the quote where she says that we should pray that the scapegoat (satan) will bear our sins and that they can then be remembered no more. She doesn't even say who we're supposed to pray to--just that satan will bear our sins! It's quite creepy. Jeremy | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 412 Registered: 6-2004 |
I don't know why no alarms went off in my head when I learned this teaching of satan bearing sins. I guess I was so convinced that this woman knew what she was talking about and didn't question it. Now it's so obvious it's an outrageous lie and not supported by the Bible at all. Talk about giving allegence to the devil. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1878 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right. I agree with you, Jeremy and Pw, that the scapegoat doctrine alone is sufficient to implicate Adventism as demonic and as a cult. (I know I always take hits on one front or another when I say Adventism has a spirit or is demonic, but the reality is that only Satan could come up with so outrageous a claim as to say he bears away our sins.) This fact comes out clearly in Chris Badenhorst's article in the next Proclamation (which is currently on the press and should be ready for mailing by Friday). I do pray that people will read and absorb the facts they need to know--including the Never-been-SDA's who receive the magazine. The doctrine of Satan as scapegoat is actually horrifying to me. Colleen | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 71 Registered: 2-2005 |
I understand that the SDA's take this out of Leviticus 16, but how on earth do they construe the banished goat as being Satan? I'm not well versed in it enought to know the argument on their side. Can anyone help me out? Is this purely Sister Ellen's doing or is there alleged Biblical support that they use? | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 74 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hey, I found a church that shares this view with the SDA's. I did a google search on 'Azazel' and found this. There is a "church" called the "Church of Azazel." Yes, they are Satanists. I didn't paruse the site very long to delve into their beliefs very deeply because it so gave me the creeps. I feel like I need to have my monitor exorcised, now. Just thought that was an interesting tidbit. Things that make ya go, "Hmmmm." | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 414 Registered: 6-2004 |
I'm debating an SDA on another forum about the topic of hell. I never came out and said I was a former SDA, but posted that my former denomination taught that people are annihilated instead of actually spending eternity in hell. The debate kept going on between various posters until the SDA poster finally got angry enough to say I had to be a former Adventist and how I was pushing lies and manipulating the truth of the Bible to fit my beliefs. Boy...talk about calling the kettle black. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 231 Registered: 7-2000  |
Heretic, regarding Leviticus 16, SDAs make a big deal of the fact that the text says one goat is for the Lord, and the other for Azazel. Applying this to Satan conveniently fits their eschatology. However, they fail to take seriously that the text refers to BOTH goats as ONE OFFERING, NOT TWO! | ||
| Becky Registered user Username: Becky Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2005 |
Testing, testing. I've tried to post a couple of times but never see it appear. If this posts, I'll type out my note again. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 185 Registered: 8-2004 |
 Looks like it came thru Becky! | ||
| Becky Registered user Username: Becky Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2005 |
Yippee - must have been user error before. Hi All, My name is Becky. I lost my folks to the SDA cult three years ago - Colleen knows the whole story. Anyway, as someone who has never been SDA - ie outside looking in - I am wholeheartedly convinced this is a satanic cult. The father of all lies is Satan, and I think we all agree the history of the church was all based on "sand"/lies. After reading the Damian Israel trial, the hair on my neck stood up - it just reeks of evil. Talk about the "anti-Christ" or "taking away from Christ" how bout that Clear Word Bible. So, I was wondering if anyone else things it's just a far leap to conclude that people involved in SDA may be possessed at least on some level. My folks were raised, and raised me, Christian. I CAN'T understand the switch or the refusal to listen to any logic unless, in fact, they are under some other spell. This topic hit home with me, because last week "it came to me in vision" ha ha - actually I had a nightmare that my dad had a long tongue and my mother was sporting slanted yellow eyes. I woke up in such a cold sweat. I prayed that the Lord would never let me dream that again, and he hasn't. Anyway, relentlessly, I have been prayed for this demonic force to leave my parents and others involved in SDA. Miracles are happening and my parents, praise God are at least STARTING to think for themselves. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 861 Registered: 7-2003  |
Welcome, Becky, from another never-was SDA. Glad to have you here so you can get some great support that you'll need. There are great people here! | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 232 Registered: 7-2000 |
Becky, you may be right about it being a form of "possession." We certainly cannot eliminate that possibility. AFter all, Scripture labels false teaching as "doctrines of demons." Look at how so many SDAs refuse to even seriously consider Scripture that contradicts their indoctrination. Clearly many are under the influence of a spirit of fear and arrogance. We know that cannot be the Spirit of Jesus. Bob | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 390 Registered: 7-2004 |
Welcome, Becky. I've said it before and I continue to believe it that Jesus can be found in the SDA faith, but it's very difficult to do. I cannot understand why anyone with a full understanding of Gospel would join the SDAs, but it would be easy to join them if you were confused on one or two points. That is not to say that they are forever lost. Pray, and I mean continually pray for your parents. And every opportunity you get, show them where the great problem areas of dissonance are. If you want to find where they are, just keep reading through the posts on this site. There are also excellent books available through http://www.ratzlaf.com/ They are definitely worth the price. Continue to love your parents, and share your Joy in the Lord. Adventism with its heavy concentration on the law and obedience (read: perfection) will eventually rob your parents of their joy. They will become judgmental and prefectionistic. These are signs of the inner battle that is going on. Love can break through all of these walls, so again, keep praying. Belva | ||
| Becky Registered user Username: Becky Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2005 |
Belva, Thanks for that. Actually, I have The Cultic Doctine and Sabbath in Crisis. Up until a month ago, my dad refused to even look at those books saying, "Well, that's just one man's opinion, and I don't need to read them." The other night though, he let it slip that he was reading something by Dale Ratzlaff; it HAD to be The Cultric Doctrine as that's the only one I left at his house. My dad is starting to buck the system a bit; he takes issue with the push for vegetanarism He wrote an 18 page typed paper on it including a bunch of scripture and send it to Amazing Facts, Doug Bachelor and whoever else he could forward it to. He's hoping the see how they've "misunderstood" (not lied about) scripture. I told him he was probably going to upset the apple cart. He said he didn't care, what's right is right, and they've twisted some scriptures! Praise God, praise God, praise God. Once he figures out just how right he is, he's really going to be mad. For three years he has denied so much, and you are right, they've lost all of their friends and have become almost unbearably judgmental. I've told Dad about the Clear Word Bible before; he refused to believe the SDAs had anything like that since they don't use it in his church. Last week, I showed him a copy. I thought he was going to cry, and then, that other spirit took over again. He said, "Well, you have footnotes in your Bible, this Bible just adds it opinions into scripture. Both opinion and scripture are included in both Bibles so this doesn't mean anything." I said, "Dad, think about what you just said. It's O.K. to change or delete scripture? Isn't that "taking away from Christ" like you claim the spirit of the anti-Christ (Catholicim) does???" He couldn't answer - just looked confused. Confused is good - I'll take it. I love this website. It has been such a support for me and such a wealth of information. Thanks, thanks, thanks | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 614 Registered: 10-2004 |
Becky, Welcome to the forum! We are glad you're here. The SDAs are under a satanic hold, and that is why they won't listen to logic/reason/Scripture. It takes a miracle of God to remove the veil (2 Corinthians 3). I do think that a lot of SDAs may actually be demon possessed (the ones who are not saved). I definitely think some of the leaders, such as Doug Batchelor, may be demon possessed. That is great to hear that your dad is starting to question. That is exactly how I started my way out of the bondage of SDAism--with rejecting the vegetarianism doctrine (which 1 Timothy 4 says is a doctrine of demons). Once I saw that the SDA prophet Ellen G. White definitely wrote things about eating meat, etc. that were anti-Biblical, I started really doubting that she was a true prophet. It might be helpful to discuss with your dad the fact that Ellen G. White taught the unBiblical vegetarianism doctrine, while claiming that what she wrote came from God Himself! Does your dad believe that Ellen G. White was a true prophet of God? Ellen White says some pretty bad and even blasphemous things regarding vegetarianism/meat-eating etc. She even teaches that you can't be saved if you eat meat! Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1881 Registered: 12-2003 |
Becky, it's good to have you here! I believe Adventists are under demonic oppression. I think it's possible that some are possessed, but I wouldn't say they all are. Oppressed or harrassed, definitely. Since the church was founded on lies, Satan has a claim on the church. I believe Adventists, whether they know it or not, have a spiritual claim on them. That doesn't mean they can't be searching for Jesus and maybe even find Him. Jesus will reveal Himself to all who truly wish to know him. As long as a person clings to Adventism, though, I believe there is a limit to how well they can know Jesus and a limit to how honest they are able to be. I believe the spiritual claim of Adventism is the reason people have such a hard time seeing the truth, accepting the Bible, and leaving once their heads have acknowledged the facts. Adventism is not just a religious "preference". It is formulated on and actively teaches doctrines of demons. People are in spiritual trouble when they are Adventists. Yet God has allowed it to flourish--and I believe, as our pastor has said, that God allows heresy so the (real!) church will not slacken its commitment to searching and knowing the Scriptures. Again, as one among us here on the forum has said, there are some true Christians in Adventism, but they are the ones who are never comfortable because they do not hear their Father's voice. Anyone who finds Jesus in Adventism does so IN SPITE of Adventism. It is directly an act of God. And God will redeem all of the years we have spent there. Colleen | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 75 Registered: 2-2005 |
Bob, And I'm not sure where this is found, but wasn't it required that all sin offerings had to have been without blemish? Because if so, what logical person would conclude that Satan is without blemish? Maybe I'm off here. |
