| Author | Message | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2004 |
I just finished reading Cultic Doctrine by Dale Ratzlaff and now know what all the fuss is about. This book has synthesizes and organized into one readable volume many of the topics I have been struggling with, and researching for the last 8 months. I would recommend it to anybody who is looking for a detailed and yet concise book to share with those who are searching for answers and/or are wondering why some of us are choosing to leave Adventism. I will be ordering several more copies to pass along because the fraud has gone on long enough. I hope that God can use me to in some way help cushion the landing of those near and dear who are going to feel utterly betrayed by the conspiracy of the SDA hierarchy regarding the Investigative Judgement and Ellen White's writings. I am afraid most of them will just not get it,however maybe I need to leave that to God and the Holy Spirit. It will be exciting to see how God leads in this challenging time. Your Prayers as always, Randy | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 60 Registered: 2-2005 |
Randyg, My prayers are with you. I ordered my copy a couple of weeks ago and haven't received it, yet. I can't wait to read it. Have you read Ratzlaff's other book Sabbath in Christ? It's also an easy read and highly contextual. All the best, Heretic | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 420 Registered: 7-2004 |
Randy, Another excellent book to give to your SDA friends is Greg Taylor's book "Discovering the New Covenant: Why I am no longer an SDA". It can be found on Dale's website. I have ordered 10 books at a time along with Dale's little pamphlet "The Truth about SDA Truths". Then I have them on hand to give to someone who God leads me to that may just beginning to wonder. I even keep some in the truck of my car and carry a copy of each in my Bible bag. I have given several out to my non-SDA Christian friends so that they understand what an SDA may be going through. Greg Taylor is a former SDA pastor. His book is very short and easy to read. He is not bashing SDAs but uses the Bible as he tells of his own discoveries and journey that lead him away from Adventism to complete rest in Jesus. My prayers are daily lifting us all up to God to be used by Him to share His grace and peace to those we know and love. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thank-you Dd and Heretic for your comments.I also just finished reading Greg Taylor's book.It is an expansion of his "Open letter to friends and family" found in the stories section of this site. It is also a great heartfelt story of searching and discovery,and definitely a SHARE book. I am half way through "Sabbath In Christ" and it appears to answer a lot of the questions for those who's only remaining guilt-tie to adventism is the sabbath question.Again ,a great resource that asks all the questions and presents bible-based answers. An Adventist who reads any of these books we definitely have more QUESTIONS about their beliefs and church than before reading them. And any questioning Adventist will definitely have more ANSWERS about their beliefs and church than they did before reading them. All to Jesus I Surrender, Randy | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 57 Registered: 3-2005 |
Just a question, my family still in the SDA church swear that they've checked out many of Ratzloff's claims and that they are out and out lies. I've read Cultic Doctrine and don't know what they would be referring to. My family also talk about a video going around full of lies. Any ideas about what the video is or what it says? Lisa | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1828 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, the video is "Seventh-day Adventism: The Spirit Behind the Church" by Jeremiah Films. Dale Ratzlaff distributes it, too. It has narrations by several pastors who left including Robert Sanders, Dale Ratzlaff, Mark Martin, etc. It reveals several of Ellen's less-well-known (more embarrassing) quotes including that she was taken to the planet where Enoch was; she saw Jupiter's moons--but she didn't see the moons modern telescopes have found--etc. The remake of the movie is less "shocking" than the first; I think the Adventists had such an outcry that the producers decided the movie would be more believable and less "tabloid-ish" if they left out some of the stuff she wrote about masturbation and animal passions. It's actually a good movie (and it tells the truth), but it is on the sensational side. Randy, congratulations on reading Cultic Doctrine. That book is what did it for me; after that, I was able to process the doctrines. There was NO DOUBT Ellen was a false prophet. Dale was blessed to be able to accumulate research and present it in a remarkably dispassionate, readable, and logical way. When I read Sabbath in Crisis (precursor to Sabbath in Christ) I realized that only a former Adventist could deal with the arguments he addresses. Only someone who has been an Adventist would even know what minute details to address from Scripture. Isn't it amazing to realize that God has called you personally?! Colleen | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2004 |
Colleen, thank-you for your words. When I first started reading on this site I thought your comments were a little(?) strong regarding Ellen White.However, that sentiment has changed. This whole debacle starts with her, however I think the blame for the continued deception rests largely on the past and present Church hierarchy and administrators, many of whom I know. Randy | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 111 Registered: 2-2005 |
Colleen, you are right on target with your comment about God calling us personally out of Adventism. I've had discussions about the Sabbath recently with several Adventist pastors. When I shared Colossians 2:16-17 with one of them, his comment was "well, that verse doesn't fit with the rest of the Bible, so I don't believe it says what you claim it does". Another told me that I believed a "bubblegum theology" version of the Bible, implying that I was being too simplistic in my understanding of Scripture. I've also had the opportunity to discuss these issues with several (non-Adventist) Christian pastors who didn't really see the full weight of their importance. One Lutheran pastor I talked with didn't even understand the concept of the old and new covenants! Adventists, members of the Worldwide Church of God and converted Jews (among others), by virtue of their religious upbringing in the old covenant, have a unique, and I would argue, more complete understanding of God's interaction with mankind. A believer coming from this background, through the leading of the Holy Spirit, will uniquely appreciate how Scripture presents a complete and perfect picture of God's plan for our salvation, unfolded through the old and new covenants and personified in Jesus. He is awesome! Greg (Message edited by greg on April 24, 2005) | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 422 Registered: 7-2004 |
I am beginning to give thanks to God for my SDA background. Yes, it most definitely was dysfunctional and, yes, I made some horrific choices directly related to my false doctrinal beliefs that have had some very harsh consequences. And, like Paul I am experiencing persecution for my New Covenant beliefs... BUT...I am joyful in all the past dysfunction and pain! Because of the past I am resting TODAY in the grace and peace of Jesus! It makes the rejection of my family and friends an experience that actually brings me comfort. To you Lord Jesus, I surrender ALL! | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 113 Registered: 2-2005 |
Just a clarification to my post above--I meant to use "Former Adventists" in the last paragraph. Clearly many current Adventists don't understand the unfolding of the old and new covenants from the Bible, instead relying on a fusion of the two. Dd, I don't have the same pain in my Adventist experience as you, but reading your post made me think of the stories of Christian martyrs who gladly went to their deaths for their belief in Jesus, knowing the temporary pain they would experience was insignificant when measured next to an eternity with him. Greg | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 214 Registered: 3-2005 |
I just finished reading Cultic Doctrine, and enjoyed it and learned a lot. But I was left at the conclusion of the book wondering somewhat exactly Dale Ratzlaf really believes about SDA being a cult. I was amazed that he stopped short of even calling early historical SDA a cult, although he did refer to them as cultic. And, he definitely stopped short of calling current Adventism a cult. Or, since this book was written, have his views evolved any further? I believe Mark Martin does call SDA a cult, or am I wrong about that? Any Comments? Stan | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 62 Registered: 2-2005 |
Stan, Mark Martin does indeed label SDA a cult, lumping it in with all the others (ie, LDS, CS, the J-Dubs, etc.) I don't know about Razlaff, though. I suppose you could always email him. Today, my copy of Cultic Doctrine and The Sabbath and the Lords Day came in the mail. I can't wait to start in on CD! Heretic | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 588 Registered: 10-2004  |
Mark Martin does call them a cult, although sometimes he has a hard time with totally dismissing them as a Christian organization, it seems. I was also shocked at Dale's refusing to call them a cult. I could not believe those summaries that he has of each group. Especially with a title of Cultic Doctrine, and then he doesn't even say that the SDA church is a cult or even definitely cultic, if I remember correctly. To me, they are one of the "cultiest" of all cults. Jeremy P.S. An interesting sidenote: according to the ad in the back of Sabbath in Crisis, it appears that the original title of Ratzlaff's book was going to be Cult at the Core. (Message edited by jeremy on April 25, 2005) | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 852 Registered: 7-2003  |
I wondered if he had done that to not scare people away from reading it basing their opinion on the title and not examining its content?? He does have family still in the religion, I presume...and some need to balance harsh honesty with truth in love??? Just guessing. But I did wonder the same things mentioned above. | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2005 |
I have not read the book yet, but intend to soon. I do, however, understand his not calling the SDA church a cult. I know personally many, many SDA's that are very sincere in their walk with God. Let's face it, if you hand a Bible to most SDA's and ask them to explain the whole IJ to you they have a hard time doing so without a study guide to help them. I doubt even Clifford Goldstein could do it before he wrote the book. Look at the thread on this website "they pulled another cut and run", go look for a complete explanation from Pastor O'Fill. He had a hard time. The IJ, in my opinion is a cultic doctrine but most SDA's that I know don't know it well enough to defend or defeat it. I know I have a hard time with it and I have gone over it since first grade in church school thru college, seminars, SS lessons etc. It is a tangled mess that takes you nowhere. For an SDA to come to grips with the IJ they need to first open their eyes to EGW. Once they do that, the sincere followers of Christ will drop her fairly quickly and stand on the Word of God, the source of the knowledge of Him. Sometimes that takes time, unfortunately. She knew that. That is why she threatened people with eternal darkness etc. if they disbelieved the testimonies. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 591 Registered: 10-2004 |
I am sure there are many Mormon people who are very sincere and who don't understand some of the Mormon church's cultic doctrines. But that doesn't mean the church is not a cult. The reason I call the SDA a cult is because they match all the marks of a cult. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1837 Registered: 12-2003 |
I cannot prove this, but I suspect that Dale's views have solidified some since he wrote the book. I remember several years ago stating to him that I believed there was a spirit of Adventism that had to be renounced. He was polite and NOT dismissive, but he did not overtly agree. In recent months I have heard him say that there "does seem to be" a spirit of Adventism. I have been glad that Mark Martin makes fairly bold statements. (I guess I feel less "rabid" knowing Dale and Mark also see Satanic influences in the church!) Praise God that all we need is Jesus. He is enough--He is everything! Colleen | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 61 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, My little 2 year old baby loves the picture of your dog, and dances around and claps when he sees his cute little face  And to all, Adventism may not affect everyone in a cult like manner. Some admittedly are just along for the ride, but it sure had the cultic effect on our family. It matches the description of a cult.... if it swims like a fish and feels like a fish and smells like a fish, it might be ok to call it a fish. Lisa | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 404 Registered: 6-2004 |
I have no problem calling the SDA a cult. I even go as far as telling others I was involved in a cult before really knowing God. The doctrines of the SDA are way off base from the Bible, due to having EGW's writings being used as "training wheels". | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 221 Registered: 7-2000  |
When I am talking with Christians who have never been SDA, I almost always use the word "cult." I believe Adventism IS a cult, and my use of that loaded word often provokes a surprised response from my listener which tells me that he or she does not have the real facts about Adventism - then I offer more info! It is very important that we educate the Christian community about what SDAs REALLY believe, teach and practice. Bob |
