| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1826 Registered: 12-2003  |
Richard, I don't know. Cross-Talk is broadcast on the Hope channel, the official SDA satellite "station". You might try a Google search of Cross-Talk/Richard O'Fill and see if you can find archived copies. I agree--when I heard him discounting the tearful response even he had at the PK meeting where the men were being called to lay down their differences and be united in Christ, it just felt "wrong". Praise God that He really is the God of unity in Him alone! Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 121 Registered: 1-2003  |
Colleen I thought you ment when you said "he was interviewed online," that the program was being webcast?? I did do a google search and came up with nothing useful.  Richard PS: While I do not believe my beliefs or "doctrine" are based on emotional response I do believe that my relationship with my risen Savior will elicit an emotion that at times is almost like a consuming fire of graditude and love. At other times it is just a quiet assurance of His presence and knowledge of His all sufficent sacrifice. Sorry but I feel so strongly about this I'm almost SHOUTING in my head. I remember one PK meeting where we had 50-60 men from our church there and something like 55,000 (? it has been years so not sure but it was packed) total. There were times when many of us were flat on our faces in worship. No one paid any attention to any other person. We just felt so awed to be in His presence as we worshiped. I know that this may be uncomfortable to some and it is not my usual everyday attitude but it should be as i come into His presence. We serve an awesome GOD ! ! Sorry this may not be making sense, I'm going to send and not edit before I chicken out and don't send. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 419 Registered: 7-2004 |
Richard, You make perfect sense. I am glad you did not chicken out... Since I am female, I cannot attest to PKs but I have been to a Women of Faith weekend. It was very much as you described the PK conference. It was such a thrill to be in a huge arena with 25,000 women praising God. It made me hungry for Heaven. I think that is exactly how we will worship...in adoration, reverence, joy, shouting, silence...GLORIOUS! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 583 Registered: 10-2004  |
Richard, the program from last night was "Cross Talk CT #23 'A Forgotten Day'" and it will be airing again tomorrow morning at 9:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time. Here is the link to the schedule, and from there you can click to watch online: Click Here. It appears that it will also be airing Monday at 5pm PDT. You can keep clicking next at that link to see if it will be aired at other times. Jeremy | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2005 |
Colleen, you made such great points above. I have been catching up, reading the posts from "they pulled a cut & run", which had links to the O'Fill discussions and also to the EarlySDA forum. I just get so depressed reading quotes from people who rely on EGW to determine the path to salvation, which is to focus on self-perfection. Then they use the Bible for proof-texts, as a whip to prove EGW. I was there a short time ago. Isn't it amazing how the perspective changes, widens and deepens when you just totally let go of EGW and that depressing, self-righteous dogma. God just opens your eyes and you are so amazed that you didn't see the shallowness before, especially when you thought you were digging deep. Wow. Their focus on current events and waiting for the National Sunday Law just seems so sad. There are billions of people waiting to meet Jesus and they sit cloistered in their little SDA cliques waiting for the time of the end. It causes you to focus on your own perfection and just totally negates the assurances given by the New Testament and cheapens the sacrifice of Christ. I guess God just gives you what you can handle when it is time for you. Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest. Thanks for listening. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 357 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dt, nothing to apologize for. We have all had that ahah moment when we could finally step outside of the mindset and look back at it. You describe that moment so well, and yes, the mindset almost counts as nothing the sacrifice of Jesus. I want to throw up my hands and scream every time I hear or read someone talking about how Jesus came to be our example. He came to rescue us from sin. It is almost laughable to think of any of us imitating Jesus. We would be walking around from town to town healing people, turning water to wine, walking on water... It is absolutely ludicrous to think we can follow his example given that framework. Yes, follow his instructions, but you cannot imitate him. He is God, you and I are not. Without his being willing to take on the form of mankind and living out his life here in perfect conformation with God's laws, his death and resurrection, we would be without hope. He is my Saviour, not my mentor. I want to be like him in that I want to be given that mantle of righteousness he died in order to bestow upon me, but it has nothing to do with me imitating his life. I've come to the point where it is absolutely clear to me that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. We are not just talking about a little scratch, a few drops of blood and then a bandaid. The amount of blood that had to be spilled had to be enough to cause the death of the individual who was bleeding. Mel Gibson's "The Passion of Christ" was very good and portraying that gory and unyielding horror that was the death of Jesus. Jesus could have opted out of that at any moment and said to himself, "Nobody here understands what I'm doing for them, so I'm going back home." He could have done that, but he didn't. He loved you and me too much to let his own pain get in the way of completing his purpose at the cross. Let's see the SDA's follow Jesus' example and go to the cross the way he did. Is that one of the examples they wish to follow him in doing? There are Christians throughout recorded history who have followed Jesus all the way to death, but I doubt that they really wanted to die just to save someone else. Most of the time those precious martyred souls were captured and forced to take on the martyr's death. I'm thinking of that young girl at Columbine High School who responded to the question, "Are you a Christian?" with a "Yes," and she was shot while her captor bragged that he was introducing her to Jesus. She didn't wake up that morning thinking, "Well, today I am going to school so I can die for my faith." Jesus knew each step of the way that the cross was his goal. Okay, I had to get that off my chest. Yes, I want to learn from Jesus, and each day I want to follow him more closely, but I'll never become a master healer, master story teller, master martyr. I can only pray that Jesus will guide me to those things he has planned for me to do to be a useful member of the Body of Christ. Belva | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 41 Registered: 1-2005 |
Wow! I've just been catching up on all these discussions and am amazed at what I am reading. I went to the site that Belvalew and Freeatlast were talking about - and read the dialogue posted there - with Diane's comments. My mouth fell open with astonishment at the hateful spirit that was being thrown at Freeatlast! It must have meant so much to have Diane reply to your post in such a loving way. I thought I had seen everything about the effects of SDA doctrine on people - but find I can still be shocked. Such revelations are most helpful during those times that the old brain grooves get washed with seemingly logical SDA theology in a conversation with a well meaning SDA friend or family member. Like Lisa mentioned on another post, the affect of such conversations can send me into a tailspin of darkness. Freeatlast's encounter on the other forum will help to fill in the old "grooves" of my brain and allow room for new ones! The light and dark were so well obviously contrasted there. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1407 Registered: 3-2004  |
This morning I was thinking, and all of a sudden I realized that what I was thinking was not from the Bible, but EGW. Like everyone who has left adventism, I used to think that Jesus was our example and we needed to follow His example. Belva, you just emphasized that we cannot and it finally hit home in my brain. We cannot follow his example, because He is God and I am not. That is why He died for me. His blood covers my sins and me so when the Father sees me, He sees Jesus. If I am wrong please correct me. When I read the writings on the SDA web site, they are so tangled and I honestly do not understand them. But when I read the Bible, it is so clear. Thank you God for Jesus. He is all I need. You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 349 Registered: 5-2002 |
It happens to all of us, Belva. I will always refer to myself as a "Recovering Adventist". The triggers will always be there. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 350 Registered: 5-2002 |
sorry, I meant Diana! | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 371 Registered: 4-2000  |
Belvalew, Great thoughts in your post about the salvific reason why Jesus became a God-man, dwelt among us, and died for us. We are counted as perfect only in Christ. He is our Substitute. What a wonderful Savior! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 112 Registered: 2-2005 |
Belva, Thanks for your message above. I have learned a lot from you. Greg | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 360 Registered: 7-2004 |
This is a direct message to any people from R/S who are reading here. Don't you miss us? Now that you have weeded out all but the voices of people who totally agree with you it seems you no longer have anything to say. Your board has gone very quiet. I will continue to pray that the Revelation God, whom we all serve, will open up our hearts and minds, air out all of the rooms that have been closed up and without light, and that a fresh wind from the Holy Spirit will cleanse us all from preconceived notions and misunderstandings, and thus bring us everyone to the feet Christ in front of the throne of grace. God bless you all. You are welcome here, and we will study out things with you. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1412 Registered: 3-2004 |
To all those people from the R/S site, I second what Belva has said above. When we were posting on the R/S site, the discussions got lively and there were a lot of them and now all is quiet. Like Belva, I pray that the God of Heaven, the I AM, the Alpha and Omega, whom we all serve, will send the Holy Spirit to each one of us, to open our minds, eyes and ears to His awesome truths in the Bible. Father, bring us to the foot of the throne of grace to Jesus feet where all of us will worship Him. God, You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 61 Registered: 2-2005 |
Belva, I read this passage today in a book I'm reading by Watchman Nee called The Normal Christian Life. I found it pertinent to your post: I know the above quote is on the long side, but as someone journeying out of Adventism, I found this to be a powerful passage and wanted to share it with all of you (including our visitors from other sites). Our Lord has completed our work for us. There is nothing we can do to be reckoned as righteous other than to accept His free gift to us. Why on earth would anyone reject it or minimize it by trying to add more to it like somehow Christ's sacrifice just wasn't enough?! Praise our Lord and Saviour for His wonderful grace. How could there ever be a more awesome God than ours?! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 361 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Heretic, I couldn't have said it better. For someone wrestling with sin, and the frustration that comes with constantly efforting to "be good" and "keep the law" there is no better primmer that Romans. The entire, wonderful book of Romans, and in particular the 3rd and 4th Chapters of Romans. It has been said that if you understand those two chapters, you will understand the Gospel -- indeed, you will understand the entire bible. This will require the individual to lay aside all prior notions and training, and simply ask the Holy Spirit to unfold the wonders of Grace to you as you delve into this terrific book. Paul truly understood the law and the gospel, and he knew how to state the purposes of each. Jesus Loves You. That is the most important thing any of us will ever need to know. Grace allows you to completely rely upon Him to work out the end from the beginning. Belva | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 217 Registered: 3-2005 |
I agree with how dead it is over at R/S right now. Under the "obey" thread you have ejclark reminding us that Christ entered the Holy Place at his ascension, and then the Most Holy Place in 1844, and that is when the 10 commandments really took effect! Then you have a thread under "worship", and the topic of "drama", and you have people discussing whether it is appropriate that Doug Batchelor does backflips on stage--I'm not kidding--More stimulating Forums!! Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 364 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ah River, I thought I was the only one falling asleep while reading their posts. All they seem interested in is keeping the law foremost as a topic, and making certain that the good SDA pastors avoid levity in their services. BORING! They may not be trying hard to wring all the joy out of life, but it's gone anyway. My favorite sermons are those that can make me respond with a little emotion. Laughter is an emotional response. It adds flavor to an otherwise dry topic sometimes. I'm not saying they should have standup comedy on the platform, but please do something to keep the congregation awake. I guess EGW didn't see things that way, so onigiri has made the assertion that levity should never be a part of the worship service. Forgive me, but I can sleep better at home. I refuse to get all dressed up, wear those uncomfortable shoes and then end up falling asleep in a pew. I'm glad EGW didn't have any pull with the Presbyterians. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 594 Registered: 10-2004 |
I've said it before, and I will say it again, because it is true: FUN = SIN according to EGW. Really. Jeremy | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 366 Registered: 7-2004 |
Romans 3:20-28 (NIV) Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what Principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. ----- I've been watching Dr. Gene Scott's study on these verses, where he go goes back to the Biblical languages and, as he says, pulls apart the languages to get down to the nitty gritty of the meaning. He has spent three hundred weeks worth worth of sermons on Romans and thus far hasn't gotten any further than the third chapter. That is how thorough his study has been. Martin Luther said that if a person understands these verses quoted above, he will understand the whole message of Romans, in fact they will understand the entire direction and purpose of scripture itself. That means these are very important words to fully understand. I felt like stating some of the things the original Greek says, but cannot be "smoothly" stated when translated. Please bear with me, but I'm growing very passionate about this now. Verse 20: Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sign by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. This is pretty self explanatory--the law is a mirror, we look into it and see that we have lived lives that are contrary to its precepts. Verse 21: But now a righteousness from God, apart from law (that is any law, even the petty laws about food, dress, and so forth), has been made known to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This, too, explains itself very well. Since we cannot look to the law to help us find righteousness, we need to go to a more effective source. This separate righteousness is testified to by the Law itself, and by the Prophets. Even the Law is backup for the fullness of the ransom of Jesus Christ. Verse 22: This righteousness from God (now I'm going to state it as the Greek would state this) comes through the faith of Jesus Christ to all the faithing ones. There is no difference, The thing that is made clear is that Jesus acted in faith when he died for our sins. He went willingly to the cross to provide the righteousness that will effectively liberate us from sin. We are saved by his faith--his faith in his Father, and his faith that there would be those who would choose to benefit by his sacrifice. Yes, we need to have faith in Jesus and his blood sacrifice for our sins, that is why we qualify as "the faithing ones." Verse 23: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Verse 24: and are "righteousified" (true meaning of the Greek word that has been translated as "justified") freely by his grace through the "ransom" (again a closer meaning than "redemption") that came by Christ Jesus. Verse 24: God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (the actual Greek pictures Jesus as becoming the "mercy seat", or the actual cover of the ark of the covenant), through faith in his blood. He (God the Father) did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand (from Adam's time until the time of the cross) unpunished -- Verse 26: he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who "righteousifies" those who have faith in the blood of Jesus. Yes, I know I put in the blood word, because the Greek repeatedly in these verses states that our faith in Jesus is actually a dependence upon his blood to ransom us. Verse 27: Where, then is boasting? (boasting comes from a German word that means puffed up or bloated) It is excluded (In the Greek this an absolute statement, nobody gets to brag, absolutely no one!) On what principle? On that of observing the law? No! (Greek, is absolute here--absolutely Not!), but on that of faith in the blood of him (him, being Jesus Christ). For we maintain that a man is righteousified by faith apart from observing the law. There you go. We are saved, made righteous, by an agreement made between God the Father and God the Son. The Son, Jesus, agreed to ransom us from sin, and that if we are willing to deem his blood freely spilled for us as adequate, that faith will qualify us for eternity with the Lord. Not knowledge of the law. Since when has a mirror ever ransomed a life? And, the argument about God needing to be seen as being just; that is resolved in verse 26, when all of those who were held in the bosom of Abraham, who were sinners but had not received the punishment due them, all were deemed ransomed by the blood of Christ Jesus. There is no need for an investigative judgment here. That judgment was completed at the cross. All done, for all time. Read through these verses a few times until you get really clear on them. You will see how much "doing" humans are required to "do." None! All we need is a toe-hold on the facts of this exchange between the Father and the Son, and you hang the full weight of you faith on that, God, through the blood of Jesus Christ, has seen all of the faithing ones as ransomed by that same blood. |
