| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 207 Registered: 3-2005 |
I am still sitting here in disbelief over the EGW quotations from 1SM P.32 quoted by Walk on that thread above. This is what EGW claimed the Lord told her, "My Saviour DECLARED ME to be HIS MESSENGER, "Your work", he instructed ME, "is to bear My Word..."I will make My Word open to you. It shall not be as a strange language...The messages FOR THESE LAST DAYS SHALL BE WRITTEN IN BOOKS, AND SHALL STAND IMMORTALIZED!!" Compare these words to what God really said, in Hebrews 1:1,2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke IN TIME PAST to the fathers by the prophets, HAS IN THESE LAST DAYS SPOKEN TO US BY HIS SON," Wow! Here we have a clear statement of the fact that THESE LAST DAYS started in the 1st century, Now here comes someone claiming that Christ's words FOR THESE LAST DAYS ARE CONTAINED IN MY BOOKS! I hope you guys--Walk and Colporteur, and the rest of your crowd are reading this site. Please, tell me, How can you be so deceived? We will all be looking for your answers as you post on your site, since we have been banned. Please wake up! Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 344 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colporteur is struggling with the nature of Christ and whether that means he can hope to be perfect this side of glory. ---------- It is Satan's claim and that of his helpers, that it is impossible for fallen man to obey God. There are those that think that Jesus had an advantage over us because of His divine nature therefore His obedience was really not an example for us to follow because we could not do so. When God's people reveal in their lives that, as they allow the divine nbature to rule in them and empower them, that they can obey just as Jesus did; when God reveals the records of the lives of His people in the judgment , those like Free who think we could not be free from sinful acts, will not again speak a word in defence of sin in the lives of man. ----------- Jesus didn't become a man in order to be my example, he did it to save my sorry ... That is just what he did. He did that completely. I have faith that one day I will experience what it means to be completely sinfree, but that day will not come until after this mortal body puts on immortality. There is also the fact that Col doesn't believe that there is an eternal aspect to the soul of man so he cannot grasp that at the time of the new birth his eternal nature has been redeemed. His physical nature, the fallen part, that part of him that is susceptible to original sin will not be redeemed until that body puts on immortality. That is the tension that Christians live with every day. He came so very close to speaking a saving truth when he said, "There are those that think that Jesus had an advantage over us because of His divine nature therefore His obedience was really not an example for us to follow because we could not do so." Dear Colporteur, that is the case. Jesus was born of the virgin, with his divine nature intact from conception forward. He was born of the Davidic line because that is how the Saviour would be recognized. He was born human, but he was the second Adam, the second divine Adam. I'm so glad that he was endowed with that extra component, that he retained his Godhood while he walked this earth. Without that, we would have all been lost. My spirit is hidden in Christ in accordance with his many promises, and one day my mortal body will put on immortality and I will begin to experience being totally without sin. Until then I'll celebrate that Jesus had the victory over sin and death and then gave that victory to me through faith. Belva | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 345 Registered: 7-2004 |
The SDA love to talk about how believing that we have an immortal soul is buying into Satan's lie that we will never die. Well, we died. We lost the Holy Spirit part of our soul when Adam and Eve fell. At Pentacost that Holy Spirit spark was breathed once again on mankind, and amazing things have been happening every since. They traded in what they thought was a lie for a real one. They traded in the eternal aspect of each human being, that part that God breathed into Adam, for the belief that truth believers--law keepers will be able to become perfect before Jesus comes again. Problem is that this lie will allow those who believe it to become puffed up, prideful. It sometimes shows in the way they deal with others. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 841 Registered: 7-2003  |
What do they do with 1 John that says if anyone says he has no sin, he is calling God a liar? No matter how hard you try, and follow Jesus' "example", we can't get there. If we do, we are without sin, and ultimately end up calling God a liar. Doesn't that verse play in their schematic anywhere? You can't achieve perfection...it's not possible, or you conflict with the word of God... It's not that I have a cavalier attitude about sin, but I diligently try not to beat myself up when I do what I shouldn't have ... seek forgiveness, and move forward. Sin, however, is a part of who I am. Whether it is one of the "big" sins that people like to wag their tongues about, or the little ones that don't seem to get noticed. It's like my 2-year old running in the yard. He naturally falls while running, but he gets up (maybe wanting a kiss for a 'boo-boo'), then keeps going. I've learned a lot watching him in my "old" age. You're right, Belva. SDAs are some of the most arrogant people I've ever met...even among pagans. And that was Satan's ultimate sin...pride. Fortunately, the only real "righteousness" I have is that which Christ veils me in. I hope mine never shows through! | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 |
It is interesting that pastor O'fill should mention Paul and his preaching another message. Paul and all of the apostles firmly believed that Jesus' return WAS imminent. They WERE preaching an end-time message. They were to tell the world that Jesus died for their sins, that salvation was theirs by proclaiming Jesus Christ their Lord and Saviour. That was the message. All you have to do is read it, page by page, chapter by chapter without dissecting each and every verse for hidden meanings. My question about the IJ and all the various and assorted trappings that go with it is this: Would the disciples or apostles have lived their lives any differently if they were under the IJ? Nit-picking aside, what possible difference could it make to a follower of Jesus WHERE in heaven He happens to be? Don't we all, as Christians, believe in a judgment? We are saved by the blood of Christ, not by his location in heaven. Did any of the apostles claim to have conquered sin, since they were living in the last days they SURELY must have been preparing for the time of Jacob's trouble? Have you ever known any Christian, SDA or not, that could make that claim? O'fill is a hard right-wing SDA. He and others like him took their focus off of Jesus and the plan of salvation long ago. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 169 Registered: 8-2004 |
Welcome Dt! I agree that Paul and the other WERE preaching the imminent return of Christ - and I think they were right. Jesus IS coming soon! Whether we are to die before he comes or meet him while still alive on earth, our joy is that he IS returning and has accepted us into the Beloved! Helovesme2 | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 417 Registered: 7-2004 |
DT, Good logical questions that you have posed...it is all about Jesus. Paul told us in Ephesians 5 to not be deceived with "empty words". We know that the devil can be "an angel of light". To me the IJ is more evidence of how he works as an angel of light deceiving with empty words...it all about nit-picking that seperates us from Jesus. Welcome. Thanks for sharing. I will look forward to hearing more about you. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 347 Registered: 7-2004 |
The following is a post on R/S by sdazeal. It appears that zeal cannot accept that Jesus can save us without making us "perfect" before he returns for us. Basically we are dealing with another person who doesn't understand the fallen nature of mankind, and that the new birth has to do with the eternal aspects of man's soul, but that the flesh is still fallen. Where you see arrows, it is indicating that sdazeal is quoting someone else, and that someone, I believe, is FreeAtLast. ---------- >>>>>>>>>The Gospel is that Jesus Christ died for your sins and mine. He came to set us free from the law of sin and death.<<<<<<< Agreed, but has he really set you free from the law of sin and death? That is a literal plan, not merely a forensic one. Have you cried "Who shall deliver me from this body of death"? The answer is "God can deliver you from this body of sin and death". If you still have a "body of death" then heaven is not your future home. There will be no sin there. If you would read the rest of Romans, and the rest of the Bible, you would see that. >>>>>>>>So are you free from sin and all worldly tendencies, and do you walk righteously in this present age? Or does your gospel not work as advertised?<<<<< 1- It is not my gospel, but God's. And if it does not work, then the Bible is a sham, because that is what the Bible teaches. If it does not work, then Jesus was a false messiah, because it is what He taught. Your argument is not with me. 2- I have not yet reached the fullness that Christ wants for my life. But that is because of my own choices.I sometimes choose not to lay hold of God's amazing grace to escape temptation. However, I am not the man I was six years ago, not even close. He that began a good work in me is faithful to complete it. I also know people who are very righteous and loving. They may not see themselves as perfect, but I find no fault with them. God's gospel does indeed work. If people would stop sowing seeds of doubt (the accuser's job) in the minds of God's people, they would see the mighty power of Christ work in their lives. Now answer my questions- 1-Where is the error in my study of entole as related to the Ten Commandments (nomos)? 2- Will you admit that fallen nature and original sin are two completely different things, especially as taught in the Seventh day Adventist church? ----------- There is so much to address here that it is almost dizzying. Why is the Gospel so hard to grasp for these people? Jesus, who is God Almighty, Creator God, our God, took on human form--not man's fallen nature but man's nature before the fall--lived on earth in perfect harmony with the law of God, became a martyr for the remission of the sins of mankind, rose again to eternal life, resumed his stature as God Almighty, and returned to heaven, having paid the price that sin exacts for you and me. He was perfect, so he can now cover us with his perfection--we have none of our own, will never have any perfection of our own, the only thing we deserve is death because the wages of sin is death and we are sinners. All of this is spelled out clearly in the pages of scripture. He did not come to earth to become an example of how a perfect life looks so that we can imitate him. He came to earth to die in our place--the wages of sin is death--so he became sin in our place. The he conquered sin and death, and Satan too, when he clothed himself in our sins. Now we can be undeservedly clothed in his righteousness. He lived a perfect life so that we can, by faith, be clothed in His righteousness. This body of death that you and I are living in just now will one day be replaced with an eternal, immortal body. This body, infected with sin, mortality, will continue to be a sinful body until that instant when mortality puts on immortality. When is that? When Jesus comes again to take his bride home. No one second sooner than that. The only thing that changed at the moment of rebirth was that Jesus has covered us with His perfection. We are still the Dick and Jane that we were before the rebirth except for the fact that we have placed the full weight of our hope of eternity on Jesus, based on his perfection, death, resurrection, and the fact that he is currently at the right hand of the Father, and he is waiting for his enemies (death, sin, and Satan) to be made his footstool. Jesus delivered us from this body of sin and death on the cross, 2000 years ago. But just like having a sentence commuted, we are waiting to be released from that fallen body. Our day of true victory was when we were reborn, and we surrendered to Jesus. Any righteousness we had or have before that time is nothing more than filthy rags. The day when victory will manifest is when Jesus returns to earth to receive his Church. What will outfit us for perfection is our faith, not our deeds. Someone other than me will have to answer the questions about the difference between "entole" and "nomos." Those are Greek words, and I do not know how to read Greek. Please, one of the pastors who posts here, will you please help sdazeal to understand the difference between the two different ways to say "commands." The fallen nature, and original sin are one and the same thing, just two different ways to speak of it. A baby appears to be born perfect, there is no way that the child has sinned prior to being born. The problem is that sin is an inherited trait, and that child will sin. So that child is born wearing the fallen nature, and original sin will be manifest as soon as the child is old enough to lie or covet. By Grade we are save, and not of ourselves, but by the precious blood of Jesus Christ our Saviour Belva | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2005 |
Why is the Gospel so hard for these people to grasp? Because they don't read it and say "Hallelujah, I am saved". They dissect it to make it fit with EGW. Read Hebrews. Read it again. Do you get any message from Paul that he is talking about an event 1800 years in the future? NO. He is telling the good news RIGHT NOW. The same good news that is spreading like wildfire throughout the entire world. These people will debate the IJ and Sanctuary a dozen times in the next 12 months and will not have really communicated with God and studied to discover His will in their lives. The debate will never end. They will never know the joy of being saved in Jesus Christ until they dump this blasphemous doctrine that takes away that certainty that is promised. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 216 Registered: 5-2004 |
Welcome Dt, I enjoyed your comments above and see this is your second post! Glad you are here...and can't wait to get to "know" you better! You're right! The Bible is explicitly clear...including Paul. It's only when you are trying to see through Ellen's glasses, that everything looks so absurd. Like one of those mirrors that makes you look really tall, or short, etc. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 348 Registered: 7-2004 |
Please forgive--I said "By grade we are saved." I meant "by Grace we are saved." My doctor has me taking pain meds and muscle relaxers for my injured back. It's a miracle I can think at all. Belva | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 349 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dt you are so very welcome here. It is absolutely true that as long as SDAs have to filter every text of scripture through "what did Ellen say about that" they will never be able to see the generous nature of the Gospel. She has become the bondswoman that Hebrews spoke about. Until they can throw out the bondswoman they will remain in bondage to all of those false doctrines and will never be able to draw a free breath. I spent way too much time doing that to ever be willing to submit to that mindset again. It only leads to guilt and shame because if you are honest with yourself you know you cannot stop sinning no matter how much you pray or how hard you try. The next conclusion that brings you to is that your name has already come and gone in the IJ, and you are left outside. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1814 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dt, welcome to the forum. I'm looking forward to hearing more about you. Great comments. Colleen | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 |
If the IJ is real, it seems unfair that if I were judged unfit today and doomed foreverafter that I wouldn't get some official notification of that. Then I wouldn't have to try at all. Salvation would be gone forever anyway. That does not seem to be portrayed anywhere in the Bible that I have read. If I am living my life in Christ and have accepted His promises, why would I have to worry about a judgment that could occur at any moment. Do they really think God is just waiting to catch me between good times so He can "catch" me in a sin and doom me forever? Or, if I have been basically good, do I get a free pass for a few minutes, just long enough to get out of the theater? If you have these questions, you are either an SDA or have WAY too much time on your hands. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 208 Registered: 3-2005 |
Welcome Dt to FAF. It looks like you have been following the discussions before you came on. I was just catching up on the "Clearer" thread on R/S, and just realized what Belva has been talking about. All that right wing Traditional SDA group all believe the same way--Jesus took on fallen nature, therefore denying the full Deity of Christ, They believe in Pope Ellen, and that she has the final word for THESE LAST DAYS, despite the clear words quoted above in Heb. 1:1,2, about these last days starting in the 1st century. They have every mark of a cult--Yet they are proud that they would be classified in this way!! They are critical of their own church even talking to Walter Martin, because they would rather keep their cult status! The veil spoken of in 2Cor. 3, is really thick with this group. Stan | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 301 Registered: 2-2002  |
Welcome Dt. Have enjoyed your comments and look forward to hearing more from you! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 350 Registered: 7-2004 |
On Wednesday nights I'm involved in an in-depth study of Romans. As part of my assignment for tonight I'm following through with studying why I should be joyful in affliction. It seems fitting for me right now when my whole body is stiffened because of a muscle pull in my back. Anyway, I chose to study out joy in affliction and have been looking up texts in Romans where Paul makes it clear that we can have joy while being afflicted by sin, pain, illness, death--you name it. This one text lept out at me, and will answer sdazeal with regard to the condition of a redeemed soul inhabiting fallen flesh. Romans 8:22 (NIV) We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ouselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. There it is. We have the Holy Spirit in our inward parts--firstfruits of the promise--yet our bodies remain unredeemed, so our inward self groans with desire for the day when we are adopted whole, as sons of God, and the redemption of our bodies will be the symbol of that event having been completed. Give me Jesus Belva | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 342 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'm out of breath over there myself. The veil of legalism is still covering the Gospel and I'm done running in circles. They talk about the primacy of the law, but none of them actually keep it. They won't answer the simple question "so do you keep the law?" when that is what their entire theology is built on - the ability to keep the Law (giving God the credit, of course, just like the self-righteous Pharisee). They quote verses that supposedly promise lawkeeping as a result of salvation, then won't give the evidence of their own salvation! Then they blast others for not answering their questions. I couldn't even get a specific answer to how I had offended them and baited them, even though I asked for that in good faith in three separate posts. Yet the accusations kept coming... I'm a bit impish at times, but I don't think I was being what they accused me of. At this point, I'm shaking off the dust and moving on with other things that need my attention now. My heart aches for those still blinded but I realize that only the Holy Spirit can remove the veil. I certainly could not. Please pray for them. I get the sense that they really do love God. They just can't see Him for how good He really is because of the shadows in their way. I pray that someone was listening with ears that hear and, for those who weren't, that the cognitive dissonance will be too much to bear sooner than later. Please agree with me on this in prayer. They are our brothers and sisters, and are just like we used to be. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 210 Registered: 3-2005 |
Freeatlast, You did a great job! I really enjoyed following the discussion. Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 351 Registered: 7-2004 |
Free, I want to congratulate you on staying on point with the R/Sers. They did everything they could think of to insult you and make you go away. The reason they did this was that they could not answer you directly, either with bible texts or personal testimony. It seems funny, but it is really sad that a group of people is so convinced that the Lord will bless them with perfection this side of eternity. Belva |
