| Author | Message | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 401 Registered: 7-2004 |
I am emailing a SDA pastor regarding different doctrines. When I said that EGW was "saving face" regarding Jesus' return in 1843/44, she had to come up with the IJ doctrine. He came back with "Ellen White never stated Jesus was returning in 1843?" Now, I know I have read other quotes regarding the shut door theory after 1843 before 1844. I also have seen the quotes where she stated that God's hand was covering their "mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods". Did she just come on board after the first disappointment or are there any direct quotes where she is proclaiming the first erronous return? When did she first start having her "visions"? Before or after that first "disappointment"? How long after the second disappointment did it take to come up with the IJ? I appologize for asking questions that I know have been answered before. I probably have some of my info confused in the dates...all I know for sure is that she was used directly by "another spirit" to deceive with "empty words...to participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness" (Eph. 5:6-13). | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 550 Registered: 10-2004  |
Dd, EGW first started having "visions" when she was a young girl, but the SDAs like to "claim" that she had her "first" "vision" after the second dissapointment (the "Great Disappointment" of October 22, 1844) and that that is when she "became a prophet." As far as I know, she did not have any real "doctrinal" type "visions" until after October 22, 1844 and did not go around teaching people stuff or predicting things in God's name, or writing, or anything like that until after October 22, 1844. She did, however, after 1844 write that the 1843 message was a "saving message" and that those who rejected it were lost and had the "blood of souls" on their hands or something like that, and that the 1843 chart should not be changed!!! Which is amazing that afterwards, she would write that a failed prediction and a false message (even acknowledged to be so by her and the SDAs) was a "saving message" from God, and that those who rejected the false message were LOST!!! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on April 11, 2005) | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 375 Registered: 6-2004 |
You know you're dealing with a false prophet when their prediction fails to come true and then they spiritualize it into meaning something else. How many times did the prophets of the Bible do this? 0! There you have it. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 402 Registered: 7-2004 |
Wow, Jeremy, that really is conviluted! What a wacky woman and religion! So...she said all those shut door things (don't pray for sinners who don't believe like us) AFTER the second failed return of Jesus?! If that is what you said above - it doesn't even make sense! Did she say that it was other people who were tricked or that He tricked her? At what point did she say that God tricked people into believing the prophecy was about Jesus return when it really was about Jesus going into the most Holy place to start checking the books (IJ doctrin)? My understanding of this is that she didn't have her IJ vision until after some man had a vision in a corn field - right? | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 403 Registered: 7-2004 |
How funny that I asked this question today and then it sounds like the same topic is being discussed and deleted on the R/S forum and shared on a thread here on FAF today! I haven't even been to the pastor's site recently! This is all so convulted it really doesn't make logical sense! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 552 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dd, I'll try to answer your questions and explain it the best I can. 
That is correct. She, along with others, taught that instead of Jesus actually coming to earth on October 22, 1844, He had actually gone from the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place, and that the "door of mercy" had been shut and that nobody could be saved after October 22, 1844. She taught this from what they call her "first" "vision" which was supposedly in, I believe, December 1844. By around 1851, they finally gave up this false doctrine, and she quietly quit teaching it. So if you were to believe in Ellen's first vision, you would have to believe that it is absolutely totally impossible for you or anyone else after 1844 to be saved! And then what would be the point of following such a "message"/prophet?!
She wrote that God had "covered" with His hand some of the "mistakes" in the figures/numbers of the 1843 chart (William Miller's chart), so that nobody could see the error until afterwards. She wrote this after the 1844 disappointment. I believe she also wrote after the 1844 disappointment that God had wanted them to be disappointed again on October 22, 1844.
That is correct. Hiram Edson I believe it was, had his cornfield experience shortly after October 22, 1844 and then she had her "first" "vision" (which taught the Holy Place to Most Holy Place move and the Shut Door doctrine), supposedly, sometime around December 1844, I think. There is evidence that EGW actually stole her "first" "vision," though. So she might not have even actually had any type of vision or anything then! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on April 11, 2005) | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 376 Registered: 6-2004 |
Speaking of what Ellen wrote. Remember the post about her racist writings regarding the black race? I'm debating that with an SDA on another forum and he doesn't see anything wrong with her statements and feels I'm the one working with the forces of darkness (as he calls it) when I show what this woman stands for. She can "do, say or write" no wrong in their eyes. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 404 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thank you, Jeremy. The "EGW" section of my SDA collection notebook is getting full with the reliable history and direct quotes that you share. I praise God that He has blessed me through you! | ||
| Yossariana Registered user Username: Yossariana Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2004  |
I couldn't find any egw quote about the second coming of Christ in 1844. But after reading 'The Sanctuary' - Early Writings, it's quite clear that the theory of IJ comes exactly after the GD. The chapter starts like this : "I was shown the grievous disappointment of the people of God that they did not see Jesus at the expected time." EW 250 They knew not why their Saviour did not come; for they could see no evidence that prophetic time had not ended. Said the angel, "Has God's word failed? Has God failed to fulfill His promises? No; He has fulfilled all that He promised. Jesus has risen up and shut the door of the holy place of the heavenly sanctuary and has opened a door into the most holy place and entered in to cleanse the sanctuary. All who wait patiently shall understand the mystery. Man has erred; but there has been no failure on the part of God. All was accomplished that God promised; but man erroneously believed the earth to be the sanctuary to be cleansed at the end of the prophetic periods. It is man's expectation, not the promise of God, that has failed." Then, "I was shown what did take place in heaven at the close of the prophetic periods in 1844. As Jesus ended His ministration in the holy place and closed the door of that apartment, a great darkness settled upon those who had heard and rejected the message of His coming, and they lost sight of Him." EW 251 | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 406 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks for sharing, Yossariana. I find myself flustered when someone stands-up and protects EGW (like the pastor telling me she never predicted that Jesus would return in 1843/44). If she didn't predict it than she certainly used it to put those "dummies" down for believing it! | ||
| Yossariana Registered user Username: Yossariana Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2004 |
Well, I think we will always find people fighting for ideas and beliefs. If you look around, it seems the controversies are pure ideological. But if you question something it means you don't want to take everything for granted and that's what Jesus told us to do. It's very difficult for me, too, when discusing with adventists. And it's because I took their ideology as pure truth and now I have questions. Anyway, you won't find many adventists who will understand what they believe. For example, I haven't met any adventist to explain me about those 3 horns in Daniel who were destroyed by the little horn. Not even one. Many promised me that they will search about it...but still I haven't got an answer. It's the same with those 2300 evenings and mornings. Maybe the pastors know about it, but not so many ordinary members. Regarding EGW, I think the adventists should use more often what she wrote: "I recommend to you, dear reader, the word of God as the rule of your faith and practice." Experience and Views, 13 Almost every adventist site has at least one article about the inspiration of egw. I think it's too much now. It seems like our salvation has something to do with her name. Even if she were (let's supose) inspired, she shouldn't be adored. Romanian Orthodox have a saying: 'We have Mary, you, adventists have Ellen, what's the difference?' Only Jesus! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1771 Registered: 12-2003  |
Great point, Yossariana! The inspiration of Ellen is the real bottom line. Take her away, and the whole structure collapses. It's amazing how many things she said that even many of us who leave continue to see as truth not because we believe her, but because we really don't know they came from her. The ideas permeated everything we learned and became part of our world view. It's a long, slow process to figure out what's Biblical and what's not. Fortunately, the gospel is clear!! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 558 Registered: 10-2004 |
How can people not see a problem with EGW sayng that those who rejected the false prediction that Jesus was coming, were lost?! That is so absolutely amazing. Jeremy | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 379 Registered: 6-2004 |
Yoss....I made a similar statement about EGW being to the SDA's what the pope is to Catholics on another forum. Of course, that didn't fare well with the SDA's. However, how can they deny that when they cling to every word she wrote, even if it's been proven to be false. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 531 Registered: 1-2003 |
Basically what SDA have always asked of their flock was to believe in humans. It started with believing explicitly in Miller and his predictions and those who didn't leave their Baptist, Methodist, etc. congregations and join this sect were told they were lost. Then they switched their faith to Ellen and those who did not pledge alliegience to this human were/are told they are lost. Where is Jesus in all this? In my opinion, Ellen stands sqarely between Jesus and the SDA believer...and they have allowed her to replace the Holy Spirit in their lives. I can't stand it. I know there are sincere people in the SDA church...my in-laws come to mind...the only solace I have is that even a "little bit of Jesus" is enough. They are Believers, after all...but then the words of Paul echo in my mind about the condemnation for preaching "another gospel" and for changing the words of the Bible (I think of Ellen inserting herself into Hebrews 1, when it was totally intended to glorify Christ). I wouldn't want to be her right now. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 193 Registered: 7-2000  |
"they have allowed her [EGW] to replace the Holy Spirit in their lives." YES! That is it exactly. As Jeremy has often pointed out, what can we call that misplaced trust except BLASPHEMY AGAINST GOD? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 562 Registered: 10-2004 |
"Where is Jesus in all this? In my opinion, Ellen stands sqarely between Jesus and the SDA believer..." Exactly. And they always like to tell you, "just look to Jesus"! What if you can't because there is an old, lying, blaspheming woman standing in the way?! (Just so you know, that was actually changed from the way I usually like to state it, to be less offensive!  But seriously, her blasphemous ways do make me angry, and they should--righteous anger!) Jeremy | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 382 Registered: 6-2004 |
You got that right. What makes me crazy is how SDA's try and act like Ellen White has no influence on their beliefs or lifestyle, but try to say this is how the Bible tells them to live. What a crock. Take her phoney writings away and what do you have left? They can't read the Bible alone without one of her books chained along with it for that "special truth". | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 211 Registered: 5-2004 |
Right on! I never could see how dependant I was on pulling her out help me understand what I was reading. Praise God for Jesus!...you SHALL be free indeed! Doesn't stuff like that that just make your heart leap. Like the hero/heroine in my favorite movie growing up. Boy that line would always get me right there. That's what half the Bible does now. Just jumps up and grabs me... I am so thankful that NOW I have the special truth that my God died for me, and I am safe in His hands! As Dwight Nelson used to say (who know, maybe he still does) Man, What a God! | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 98 Registered: 2-2005 |
If anyone is interested, there is an animated movie of the first chapter of Great Controversy at Early SDA, complete with voice-over and on-screen text. I watched only about a minute, but maybe some of you guys can last longer. Greg |
