| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 555 Registered: 10-2004  |
Also notice that he said that "now there is an additional emphasis that is present truth and which must be included in any credible preaching of the gospel"--but in that other sermon he said that the gospel that Billy Graham teaches is a valid gospel! Also, he goes on to say:
He doesn't realize that that part of the IJ (about God being vindicated, etc.) also comes from EGW? Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1768 Registered: 12-2003  |
I'm increasingly aware that the IJ, no matter under what guise it's hidden, not only is confusing and unbiblical, it negates the atonement. The vindication of God theory asserts that Jesus will be exalted and every knee will bow before Him because He has vindicated His character and has been proven worthy, just, and fair. Not! Every knee will bow because He is the Savior who shed his eternal blood of the covenant and opened a way to the Father. They create a large distraction on the surface which hides the fact that underneath, they are blatantly pushing another gospel. Adventists in general are very uncomfortable with Jesus' blood being shed and with Jesus as the sacrifice. Praise God for Jesus' blood! Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 166 Registered: 8-2004 |
I've heard the argument that Paul would preach the gospel 'more fully' if he were here today from many SDAs. I used to think it myself. But HOW could it be preached more fully, when Jesus already came as 'the fullness of the Godhead, bodily'? Jesus came, he gave himself, he gave the Holy Spirit who would continue to lead and comfort us. He was fully God, and fully Man and He fully paid the price for our salvation! Colleen wrote: "Every knee will bow because He is the Savior who shed his eternal blood of the covenant and opened a way to the Father." AMEN! | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 528 Registered: 1-2003 |
They don't know what the Gospel is...they think it is the 3Angels message, health message, and #1 keeping the Sabbath. They have taken something totally simple, so that even a low IQ or child can be saved and made it very complicated so that anyone who falls under their spell will say: "Who then can be saved?" | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 191 Registered: 7-2000  |
"They don't know what the Gospel is. . ." I agree. This is the direct result of the teaching of Ellen G. White. For all of her millions of [stolen] words, she obscured an understanding of the Gospel for millions of people from her time until now. Tell me again how she could POSSIBLY be a true prophet of God! Bob | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 324 Registered: 7-2004 |
Activity at R/S has slowed considerably. Walk and Col are busily trying to convert a Catholic by telling him that the pope is the Beast of Rev. 13. He's a well-read Catholic who is familiar with scripture, and he was able to prove that the beast might just as well have been Nero. He also posted the homily that was read at Pope John Paul's funeral, and that incensed Colporteur. He really is not proud of his Catholic background. I guess he came out of that with much the same sense of disgust that we have come out of Adventism. It is too bad that he renounced Catholicism for Adventism. He really got short-changed there. I also sense that he is loath to make the change to full freedom in Christ by leaving Adventism for another Protestant expression of faith. I think he would consider it makes him look flighty. Okay, that could be a problem, but to me what is most important is digging into scripture to find the real Jesus and then following Him. I've found good and true Christians in nearly every denomination I've encountered. I've also encountered those who are there because their families were there, so it is habitual rather than personal. I was purely SDA for 30 years, dropped out for lack of a decent sermon (every week they were having some campaign or another--Signs of the Times, Liberty, something or the other, and there was no time to get into the word of God), and because I was tired of feeling overwhelmingly guilty. The harder I tried to be perfect, the guiltier I felt. There was no way out of it. I finally married and had a couple of kids, and then I was concerned for their eternal situation so I rejoined the Chruch for a time. However, during the time I had not been attending I had been reading scripture, just to read it, so I already had a foundation in the word. Then, of course, came my moment of truth vis-a-vis IJ, and it was easy to close that door behind me. I've often wondered how Ellen White could live within her own skin if she really knew what kind of havoc she was releasing onto the believers who followed the way she set forth for them. Was she duped, was she a pawn? There are some who would make you believe that she was James' puppet, and would absorb any doctrine that was brought before her by her husband and his cronies. They needed her swooning visions to cement doctrines into place. It really was all one big drama--it was theatre lived without a stage. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 408 Registered: 7-2004 |
Reading the post of the pastor that Jeremy shared above, I had a thought...there is a huge debate in the SDA church of the literal 7 day creation. Many of the historic SDA stand firm (as their salvation is tied to the correct belief!) that it was literally 7, 24-hour days. So here is my thought or question to them... If God is so awesome as to create the world in one weeks time, why is it taking Him so long to scan through those books to see who is naughty or nice? OK...a bit snide? But seriously, their logic is so twisted. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1379 Registered: 3-2004  |
Dd, LOL at what you wrote above. But I agree with you. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 326 Registered: 7-2004 |
Here is the distillation of Adventist thinking when you believe that Jesus came to earth to be your example rather than your Saviour. What follows is a rebuttal made by Colporteur to FreeAtLast's beautifully stated understanding of the true Gospel. ---------- You asked what are we waiting for in terms of character perfection. Nothing. We are not waiting but growing. Be patient. Anything worthwhile takes time. I think you are confusing justification with sanctification. Sanctification is a growing process not a flash in the pan. We are growing just as a kernel of corn grows, the blade the ear, and so on. It does not mature in a moment, a week, or a month. Christ will have a mature harvest when He returns for His people. The people living at this time will not be half grown stalks. Neither will God's people boast character perfection this side of the cross. It is for God to claim what He has done, not for man to boast what man has become. Character perfection is a condition of the heart which produces fruit , fruit that will be evidence in the judgment that God has done with His people what He said He would do. To have a new heart totlally surrendered to God is to have sinful flesh completely under subjection to the divine nature. Christ was our example of what human life is like when the fallen nature is under complete subjection to the Holy Spirit. If we feel Christ had an advantage over us (like some do) then He was not an example for us but only for unfallen angels. Those who continue in sin until Christ returns will prove Satan's point. That is, that Satan is more powerful to bind than Christ is to deliver. Whose claim will "you" prove? Who is your King? ---------- 1) Adventist thinking has justification and sanctification being two separate actions. Their assessment is that you are justified by the blood of Christ up to the point where you accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. The Sanctification takes place when the law is perfectly reflected in your life and that means keeping the law, 10 c's, perfectly. Again, I'm only stating here my Adventist understanding. In actual fact, both terms, Justification and Sanctification, apply to your life starting when you accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. Both actions are the workings of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. All the believer must do is confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, and that he was sent by the Father to be our Saviour. From that point on, the Holy Spirit takes up residence in the heart and life of the believer and that person is sealed by the Spirit forever, saved. Yes, the law is written on the heart and mind of the believer, the law of love, and the outpouring of that person's life is the work of the Holy Spirit. 2) Col said: "To have a new heart totlally surrendered to God is to have sinful flesh completely under subjection to the divine nature." Herein lies the desperation that the honest Adventist experiences. They are willing to have perfection made manifest in their lives, but when they look honestly at their own lives, they are aware of the lust and jealousy that they still have withing their hearts, even when they choose not to speak of it to another soul on earth. Then they begin to effort at lawkeeping, trying to help God clean up their lives. That is inevitably followed with more desperation. I know about that because I spent many lonely hours thinking I was the only one who was experiencing that impasse. My other Adventist friends seemed to be living such pious lives, so certainly they weren't thinking the thoughts I was in my innermost heart. I worked on my prayer life. I memorized scripture, I prayed some more. I ate properly, dressed properly, shunned adornment... nothing really worked. Maybe I was not destined to live in heaven. I must be basic evil. Beyond hope. I praise God that I finally found out that Jesus can and does save me in my desperate condition. Just as I am. The most amazing thing is that once I realized that Jesus is more than capable of effecting my complete salvation, and in fact had done so 2000 years ago, I finally got comfortable in my own skin. I could stop looking at me and focus outward--could become a blessing for someone else, if that was what Jesus needed me to be, and I didn't have to be perfect before he could use me. There is a great deal of truth in what Colporteur has written here, but the expectation that perfection will one day soon be manifest in his life is like a set trap waiting to spring on him during a moment of weakness. That's the saddest part of the SDA belief system. It creates within the believer untold anxiety or pretentiousness. Jesus never meant for his believers to have to worry about those things, or have to end up so desperately lonely even when surrounded by others who were in the same cycle of unattainable expectation. That is the SDA big lie. Christians are perfectly clothed in Jesus' perfection from the moment they make Jesus their Saviour. They have nothing left to prove. They only have the good news to share. Jesus has already secured them against the day of judgment. Give me only Jesus Belva | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 568 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wow, Larry Lyons wrote:
And colporteur replied:
On Jesus Christ the Solid Rock, I stand. All other ground is sinking sand! And in another thread, colporteur wrote:
My King is not a sinful "christ"! colporteur, if you are reading this, sadly you have a different "Christ" than, not just me, but the Bible. Please think about this cultic blasphemy that you've bought into. Jesus Christ is the Sovereign Lord God Almighty--He has not, does not, and cannot ever have a sinful nature! Jeremy | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 100 Registered: 2-2005 |
One of the hallmarks of a cult or cult-like belief is this statement by Colporteur:
First, he places himself in the position of God, presuming to know who and who will not be saved based on who is standing on the "platform of truth" next to him. Second, he actually derives consolation knowing that someone will be eternally lost because they don't agree with him! How is this thinking ANY different than what the Branch Davidians, the followers of Jim Jones, the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, or [insert your favorite cult here] believe? It saddens me that the blood of Jesus is apparantly not enough for these folks who call themselves Christian--they have built a "platform of truth" from which they survey who and who will not be saved, based on who is standing on their man-made platform. Just give me the blood of Jesus, Greg | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 102 Registered: 2-2005 |
More unbelievable statements from RS, this time from Larry Lyons:
This myopic view of Christianity flows from the same mindset as the cultists who believe anyone not on their platform will be lost. The worldwide Christian church is making inroads into corners of the globe where the gospel has not previously been preached, yet for Larry Lyons it all boils down to a fight between Catholics vs. Adventists. Again we see how desperately some within Adventism need the Catholic church to maintain their religious identity. One wonders if today Jesus prayed his prayer of John 17:20-21 "that all of them may be one", individuals like Colporteur and Larry Lyons would be the first to object. Greg | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1795 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good point, Greg. And when did Revelation 14 become the gospel message? (I know--The Great Convtroversy.) It's just so blatantly clear to me NOW how confused I used to be. I guess I always knew there was dissonance, but wow--Revelation 14 is the message we're to preach...! I am a sinner; Jesus died for my sin (became sin for me, even!); He rose from the grave and offers me knew life forever if I accept His death as a substitute for mine. There's a message to preach! Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 327 Registered: 7-2004 |
Two individuals at R/S are discussing their "Sanctuary Message" found in Daniel 8:14. I'll quote that one verse for you from NIV: "He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated." ---------- How right you are. The bottom line in all of this is an attempt to excuse sin and ultimately in the very end, the rejection of the true Bible Sabbath. Isn't it true that the enemy of souls plays off of all error in some way or another leading toward the excusing of sin. Take away the sanctuary message and the judgment and the natural conclusion is that we are saved on profession of faith alone. ---------- What is so sad here is that they come so close to stating the true gospel, then they call it weak, a lie. Notice the derision in the comment that if the 2300 days is not accepted (that is what they mean when they speak of the "sanctuary message"), then people fall into error by believing that they are saved by profession of faith. THAT IS THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL; MANKIND IS SAVED BY FAITH IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, NOT IN SOME INTERPRETATION OF PROPHETIC TIME PERIOD. The original language of that verse speaks of the number of sacrifices that will be missed, so it has to be a literal period of time, and cannot be stretched over the vast period of 2300 years. The only way you get 2300 days is to accept the King James version of the scriptures, and it is a mistranslation of the original Aramaic or Hebrew. It tears me up inside to see the gospel mocked like this. How blind are these people willing to remain. They slide right over the truth and call it error, then condemn the Formers who have opened their eyes to the everlasting gospel and are now holding it to their breasts like a treasured possession. We own salvation because of faith in the blood of Jesus Christ, not some measure of prophetic time. | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 103 Registered: 2-2005 |
A hearty AMEN Belva! In the response to that post by Colporteur, Larry Lyons attempts to again make the fourth commandment the reason people reject the sanctuary/IJ doctrines. This degenerates into a back and forth with Colporteur where they devise a way to trap Christians into stating their belief in the ten commandments, only to turn their lack of Sabbath-keeping against them. This is a clear display of Galatianism.
How true those words resound today, and I'll never tire of hearing them! Greg | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 328 Registered: 7-2004 |
"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!î Amen, Amen, Amen, a thousand Amens. Why complicate such a simple truth. I also agree with Colleen, and what she has stated a couple of times on other threads, God hates sin, and because of that enmity, His wrath was poured out on Jesus in my place. I'm a sinner. All I "deserve" is death, yet I still live and breath, so his love so perfectly displayed in Jesus Christ has covered me, shielded me from the wrath that is justifiably mine. He has given me peace and comfort in its place. All glory and honor are His, forevermore. I'm still waiting for the SDA interpretation of Bible Prophecy to begin to show itself. Yes, we are seeing signs that the end of the age is upon us, but it doesn't look anything like what I was taught so many years ago. People aren't polarizing around the issue of what day to worship on. The polarization has to do with whether or not one should worship the one true God. I'm safe in Jesus' hands, so I'm not worried. "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him." Belva | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 193 Registered: 3-2005 |
Pastor O'Ffill and I are still e mailing each other back and forth every day, so don't forget to keep him and his family in prayer. I am also having a very interesting dialogue with another person named Herb Kersten, who Pastor O referred to me, so that Herb could do a better job of explaining the Sanctuary to me than he could. So, the dialogue at least is continuing. I believe God is using the circumstances surrounding Bucky, and Grandpa, and our invovement on R/S. Stan | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 104 Registered: 2-2005 |
Stan, you are in my prayers. May the Holy Spirit be with you in all your communications with Pastor O'Ffill and Herb Kersten. God is sovereign! Greg | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 329 Registered: 7-2004 |
My prayers are with you as well, Stan. You certainly have more courage than I did after Pastor O wrote me off in his responses to my emails. I pray, since God has placed a burden on your heart for this family, that the precious drops of truth will eat through the layers of lies that have been built up in the dear Pastor's theology. I also have another observation. On R/S they have a thread about the Pope and the Catholic Church call "Wondering After The Beast" or something like that. They, meaning primarily Larry Lyons, Colporteur, and Walk_In_The_Light have been wailing away at some unfortunate Catholic named Darrel. Darrel, by the way, seems to me to be a dear gentle soul. Anyway, the "Fab Three" have been doing everything they can to prove to Darrel that he is receiving the mark of the beast, and have used their math to prove that the Pope's number is 666. Well, just today, along comes another person who has been lurking on the thread and tells the Fab Three that they have convinced him by their rudeness and lack of charm that he wants to check out the Catholic Church, and if he likes it there, he will remain there to worship. He also told them that they have convinced him that he wants nothing to do with looking into SDAism. An old saying that is a word to the wise, "You attract more bees with honey than with vinegar." | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 330 Registered: 7-2004 |
By the way, I am not, in any way, inferring that Pastor O'Ffill is a liar. I'm saying that he is more likely delusional when it comes to EGW and the Sanctuary Message. It seems rather sad to me that an ordained minister of a particular church has such trouble explaining a central doctrine of his own church that he has to send for a consultant to explain that doctrine. |
