| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 233 Registered: 7-2004  |
Dennis, I think the VCG concept certainly had traction in Andreasen's writing as well.
Certainly Andreasen also teaches elements of the need for God to investigate to determine who is among the elect, as he states "how else can it be known who is to be saved." So while Andreasen teaches the VCG as a result of the sinless saints, he does not point to this as the reason for the IJ. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1745 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremy, your point above was very good--it has been going through my mind, also. That's the question about how the IJ will answer OUR questions when we're not even there. Here's how I think people have squished Ellen's teachings together to come up with that idea. Ellen is clear that the "watching universe" will observe the cross and the judgment and conclude that God's character is just and merciful and trustworthy. Elsewhere, she teaches that the Adventist millennium is spent in heaven while Satan is "bound" on an empty earth. All the save will descend to earth with Jesus (actually a "third coming") at the end of the 1,000 years in order to be there for Armageddon when Satan rallies the wicked (who've now been resurrected) and attempt to storm the New Jerusalem. The traditional teaching about that 1,000 years in heaven is that Jesus will show us His reasoning and will answer all our questions about our loved ones who didn't make it. He will show us that they wouldn't have been happy there anyway, and He'll explain everything so our tears will be wiped away. In a "combination move" I've never heard clearly explained, these "moral influence judgment theorists" (my term--not official!) seem to lump the two public displays of the records into one amorphous judgment. It's almost as if they can call the whole shebang the "pre-advent judgment" because it all precedes the final descent (according to them) of the New Jerusalem. The way I see it, the IJ we were taught vindicates God to the universe, and then when the faithful are supposedly caught up to heaven for the millennium, the divine testimony shifts to humans so we, too, can have every question answered and believe we can trust God. John McLarty, current editor of Adventist Today, wrote an article on the IJ in 1998. He ends the article with this sentence: "But most importantly it is a crucial element in God's plan to reveal himself and make himself accountable even to us for how he runs the universe." There it is: the bottom line, at least for liberal Adventists, is that God must be accountable to US in order to be fair. The justice of God is not something modern Adventist theologians discuss. Their focus is His "fairness", His "love", His desire that we serve Him from Knowledge, not from blind faith. I am SO RELIEVED to finally know I have a Sovereign God who rules all eternity, and He does not answer to me. Period. He is God. I am honored to be His child. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1746 Registered: 12-2003 |
BTW, Bob, thanks for looking up that Heppenstall info if you can find it! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 167 Registered: 3-2005 |
The IJ was a frightening doctrine.. If you read the chapter in Great Controversy on it, I used to have nightmares, on when my name would come up, and I knew I would never measure up. I would like to share a quote from GC, pp429,430, and probably Jeremy has shared this one, but it is shocking: "But clearer light came with the investigation of the sanctuary question. They now saw that they were correct in believing that the end of the 2300 days in 1844 marked an important crisis. But while it was true that that door of hope and mercy by which mn had for eighteen hundred years found access to God, was closed, ANOTHER DOOR WAS OPENED, and forgiveness of sins was offered to men throughh the intercession of Christ in the most holy. One part of His ministration had closed, only to give place to another." How do you have ANOTHER DOOR, without having ANOTHER GOSPEL? Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1749 Registered: 12-2003 |
Uh--good question!! Colleen | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 175 Registered: 7-2000  |
Colleen: I found the book, but I am not sure it answers the question of the developmental time frame of Heppenstall's theology of the IJ. This book, "Donctrinal Discussions" was a compiliation of articles that originally appeared in The Ministry magazine from June, 1960 to July, 1961, in answer to Walter Martin's book, "The Truth About Seventh-day Adventism." I haven't compared these articles with the contents of "Questions on Doctrine" but I am pretty sure they ended up, in a combined form, in the latter book. I had a Seminary class from Heppenstall in 1967. It must have been one of the last he taught. At that time, he was still advocating the same interpretation of the IJ that he presents in this book. He was trying to expand the concept way beyond the traditional SDA view, which he called "a limited view." In these articles, he calls the IJ "the justification of God" and "the vindication of God." I think he was making an anguished attempt to equate the SDA doctrine of the IJ with the historical view the Christian Church has held of salvation by faith in the merits of Christ alone. However, he tried to make this agree with EGW's teachings - which he could not do convincingly. Dennis may know the details of what happened to Heppenstall in his retirement, in terms of his relationship with the SDA church. I do not personally know. However, if you go to the "stories" section of this FAF website, and read one of the early testimonies there, titled "Breaking With Generations," by JERALEE A. SMITH, you will find her personal account of her close friendship and conversations with Dr. Heppenstall in his last years. Is Jeralee still in in Southern California and still in contact with FAF? We need more details from her! | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 360 Registered: 4-2000  |
Colleen, Unfortunately, I don't have the approximate dates about the late Dr. Heppenstall's changing views on the investigative judgment heresy. I think my information came from reading Good News Unlimited magazine edited by Dr. Ford and his staff several years ago. My suggestion would be to contact Dr. Desmond Ford for details (www.goodnewsunlimited.org) about Dr. Heppenstall's views on the IJ. If my memory serves me correctly, Dr. Ford received a personal, supporting letter from Dr. Heppenstall shortly after Glacier View in 1980. Dr. Ford would be a most credible source in learning about the late Dr. Heppenstall's views. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 38 Registered: 3-2005 |
This entire conversation on the IJ is just one more reminder of the ways in which SDA's have built a tower of Babel for themselves of pride... we get to judge God, we have the truth, we are the remnant, we have the health message, we live longer, we have $#@#%^& # of members and this many hospitals, and Loma Linda is world renown, etc.... It's a real shock to go to a little country church where there big claim to fame are the missionaries they sponsor. It takes a real heart change to identify with a church that sings to God whole heartedly with maybe a couple bumpkins on stage that would have never made it in my uptown Adventist culture. Jesus modeled what our priorities should be.... others first, love, joy, humility...etc... By their fruits you will know them. Lisa | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1752 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Bob and Dennis! Colleen | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 66 Registered: 11-2004 |
Colleen, Sorry, I've been away from FAF for a while and I am just now reading this thread for the first time. You asked about SDAs who grew up in the '70s and '80s. I fit that category (I graduated from Academy in 1990). Of course, I cannot speak for everyone of my generation. I can, however, tell you that there was absolutely no difference between my experience and the experience described in Belva's post. Like Belva, I was taught that salvation = faith + works, that we are being judged by our works, that any unconfessed sin will be counted against us and that if our good works don't outweight the bad, we'll be in big trouble. For whatever reason, I became fascinated at a young age by the doctrine of the close of probation. It seemed so strange to me that my name could be called and my probation could close and that I would know nothing about it. Like so many of you, I lived in constant fear through much of my life, believing that I would meet the fires of Hell (and grateful that at least I knew that I would be consumed and not burn forever). I was convicted that I had to perfect in order to be saved. Honestly, I actually wrote myself off as simply being the "rocky soil" that God could never reach. In the mid '80s, a local SDA church (not the one I grew up in) became a "celebration church." Dozens of SDAs left that church and moved their membership to my home church. Although my home church was conservative to begin with, suddenly my church became the poster child for SDA extremism. All around the conference, we were known as the historic SDA church. Simultaneous to the great exodus of extremist SDAs into my home church, women stopped wearing pants, potlucks started including only bark and twigs, all social activities ceased to exist, the worship service was transformed into a weekly funeral procession and folks began complimenting or condemning one another based on how holy perfect they perceived one another to be. Folks began to follow John Osborne almost as religiously as they followed Ellen White. There were weekly video presentations in the church basement following potluck during which the members would watch the latest Osborne video condemning the church for its apostacy. Sadly, all of this happened in the height of my teenage years. Even more sad is the fact that I bought all of it hook-line-and-sinker. I am glad in a way that I grew up in an extremely conservative SDA church. It was much easier to see the error once my eyes began to open. In 2002, I learned for the first time that there were many SDA scholars who believed and taught that the IJ was not Scriptural. As a child, my parents, mentors, teachers and elders were very well acquainted with Desmond Ford, Walter Rea and the many others who were challenging the system in the early 1980s. Yet, I had never even heard their names. As I began learning more about what happened in the 1980s, I felt so betrayed and misled. It is with great emotion that I praise God today, knowing full well that God has been wooing me all this time and has NEVER stopped trying to draw me to Himself. Today, I have full assurance of salvation. That is the difference between my life as an SDA and my life as a former. It is possible that others of my generation had a different experience--especially if they grew up in a more evangelical congregation. However, even today, there are many SDA children who are being force fed historic Adventist doctrine, and these precious little ones have no clue of the world that exists outside of Adventism. I know this because I taught in SDA schools for several years. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 367 Registered: 6-2004 |
Potlucks with bark and twigs? Now that's a great line! Probably were not able to dip it into a cheese spread. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 337 Registered: 5-2002 |
"cheese is wholly unfit for food" It humbles me that I can draw an EGW quote out of my feeble mind verbatum, even after 5 years out, but I still have to look up Scriptures to quote them word-for-word. | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 39 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dear TDF, Your testimony moved me deeply. My family moved from our hometown when I was 11 years old because Des Ford came through and many church members left Adventism. My parents were afraid they'd "loose us" so we moved to timbucktoo where historic Adventists were flocking. In this new location, many of the those who "left the cities" and moved to Republic, Malo or Curlew (dots on the map in northern WA near the Canadian boarder).... didn't go to church but belonged to off-shoots, I mean way off... dresses for the women, no milk products, you name it... My parents were thought to be libs because they took us to the SDA church. So what you had were the ìtrue Adventistsî hiding out in the hills, building a commune, living together in an old abandoned school, etcÖ, and ìliberalsî who took their families to the SDA church living in their own homes, working in the community, etcÖ, and in our case, we did a little of both. In both communities, rebellion was bubbling under the surface.... What I mean is that the fruits of legalism, the fruits of living under the old covenant, were as obvious as the rocky earth beneath our feet. Some legalists separated themselves from plant earth, and some attended church and rebelled, but very very few were sold out for Christ. Off the top of my head, I can think of two individuals out of the hundreds that passed through that valley. I always thought my parents were so very balanced because they believed in righteousness by faith, in what Venden preached... but they also strongly believed in EGW. A real quandary because she says a little of both and a lot of everything in-between. Still to this day, they believe that God saves us through his sacrifice and that we are saved by faith, but they say if you are living the life of faith you obey the lawÖ you know the chorus. The veil is still powerfully present. They are far from free. The end times focus is TOXIC and has been a mainstay in my upbringing. Even this week, the death of the pope brought acid to my stomach and increased heart rateÖ not because I still believe the lies, but because the trauma of the childhood indoctrination is part of my physiology. Even at 38!! Back to the people I grew up with at the fringe of societyÖ the pride and judgmentalism is as alive as it's always been. Many that moved out of the cities to be pure ended up with the most amazing kinds of rebellion... Everything from multiple molestations of children to multiple affairs, partner swapping, families falling apart, one after another, some to active homosexual lifestyle after abandoning family, some to prison for one crime or another, some married, yet having one baby after another from different men, some to other addictions. Some have remained in the SDA church, going through the motions, growing more judgmental, hardened and bitter as the years go by. Most just left God altogether. Adventist leaders and EGW have some explaining to do for the ways they have lead so many down the path of death. All cults have some positive aspects about them, but they all lead to a terrible end, and so it is with Adventism. Ted and I ask God almost daily, ìWhy did you choose us God? Why did you let us see the truth, why did you lead us out, and give us a chance to teach our children the truth?î We thank God everyday for the Exodus He's blessed us with, and now we are thanking God for the freedom you and all other FAF's are experiencing. I just want this truth to spread. I want the GC to crash down on itís dishonest head. I want all the many who have accepted a lie to see the truth. I canít wait to see what God will do. Lisa | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1753 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tdf, thank you for you moving story. Thank you also for confirming that the IJ is still being actively taught. I think it may be watered down in my geographcial area--perhaps along much of the west coast--because of the powerful influence of Graham Maxwell. Even though it is watered down and presented as God earning our trust(!), it is still being taught. Whether or not an Adventist knows the full implications of the IJ, it stands between him and security in Jesus. It is at the heart of denigrating Jesus's sacrifice, His finished work in our behalf, and His worthiness to be praised BECAUSE He was obedient unto death, even death on a cross. The IJ is wholly unfit for doctrine--to paraphrase Freeatlast's flawless quote! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1754 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lisa, I just saw your powerful post. You underscore what I have thought for some time now: Adventism, if it is taken at all seriously, leads one either into the vortex of mental illness (let's add to that category sociopathic behavior) or it jettisons one into agnosticism because it is so hopeless and impossible. Those who somehow want to know Jesus in all that confusion eventually do find Him--and He leads them slowly closer and closer to Himself, eventually to plant them (at least in many cases!) outside the boundaries of the church. Richard and I often comment that it is an absolute miracle of God when anyone leaves. The abuse and destructive bahviors you mention, Lisa, are not surprising. They hide even among the "mainstream" Adventists--they're just not always as noticeable. Aventism is truly comprised of doctrines of demons. Praise God for sweeping away the darkness and revealing Himself and His word! Colleen | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 368 Registered: 6-2004 |
Freeatlast...no wonder White never smiled in her photographs...she couldn't say "cheese". | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 67 Registered: 11-2004 |
Pw, you crack me up! Lisa, I can so relate to your sentence: ìWhy did you choose us God? Why did you let us see the truth, why did you lead us out, and give us a chance to teach our children the truth?î My wife and I have asked the same questions. It doesn't seem logical that we would have ever left. Our friends who are non-Adventist had given up any hope that we would (we've had to eat some crow and it actually doesn't taste as bad as we thought it would). Thankfully, we serve a God who isn't confined to only being able to perform things that seem logical. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 369 Registered: 6-2004 |
On the serious side, it's really awful to read how this IJ teaching has enslaved so many people into worrying throughout their life whether or not they are good enough to make it into heaven. That is why I have no problem calling the SDA church a cult, because they use all these scare tactics to keep their people in line. From the IJ theory to breaking a sabbath day to eating unclean foods or wearing a gold chain. The freedom us former SDA expereince is beyond words once we break away from those bonds. It's just too bad those still enslaved in the movement can't understand it. They think we never understood the SDA message, truth is...we did...and found it to be false. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 311 Registered: 7-2004 |
Pw, I love the way you communicate. God has gifted you with clarity of thought. Thank you. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 104 Registered: 1-2003  |
This is great . . . ...no wonder White never smiled in her photographs...she couldn't say "cheese". Richard rtruitt@mac.com |
