| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 357 Registered: 4-2000  |
The "vindication theory" was added to the investigative judgment alibi by the late Edward Heppenstall from Andrews University. In recent years, Adventist scholars have desperately tried to make the IJ more believable to their own people. Interestingly, Dr. Heppenstall later forsook his own theory--like O. R. L Crosier did in the mid-1840s. We need to give both men credit for their honesty in later recognizing their error. I understand that Dr. Heppenstall was a silent supporter of Dr. Ford's views on the investigative judgment heresy. It was indeed a tragedy that so many SDA scholars were merely "silent" supporters of Dr. Desmond Ford. Apparently, after seeing what the SDA hierarchy did to Dr. Ford, they all lost their courage to protest. Sadly, the SDA Church didn't have any Martin Luther's to support Dr. Ford. At least publicly, they all caved in to stay on the payroll. Some, like Dr. Raymond Cottrell, later tried to make up for lost time after being safely retired. Colleen, my wife and I were repeatedly taught in SDA classrooms that we could never know when the investigative judgment would go from the dead to the living. Wow, we thought it possible that perhaps we were already removed from the book of life. Perhaps we were just "doing" church in vain. Without eternal security in Christ, our Christian journey was tentative at best and possibly hopeless. Our lack of security in Jesus brought crippling doubts. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1327 Registered: 3-2004  |
I was taught the same as Belva. The good thing about it is that I studied for the exams and after they were over, I forgot the material. I did not dwell on it. It was not because I did not believe it, it was because it was so complicated and frightening to me. I remember thinking as a kid that there would be a time when we humans would stand alone on this earth before Jesus came. I learned about the "vindication theory" as an adult. It is only as I read here and on the R/S site that I see what the IJ is and also what I have read in the books I bought from LAM. I do not remember worrying about salvation. It was, if you are saved, fine and if not, you will be destroyed completely and will be dead and who will care. I also remember asking God to show me any forgotten sins, so I could get them forgiven. I do not remember what, if anything, was shown to me. It is such a convoluted, twisted, Satanic doctrine and I am so thankful I do not remember it. As I read what others have written about the IJ, bits and pieces come back to me. Thank God, I can now say I am SAVED AND JESUS IS ALL I NEED. Thank God I do not have to know about the future. All I need to know is that God holds the future in His awesome hands and He is still control. Diana | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2005 |
As a youngster I was taught about the IJ, warned about the "time of the end" where we would need to repeat our memorized proof texts when we stood in human courts to explain our violations of Sunday laws, and taught to confess all our sins so that our books would be in order in heaven. Perhaps I'm too intellectual, but I dismissed the most extreme elements, such as needing to be ready to be judged at any moment, as nonsense. And like Diana said, if it ended up that I wasn't saved, I thought I'd be dead and gone so it wasn't a big problem. Growing up on a very busy farm, I didn't have much time for Pathfinders or other church activities. I attended public grade school for all but one awful year in the tiny church school. I must have missed out on some of the IJ lectures :-) I don't seem to recall hearing much about the sinister aspects of the IJ while in academy in the early 80s, nor have I heard much in the past ten years since I've been attending the SDA church again. In the past couple of years it has become clear to me that the Adventist doctrine falls apart without the IJ; Ratzlaff's "Cultic Doctrine" proves just how shaky the Adventist house of cards is. Every day now I revel in the saving grace of Jesus Christ, who became sin for me. To borrow a phrase, Praise God! Cy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 535 Registered: 10-2004  |
The "vindication theory" may be the new emphasis of the IJ, but all that stuff about God being vindicated, etc., totally goes back to Ellen. She taught it herself, including in Great Controversy. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1742 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dennis, do you know when Heppenstall added the "vindication theory" to the IJ, and when he backed away from it? I realize, Jeremy, that you're right about Ellen teaching that God will vindicate Himself in the judgment. Somehow, though, the emphasis in explaining the doctrine (at least in some circles--) has shifted from focusing on whether or not our names have come up and whether or not we will be judged worthy; now the focus is that God goes through the books publicly to allow all his creatures to ask questions and satsify themselves that Satan's "claims" about God are false. It's warped either way you look at it. The doctrine doesn't change; simply the public explanation of it changes. It's still the IJ. Colleen | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 173 Registered: 7-2000  |
Colleen, I have a book published about 40 years ago by the SDA MInisterial Association. I will dig it out. If I recall correctly, it has one or more chapters in it written by Heppenstall, on the subject of the IJ. I will see if it has any date references about his proposed interpretation, and I will let you know. Bob | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 362 Registered: 6-2004 |
I recall this teaching from the SDA, I'm almost positive it's from some EGW book where she says that angels are merely observers of mankind and have to let sin run it's course in order to see that God himself is not deceiving the angels. Anyone recall this theory? It was basically talking about angels needing to see the true nature of God and results of disobedience to him, otherwise they would not know his true character. It's been almsot 20 years since I've been in the SDA, but for some reason I always remembered this. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 518 Registered: 1-2003 |
Yes, and we are on display for the universe (the untainted worlds) who are only allowed to look and not touch us, so that they might see God is just. But if they are not sinful, and think the best of everyone (only a sinner can concieve sin) would they even think of thinking God is unjust? Seems like something a sinful mind would think up to me. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 363 Registered: 6-2004 |
Actually, it sounds like the fantasy novel that C.S. Lewis wrote called The Silent Planet or something close to that title. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 334 Registered: 5-2002 |
What is the clay, that it should question the potter? | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 199 Registered: 5-2004 |
This very notion has been one that I have been more than glad to let go of. In my teens I felt so "comfortable" in the fact that we would be able to see that all God has done was legit. Now, I'm in awe of His justice, and mercy, and can't conceive of "judging" Him or His motives. Which is why I love Job 38-42...just a few snippets  Job 38:3 "Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Job 38:5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? Job 38:6 "On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 40:1 Then the LORD said to Job, Job 40:2 "Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Let him who reproves God answer it." Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD and said, Job 40:4 "Behold, I am insignificant; what can I reply to You? I lay my hand on my mouth. Job 40:5 "Once I have spoken, and I will not answer; Even twice, and I will add nothing more." Job 40:6 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm and said, Job 40:7 "Now gird up your loins like a man; I will ask you, and you instruct Me. Job 40:8 "Will you really annul My judgment? Will you condemn Me that you may be justified? Job 40:9 "Or do you have an arm like God, And can you thunder with a voice like His? Job 40:10 "Adorn yourself with eminence and dignity, And clothe yourself with honor and majesty. Job 40:11 "Pour out the overflowings of your anger, And look on everyone who is proud, and make him low. Job 40:12 "Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him, And tread down the wicked where they stand. Job 40:13 "Hide them in the dust together; Bind them in the hidden place. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 364 Registered: 6-2004 |
freeatlast, you said it. God is not accountable to anyone, so who are we to challenge him? It's bizarre that EGW feels that mankind and angels are above this and actually will pass judgment on God himself. Please. Man will actually judge angels according to the Bible and not God. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 335 Registered: 5-2002 |
Pw, I was just restating Isiah 29:16, "Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"? This "moral influence theory of atonement" is not in harmony with the whole of Scripture. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 537 Registered: 10-2004 |
I also like these verses from Romans 9:
Pw and Pheeki, I just found that quote from EGW last night when I was looking this stuff up, and I had the same thoughts about why would angels need it proved to them that God is good, just, etc.?! Here is the quote from The Desire of Ages:
Colleen and Esther, That has never made sense to me at all. How does the IJ answer all of our "questions," when we aren't even there while the IJ happens, and we DON'T get to look at "the books"???!! According to SDA teaching, we don't have a clue what's going on up there, and neither do the dead, so how does the IJ answer any of our questions?! Jeremy | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 80 Registered: 7-2004 |
I always had the idea that if we made it to heaven we had the privilege of looking over the books to see why others didn't make it. But if we were lost, well tough luck. We didn't deserve that privilege. I had severe anxiety as a child about the close of probation. Probably went to sleep with my mom most nights till I was mid teens. Those sermons about not knowing when your name would come up were terrifying! There was no hope!! My mom always told me that I was still o.k. if I still had a conscience about sin. I think she got that from EGW. So I tried to gauge my life by that. It was exhausting. I finally gave up as a teen and young adult and tried to stuff it all down hoping I might forget some of my sins. My biggest fear was that thing about if you have one unconfessed sin you will not make it to heaven. I would obsess about little white lies, or lies I didn't mean to tell, but then felt stupid about trying to ask forgiveness for those little things. What is the real truth from Jesus about asking forgiveness of sin? Is it necessary to rehash all of your life and make restitution for every little thing? I have never figured that out. Bb | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2004 |
Bb - so, in other words, if you felt guilty and miserable all the time, you were (maybe) going to be saved! I know what you mean. Jesus said to repent. "turn away". His blood is sufficient for all our sins. I think the 'sinner's prayer"' kinda sums it up -I'm a sinner, in need of Your grace! I believe that once the Holy Spirit resides within you - you are really, truly a new creation! If there is a specific sin you need to confess, the HS will reveal that to you. Also, if you need to confess and reconcile with someone, that will be revealed to you to as you honestly ask. It takes a long time out of legalism to really feel free - and to understand that all that guilt and shame doesn't earn you more righteousness! Personally, although there are certainly things I have needed to make restitution for, I find the Lord is more interested in weeding out the patterns of this world, and guides me to truly 'inhabit' that new creation - to BE who Jesus says I already AM - IN HIM. The being always, always comes before the 'doing'. Marcell | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 365 Registered: 6-2004 |
Jeremy, that's the exact quote I recall, even after all these years. Amazing how certain things will never be completely erased from our minds no matter how long it's been or how much exposure we've encountered in the SDA. Bb, we'd never get off our knees if we had to account for each and every sin as it's a constant struggle 24/7. Keep in mind that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...nothing is said about an IJ in the Bible, therefore it's a false teaching. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 366 Registered: 6-2004 |
Jeremy, I just noticed this from EGW's writing posted above. She said Christ said the following: Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; However, it's not Christ who said it but Paul because he starts in verse 17 "So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. Now this is how the NIV quotes verse 18: "They are darkened in their understanding and seperated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts". Nowhere does it say anything about "all that hate me", and it was not quoted by Jesus. What a liar this woman is! | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 160 Registered: 8-2004 |
IIRC EGW did not write down the references when she quoted. Instead her helpers would find the references and insert them for the ease of the readers. Perhaps the helper was trying to find somethign similar? BTW there is a verse that says "all they that hate me love death". It is Proverbs 8:36, and is speaking of wisdom. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 538 Registered: 10-2004 |
It does have the reference for Prov. 8:36 in that quote, after the Ephesians reference. She quoted two verses, and then they gave the references. She apparently thought that the Proverbs text was about/quoting Christ. Jeremy |
