| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 530 Registered: 10-2004  |
Here is the EGW quote I promised in the cut and run thread:
But, as Belva and Colleen pointed out, the Bible says, "For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants." (Hebrews 2:16 NIV.) Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1736 Registered: 12-2003  |
Thanks again, Jeremy. Since I'm working on said article re: the IJ, I'm curious and would like to conduct an informal poll. What did you know/understand about the IJ as an Adventist? What was it? How/why did it work? What was its importance to you? I'd love to read your responses! Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 297 Registered: 7-2004 |
My understanding was that IJ reviewed the lives of everyone who ever lived. Nevermind that an almighty God would know whether a person's deeds/faith had fitted him for heaven upon his death. This review of the records started in October, 1844, and would soon pass to reviewing the living, and when it was finish the Time of Trouble would commence. This was the tricky part, you never knew when your name was going to come up, and when it did, if you were good you would automatically go on being good, but if you were at a movie, or dancing, or wearing lipstick... The time of trouble would be extremely hard, then the Anti Christ would pass a Sunday law and if you didn't do things the way he said he could control everything, where you live, where you bought your groceries--everything. Somehow, once the Sunday law was passed and the AC said you had to be marked in order to buy or sell, then after that you had to live for one whole year with the intercessory work of Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary. Probation would be closed and any sins you committed after that moment in time could condemn you. If you were sealed by God (with the Sabbath) you would be able to be perfect even though Jesus wasn't able to answer your prayers any more. God's people (read SDA's) would be holed up in caves and rocks living off the land (thanks to all their merit badges earned in Pathfinders). Some of them would still be caught and hauled before the Magistrates and would have to be able to support their beliefs without having a bible to refer to, so you had better have as many memory verses as possible memorized. These people will be thrown in jail, or worse, killed for their beliefs. Things will keep getting worse and worse. The plagues will be falling, and the lost will have boils all over them, and their discomfort will only make them more dangerous. And then when it looks like the Anti-Christ is going to be able to root out every hiding Sabbath keeper from their little hidy holes, there will be a small cloud in the sky, looking like it is no more than the size of a man's fist, but it will be surrounded by glory. It will grow in size and intensity, and then all of the sudden the Sabbath keepers will start rising from the ground and will be gathered up into that cloud. All of the believing dead will also be rising from the ground or the sea, or wherever their bodies had come to rest, and they will be rising up to that cloud, too. Meanwhile, Anti-Christ and his minnions will be terrified and will be calling on the rocks and the mountains to cover them and shield them from the brightness of the coming of the Lord Jesus. I guess you can tell that I started learning about IJ when I was in the second or third grade. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 359 Registered: 6-2004 |
I remember how the SDA's put a lot of emphasis on angels....more than Jesus himself! It was as if they were more concerned about pleasing angels than Jesus himself as they were always speaking about the angels of judgment, the angels testimony and angels gathering the elect at the resurrection, angels pouring out God's punishment with the seven bowls of wrath and so on. It's almost as if they were almost worshipping angels. The SDA church I attended actually went into details about if you would actually encounter an angelic being and how to react...really off the wall teachings. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 515 Registered: 1-2003 |
I was taught very similar to Belva. I was told that we cannot know when probation will close but that it could close for us at any time, say we got hit by a car crossing the street...our probation is closed. I used to fret and worry that I would die as a backslider...I went through periods of living the Ellen way where I thought I was pretty righteous (I had confused the kingdom of God with eating and drinking, etc.) and there were times when I had managed to subdue my flesh sufficiently, that I actually thought I was pleasing God...but it never lasted. It was a yo-yo world for me! I was taught that the Holy Spirit would be withdrawn from the earth at some point and all goodness would leave except for the "elect" who are sabbath keepers and sealed by God. Then we would have to flee to the mountains, I used to plan (dream, or daydream) elaborate scenarios of how I would manage to escape. I was told after I had children, by my mother-in-law, that I was going to have to be prepared to lay down the lives of my children for the Sabbath. I knew in my heart I could not do this and I couldn't imagine Jesus asking me to...didn't he stay the hand of Abraham when he was going to kill Isaac? I kept thinking, if God is so powerful, why can't he just make me and my family invisible during the time of trouble...why would I have to watch my children be killed? Yes, I ate fear for breakfast, lunch and dinner. What the IJ really does is make you feel hopeless...and I believe it is responsible for a lot of the addictions of the people I knew...people that look normal and keep you at arms length so you don't find out they aren't perfect SDA...scratch the surface and they are on Prozac, alcohol, ilicit drugs, or use food for comfort. SDAism is destructive if you take it to heart...I believe the ones who manage to stay and actually enjoy being SDA, don't really think about any of it or take it to heart. My nephew-in-law was asked at a family gathering why he didn't go into the ministry...he replied, "I didn't want to go off that deep into the theology." IOW: He might find out the truth and have a moral delimma. My sister-in-law told me that out of their seminary class, only her and her husband and one other couple are still in the ministry...what has happened to all the ministers? My brother has no theology degree but they allowed him to pastor 4 churches all because he totally embraces all the SDA beliefs and started a chruch all by himself...you don't see that kind of dedication going on with seminary graduates (at least I haven't seen evidence of it). My husband doesn't understand why they are letting someone who hasn't even been to undergrad theology classes take 4 churches...I said, "Because their trained ministers are leaving left and right!" Seems like a sad state of affairs. | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2004 |
Belva, you are so funny! Pathfinder merit badges - lol! I was taught pretty much identical beliefs to what Belva describes. We as children played 'catholics' and 'sabbath keepers' instead of cops and robbers. We called it "Time of Trouble". We'd run around in the mountains (we lived in Colorado at the time) with our cousins and hide from each other. apparently this was ok to do on Sabbath - our parents didn't stop us. (I guess we figured out if we called it some sda name it would be ok. ) I lived in fear. I KNEW I would never make it. My dad was a pastor and then a sda teacher, we would read EGW for family 'worship' - even my dad could only read a little at a time! It was one long guilt trip, we could never, never measure up to all egw wrote, and since we were gonna get the big audit in the sky, we would surely be found wanting. And Jesus would abandon us and the whole world to see if we could make it on our own through the time of trouble. The only relief is that we didn't believe in everlasting hell. I just figured I'd burn up for sure. I still struggle with not 'feeling' saved. I guess the scars go pretty deep. Marcell | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 168 Registered: 7-2000  |
When I joined the SDA Church as a 16 year old, I quickly got into being a rigid little legalist. I wanted to be sure I would pass the test of the Investigative Judgment. In those sad days, my favorite EGW quotation - and my personal goal - was found in Fundamentals of Christian Education, page 289: "When we reach the standard that the Lord would have us reach, worldlings will regard Seventh-day Adventists as odd, singular, straitlaced extremists." How thankful I am that even though it took many years, Jesus rescued me and brought me into the freedom and joy of the Gospel! | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 233 Registered: 7-2004  |
What a quote! I don't recall coming across that one before, but it certainly makes sense that there would be such a quote. It seems like the ultra-conservative SDA's use that as a measuring stick for how close you are to being savable--by how "different" you are. Growing up, I always felt so isolated because our family stuck out as total oddballs even among regular SDA's. I guess that meant we had reached the standard that would qualify us to pass the IJ. I remember being unmercifully teased by an SDA co-worker as teens, because we grew up without a TV. That person asked if we lived in a log cabin too, and did we have a radio. Actually, we did have a radio, but it was mostly only allowed to be used by my dad for the news and weather report. The IJ is the reason many SDA's focus so heavily on externals. I remember having to wear dresses all the time because it's a sin for males and females to dress alike. Finally when we moved to the liberal SDA town of Dayton OH, it was permissable (but not the best choice) to wear pants--but, they couldn't have a zipper in the front, because there still had to be a difference in clothing! One day I had a very bright idea. I told my mom that I didn't think there was a lot of difference in men's and women's clothing in the Bible times--they all seemed to wear robes. From that point on, we could wear jeans, hallelujah! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1737 Registered: 12-2003 |
Bob, I'm laughing out loud reading your quote from CE. I'm not laughing because it's so particularly funny but because it so completely summarizes what we were taught should be our goal--and did that goal ever make me into a neurotic, anxious, guilt-driven mess! Belva and Pheeki, you've pretty much described my experience with the IJ also. I remember lying awake at night as a teenager, anxiety-ridden and sleepless, worrying that I had some unconfessed sin--and worrying especially because sometimes I willfully talked about secular subjects on Sabbath, and how could I ever get over my "worldly" thoughts every seventh day? Please keep the descriptions coming. I'm also curious to know if people who grew up in the 70s and 80s (even 90s) had similar experiences. The "myth" I hear in So Cal. is that the younger Adventists aren't being taught the IJ the way WE were taught it. It's no longer much of an issue. I'm inclined not to believe that rumor--although I suspect that in Adventist mecca communities it might be taught with a different emphasis--especially in areas where the "moral influence theory" has made inroads. Somehow it's just cathartic to share these experiences with the only other people in the world who have a clue what we're talking about! This is one heresy that no other sect or cult can relate to. Praise God for revealing Himself and setting us free! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1738 Registered: 12-2003 |
Raven--I just saw your post. What a smart kid you were to point out the robes to your mom! She must have had her own reservations about the logic of the clothing restrictions in order to drop them and allow jeans so quickly when presented with one logical rationale. Galatians 5:1-2--yea! Colleen | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 170 Registered: 7-2000 |
Colleen, your laughter response reminds me of a quote I came across a couple of weeks ago. I don't remember who said it. It was this: "It isn't true unless it makes you laugh. But you don't understand it until it makes you cry." The legalism that we lived in makes us laugh now, but it certainly also caused us to shed many tears. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 533 Registered: 10-2004 |
"When we reach the standard that the Lord would have us reach, worldlings will regard Seventh-day Adventists as odd, singular, straitlaced extremists." Wow, what a quote, Bob! And the world will know we are Christians by our love for one another! (John 13:35) I am realizing more and more how much I was protected from a lot of traditional SDAism growing up. I did not ever really understand the IJ even, I don't think, until I started giving up EGW. Jeremy | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 360 Registered: 6-2004 |
I never really got the whole IJ teaching myself, just went along with it (mainly with a "whatever" attitude). I never questioned my salvation as I didn't fear the IJ theology due to thinking it was pretty lame. However it strikes me funny as one poster on another forum said it's no longer a major issue that's being taught anymore (while another says that her sabbath school teacher has a whole new spin on it). Can you believe that? Goes to show how their doctrines waver throughout the years. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 171 Registered: 7-2000 |
These "modern" younger SDAs don't seem to understand that if the IJ doctrine is gone from the doctrinal table of Adventism, then the SDA Church has absolutely no reason to be in existence! Bob | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2004 |
I lived in Salt Lake for a few years, and had many Mormon friends - many of them would readily admit that there are 'hidden' or 'secret' doctrines in the LDS church. It seems to me that the SDA organization are trying to 'hide' that they are still holding to the heresy of the IJ - like if they ignore that particular bit of lunacy by EGW, maybe they can get people to still accept the rest of it. They refuse to get real about the fact that if the IJ is wrong, EGW is a false prophet and a LIAR and dangerous. You can't just pick out a little common sense health advice and pretend like she's ok. Ack!! if EGW claimed to speak for God and lied -then NONE of her work can be trusted. There isn't some middle ground. It's like a poison hidden in chocolate. the enemy doesn't care how much good stuff he has to wrap the poison in , as long as we'll swallow it. Bob - I think that most 'modern' SDA's think that their purpose is the Sabbath - their 'other' gospel. Marcell | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 172 Registered: 7-2000 |
Marcell, you stated the issues very clearly in your post. They will tolerate any lie, any Biblical distortion, as long as they don't have to give up their blind faith in beloved Ellen! No matter how much SDA's harp on the issue of the Sabbath, their own doctrinal history, of which they are abysmally ignorant, belies their claim that the SDA church exists to proclaim the seventh day Sabbath. Many other groups have been doing that for hundreds of years! Bob | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 361 Registered: 6-2004 |
Basically it's what the Bible calls "itching ears hearing only what they want to hear" . | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 294 Registered: 3-2004  |
My understanding of the IJ was pretty much that of Belva. When I look backwards now, I believe that I had a huge amount of cognitive dissonance but I was into so much denial that I was totally unaware of it. For instance, why would it take God of the universe so long to review all those records? After all, if man could invent a high-speed computer, what was up with God? Another issue I suppressed was the close of probation and standing alone without a mediator because of Hebrews 13:5-6 For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." So we may boldly say: "The LORD is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me?" My personality reacted differently, though. I didnít have the fear and the anxiety that many of you are describing. I think I truly loved the Lord (as much as I knew how) but my compulsion came out in service. Looking back after these few years, I realize that I was codependent upon a systemónot a person but the entire church system. I was always very busy with church related activities which I didnít consider work at all. While I certainly never openly thought my behavior was earning me brownie points with God, those thoughts were probably buried in there somewhere. It was kind of like God owed me something because Iíve done all this for him. Itís hard to explain because we all do acts of service because of our love for God, but I realize now that mine were warped and out of balance. The church was my life. Thatís where my friends were; we worked in ASI approved ministries etc. I was never one as SDA to share the Lord with people one-on-one. Looking back I now think there were a couple of reasons: 1) this cognitive dissonance and realizing something somewhere was wrong. 2) what was the big deal if someone didnít want to know the Lord because theyíd just go into non-existence. Now with my new-found joy, I have no trouble at all speaking of my Savior. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1740 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great posts, Marcell and Bob. And Pw, "itching ears" does describe the whole phenomenon. I'm discovering how much Maxwell's "bloodless atonement"ói.e. the cross was for the purpose of showing God's just character to the universe, not for literally providing a God-required blood atonement for sinóhas influenced the modern spin on the IJ. It seems that to many modern Adventists, the judgment is all about God vindicating Himself to His creatures because they have the right to question Him. Apparently both the cross and the judgment are being seen more and more as the self-justification of a benign God who would never be barbaric enough to demand blood or turn his wrath on evil people. All this begins to explain why the 1985 edition of the Adventist Hymnal has omitted verses and words from hymns about the blood and the atonement that were included in the previous edition. This trend seems to owe quite a debt to Graham Maxwell's teaching over the decades. Praise God for His word--and for truth! Colleen | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bob, you're right about them not knowing their history. The Seventh Day Baptists existed long before the SDAs. ------ The ONLY unique thing the SDAs have is EGW and all the doctrinal distinctives that come from her. If the IJ can only be proven through her writings and she is proven to be a false prophet, then the SDA church has NOTHING to support their claim as the Remnent. Their whole reason for being would be gone! Growing up, I learned about the IJ from babyhood on, basically as Belvalew stated it. I remember being so scared of going to sleep! I thought the close of probation would come while I was sleeping and I wouldn't get the chance to ask forgiveness for all those sins I might have forgotten, or I would die before morning and not have a chance to reach perfection. I understood the main part of the IJ - the reviewing of the books, the close of probation, etc. But those dates were so confusing! I used to think "why does it have to be so hard to understand?". I wished I had never heard of it so I couldn't be held accountable! Eventually, as I went through Grade School, Academy, College, I just gave up trying to be perfect or being afraid (although unknowingly, those things colored most of the other areas of my life). I couldn't understand any of the proof-texts supporting all those dates. It just didn't make sense. I finally dismissed it all as not important and tried to live a "good enough" life and hoped that Jesus could see my attempts and my heart and cover the rest for me. It was the very beginning of understanding Grace - but from a very distorted view. I just could not see a loving God not understanding my human efforts even if they fell short of perfection. He would know that I was really working on it! I finally had some peace knowing that I would PROBABLY be saved! It wasn't until I discovered that EGW was such a liar (false prophet) and left the SDA Church that I began to understand the significance of the IJ to the SDAs. It explained the focus on rules, diet, dress, music, etc., and the constant judgementalism. It explained the need to hide all those "sins" and look "perfect", to never admit wrong, to know all "truth", to never know for sure that one is saved. It is so hard being "different", "odd, singular, straitlaced extremists"! Now that I know the real Truth about Salvation, I am so happy, so free. It is SO SIMPLE! All along I knew this was the way it should be! Why did it take me so long to learn? I AM SAVED! Now that I know the whole foundation of the SDA Church will crumble without the IJ, I want to let everyone know about it's being a lie. I want everyone to know how central it is to all of the SDA doctrines. If someone cannot really prove it without EGW, I would think they would have to have second thoughts about the SDAs. But then again, all I have to do is look at how many SDAs refuse to look at the obvious to know how strong that indoctrination is! There is such fear and legalism because of the IJ doctrine. "For God hath not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind" 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV Thank-you Jesus for taking my fear and replacing it with a sound mind that knows Love, Joy and Peace because of an assurance of Salvation! -tisha |
