| Author | Message | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 38 Registered: 2-2005 |
Belva, Jeremy, and Stan -- You must feel a little like a soldier returning home from a war. What an exhausting battle this must have been for all of you. It's evident that the Lord used each of you in an extraordinary way over on the R/S site. Posts from people like Diane should give you comfort in knowing that you stimulated many people to ask questions that they may not have asked had this 2-month exchange not taken place. I'm sorry that it ended in the manner that it did, though. By reading the thread here, no one taking an honest look at it could find anyone here guilty of collusion. You all have my respect and thanks. Well done, guys. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1318 Registered: 3-2004  |
Oh My Goodness, I have not been banned from the R/S site. I just went over there and was able to log on. Pray for me, a lot, as I am not as well versed in the Bible as all of you. As Flyinglady I said , on the R/S site, that I left the SDAs because EGW plagiarized, had other people write for her, than said she was inspired by God. I also checked my e-mail and did not receive any thing from Pastor O'Ffill. Pray for me, pray for me, pray for me. God, Give me the words to say on the R/S web site that You want me to say. I cannot do it by myself. Thank you God, You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 526 Registered: 10-2004  |
Thanks Heretic, I appreciate those words of yours. I wonder what Mr. O'Ffill means by us trying to "deceive"? In what way?? I never said I wasn't trying to show their beliefs to be unBiblical. It was obvious to all that we were. We wanted them to see the truth. How is that "deceit"?? I still cannot believe what he wrote about "private interpretation," etc.!! He really does not think that the Holy Spirit is THE Author of Scripture and should be our Interpreter?! Jeremy | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 287 Registered: 7-2004 |
Diana, my e-mail address is belvalew@pacbell.net. If you want to talk to me about anything, and I'm not saying I'm an expert, but I will be there for you if you need me. The Lord works in mysterious ways. He has decided to keep our gentlest soul able to impress over there. It is a statement of his trust in you. I'm still able to read, and will probably grumble about things I read from time to time. I also need to catch up the laundry. Belva | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1319 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks Belva, I can only pray that God use me and give me the words to say. And I was a person that said I would not go onto an SDA website. Just goes to show how much I know. God has other plans. Well God, here I am, so use me as you see fit and give me the words you want me to say. I cannot do it by myself. I love you God. You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 836 Registered: 7-2003  |
For what it's worth, he is the one deleting information he doesn't like...what is not deceptive about that? It looks like you've made no response at all, let alone a valid one. I admire the efforts of those of you who have undertaken that task. You have gotten a true picture of adventist teaching with the selective editing they've chosen. It's not so different than everything else they do with the truth. Congratulations for managing to continue to stand for truth and not quitting until forced out. Whatever doors open, God will use. Lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways acknowledge him and HE will direct your paths.... no need for EGW... God himself is our guide! | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2000 |
Belva, Jeremy and Stan, God's plan is never thwarted. I can only imagine how Paul, the Apostle, felt while contending with the Jews. Romans 9 1. I speak the truth in ChristñI am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spiritñ 2. I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, Take heart, you have done a great job. I know many people appreciate the clarity and courage you demonstrated over there the last couple months. The spiritual warfare is great. The frustration Paul felt was great as you are realizing. They do not understand the value and gratitude we have for Lord Jesus Christ." I can't believe these words from the Pastor, "Inasmuch as the authors of Scripture are not here to explain what they really meant to say, it is all about who we chose to accept as our interpreters. I'll put my money on Mrs.. White before D. Ford or D Ratslaff or even R Cottrell. Belva, don't forget, it is all about who will be your interpreter(s). You may say, Pastor I am my own interpreter. Ok, so be it, but Scripture should not be of any private interpretation." None one should question a person's salvation, but I wonder about the depth of the pastor's understanding of the Holy Spirit. When we are born again, the Holy Spirit comes and takes residence in our hearts. He is our resident teacher. Spiritual things are spiritually discern. What deceit are they talking about?! Adventist projection, perhaps? We lived the modus operandi of SDAs-"we have the truth, whatever we say is right, do not question. You don't understand? your problem." We know they READ this forum. We were not hiding anything we spoke openly about everything. We will continue to speak out. ... Welcome, R/S visitors/lurkers. There is no contention here. People disagree amicably and respectfully... We expected the pastor to act the way he did. Again, God's plans are NEVER thwarted, He accomplishes His will always. He is Sovereign. bmorgan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 151 Registered: 3-2005 |
I would just encourage everyone to keep Pastor O'Ffill in our prayers in a very special way tonight. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 152 Registered: 3-2005 |
Also thanks Heretic, Nene, and Melissa for your kind words of support. Diana, we are all praying for you, and your kind spirit has been evident. Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 288 Registered: 7-2004 |
As I promised, here are the texts that Pastor O'Ffill gave as biblical proof of IJ. What I will do is quote the entire text, and afterward I may give my thoughts on that text. As always, I encourage all of you to correct me if I seem to be going too far to the left or right. All quotes will be from the NIV. Hebrews 8:1-5: The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man. Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain. But the ministry Jesus as received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. ----- ...Immediately we see that Jesus, our High Priest, is already sitting at the right hand of majesty. The fact that Jesus is represented as already sitting at the right hand of majesty says he has completed his atonement work. The rest of the text begins with the explanation that Jesus was not of the Levitical priestly line, but that his right to serve as our High Priest is because he is mediating a superior covenant, and he has a superior right to officiate. Hebrews 4:14-16: Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. ----- ...This is an explanation of who the New Covenant High Priest is and gives us confidence that we may place the full weight of our faith in Him. Hebrews 9:11-28: When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the glood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died, it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep. In the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heaenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifes than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. ----- ...Here again we have Paul (please bear with me, I don't want to continually be referring to "The author of the Hebrew letter, for the sake of brevity, let me say Paul wrote it) explaining the superiority of Jesus' ministrations of a superior covenant. The only statement here that comes close to the SDA beliefs regarding salvation and redemption is the last sentence where it says that Jesus will come again, not as a sacrifice, but to bring salvation to those waiting for him. Hebrews 10:19-22: Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart to full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. ----- ...This is a thrilling call by Paul to make the people recognize how far superior the ministry of Jesus is as compared to the Levitical ministry. Christ has opened up the curtain and allowed believers actual access to the presence of God, something that was never available under the old covenant. The last sentence mentions the ritual by which the High Priest was set apart for his work as mediator for the people, only Paul's recommendation says that ordinary people who are living the new covenant can view themselves as being set apart. Hebrews 2:16,17 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendents. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. ----- ...It was the Isrealites--decendants of Jacob, who received the law at Sinai, but this text seems to be a reminder of the Abrahamic covenant. Anyway, anyone can see that Paul is making clear that Jesus took on humanity in order to save humanity, not angels. Daniel 7:9-27 While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them, and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully. As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. (The other beasts were allowed to live for a period of time.) In my vision at night I looked and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. ----- ...These texts immediately followed the description of the leopard with four wings on its back, and four heads, and this beast was given authority to rule. History has proven that the leopard of Daniel's vision represented Greece, and the fours are the four generals that inherited Alexanders kingdom after his untimely death. Then there was the description of a "terrible and frightening and very powerful beast that devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left--the ten horn beast. History has the next world power to be Rome, horns are powers, so there are 10 powerful references and from among them comes another that can speak and see. I'm sure we have all attended our fair share of Revelation seminars so we know what we are to think these horns represent, and of course the seeing/speaking horn is supposed to represent the papacy. I'm not going to comment on this imagery other than what I've already recited. The imagery of Jesus approaching the Ancient of Days was used by EGW to say that in 1844, Jesus came to the Father once again to intercede for fallen mankind. Daniel 8:13,14 Then I heard a holy one speaking and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled--the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?" He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated." ----- For context I'm going to backtrack and quote Daniel 8:5-12: "As I was thinking about this ...a ram with one horn that was charging around in the direction of all four winds...suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between his eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. He came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at him in great rage. I saw him attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering his two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against him, the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him, and none could rescue the ram from his power. The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven. Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. It grew until it reached the host of the heavens and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. It set itself up to be as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low. Because of the rebellion, the host of the saints, and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground." ----- ...When Daniel was given this vision he was in service to King Belshazzar, who had inherited his throne from Nebuchadnezzar. The two beasts portrayed in Daniels vision represented the nations who would take over prominence from Babylon--The ram was Medio-Persia, and the Goat was representative of Alexander the Great. Remember the leopard with four heads and four wings. Same power. Alexander dies of a strange fever, has no offspring to inherit, so the power passes to his four generals who divide up the kingdom. The horn that grows out of one of those horns "toward the beautiful land" is the one we are most concerned with. The Beautiful Land is Isreal. That is where Daniel's heart is and where he would most like to be. Home is always beautiful to the exile. History has proven that out of the Selucid portion of Alexander's Greece came one Antiochus Epiphanes who governed Isreal for a period of time. See this site for further information on the man: http://latter-rain.com/Israel/antep.htm There is also a brief mention in the Gospels of this event starting at John 10:22: "There came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonade. The jews gathered around him, say, 'How long will you keep us in suspense: If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' "Jesus answered, 'I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice, I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one. I recited this scrap of verse to show that Jesus participated in the celebration of a winter feast day. If you look at the Set times of the Lord, there were no winter feasts in that list. This particular feast, the Feast of Dedication, is none other than Hannukah, and it celebrates the overthrow of Antiochus by the Maccabees. After he had so befouled and dessicrated the temple the priests had to cleanse and rededicate the temple and all of the instruments in it. This dedication period lasts for a full eight days, they only had enough properly prepared oil for one day, however; that small amount of oil lasted for the entire eight day period. History has the reign of Antiochus at less than four years. 2300 evenings and mornings, when divided in two for one evening and one morning sacrifice per day, is 1150 days. Divide that number with 360 (the number of days in the annual Jewish calendar) and you get 3.19. Given that he couldn't possibly have set up his abomination the day he took power but would have done so shortly after he had subdued the Jewish people, the time period of 3.2 years during which time the priests were forbidden to carry out their tasks and the dessicration of the temple was going on, there is a strong possibility that Daniel's vision was pointing at this event. Most Christians see this prophecy as having a two-fold aspect to it in that this event is probably fore-shadowing the behavior and attitude of the king who will come that Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:15. I'm not saying that this is an absolute, but the vision was about evenings and mornings, or the sacrifices, and not about a number of days as the KJV said that it was, and thus could not have been one of the year-for-a-day references. Daniel 9:24-27 "Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most Holy. Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven sevens and sixty-two sevens. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two sevens, the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood. War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven. In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will st up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." ----- ...70x7=490. 7x7=49. 62x7=434. That adds up to 483. 483 years until the Anointed One, starting with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Precisely 483 years after the start of the rebuilding of Jerusalem Jesus died on a lonely cross outside of that same city. There are a lot of Christians that see a disconnect between the 483 years and the final week of the 70 weeks. The standard SDA explanation is that Jesus was crucified in the middle of the 70th week, thus putting an end to sacrifice and offering. History will tell you that the morning that Jesus rose from the dead the priests were dealing with the torn curtain, but they were continuing to offer sacrifices just as they had done for hundreds of years. For you and me the need for those sacrifices had disappeared and been perfectly fulfilled in the perfect Lamb of God, but that didn't mean that it was recognized as such by the Jewish priesthood. "The Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing." Jesus, the perfect, anointed lamb, died, or was cut off, and as far as the priesthood was concerned that was it. Nothing. "The people of the ruler who will come" (in Daniel's day the ruler who will come was Rome) "will destroy the city and the sanctuary" (which Rome did in AD70). "The end will come like a flood." The carnage to the Jews at that time can only be compared to the devestating loss of Jewish lives in the time of Hitler. "War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed." Who can argue with that. Mankind has been continually trying to exterminate every other race but their own since almost forever. There have been more wars and famines, even in our own lifetimes, than we can count. We just take it for granted. "He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven. In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." Like I said, the SDA see this mid-week cessation of sacrifice and offering to be the end to such activities that the one true sacrifice, Jesus the Christ's death on Calvary, would have imposed on the whole sacrificial system. Please look at the character of this particular "He." This "He" is the one who will set up an abomination of desolation on the wing of the temple. Hardly jives with all of the things that Jesus did while ministering here on earth, nor does it seem very much like the activities of a Heavenly King. I leave you to make your own decisions on that one. I also see no support for overlaying the 2300 evenings & mornings and the 70 weeks prophecies one on top of the other. They represent two separate events. Numbers 14:34 "For forty years--one year for each of the forty days you explored the land--you will suffer for your sins and know what it is like to have me against you." ----- ...This is an obvious "year-for-a-day" proof-text. Ezekiel 4:6 "After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year. ----- ...Again, a "year-for-a-day" proof-text. Leviticus 16 The Lord spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron who died when they approached the Lord. The Lord said to Moses, "Tell your brother Aaron not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die, because I appear in the cloud over the atonement cover. This is how Aaron is to enter the sanctuary area: with a young bull for a sin offereing and a ram for a burnt offering. He is to put on the sacred linen tunic, with linen undergarments next to his body; he is to tie the linen sash around him and put on the linen turban. These are sacred garments; so he must bathe himself with water before he puts them on. From the Isrealite community he is to take two male goats for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. Aaron is to offer the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household. Then he is to take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. He is to cast lots for the two goats--one lot for the Lord and the other for the scapegoat. Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the Lord and sacrifice it for a sin offering. But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord to be used for making atonement by sending it into the desert as a scapegoat. Aaron shall bring the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household and he is to slaughter the bull for his own sin offering. He is to take a censer full of burning coals from the altar before the Lord and two handfuls of finely ground fragrant incense and take them behind the curtain. He is to put the incense on the fire before the Lord, and the smoke of the incense will conceal the atonement cover above the Testimony, so that he will not die. He is to take some of the bull's blood and with his finger sprinkle it on the front of the atonement cover, then he shall sprinkle some of it with his finger seven times before the atonement cover. He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull's blood. He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Isrealites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the Tent of Meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. No one is to be in the Tent of Meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he comes out, having made atonement for himself, his household and the whole community of Isreal. Then he shall come out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it. He shall take some of the bull's blood and some of the goat's blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Isrealites. When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Isrealites--all their sins--and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert. Then Aaron is to go into the Tent of Meeting and take off the linen garments he put on before he entered the Most Holy Place, and he is to leave them there. He shall bathe himself with water in a holy place and put on his regular garments. Then he shall come out and sacrifice the burnt offering for himself and the burnt offering for the people, to make atonement for himself and for the people. He shall also burn the fat of the sin offering on the altar. The man who releases the goat as a scapegoat must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp. The bull and the goat for the sin offerings, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement, must be taken outside the camp; their hides, flesh and offal are to be burned up. The man who burns them must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterwards he may come into the camp. This is to be a lasting ordinance for you. On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny youselves and not do any work--whether native-born or an alien living among you--because on this day atonement will be made for you to cleanse you. Then before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins. It is a sabbath of rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance. The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest is to make atonement. He is to put on the sacred linen garments and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, for the Tent of Meeting and the altar, and for the priests and all the people of the community. This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sons of the Isrealites." And it was done, as the Lord commanded Moses. ----- ...This is the annual service that foreshadowed the sacrifice of Jesus. Revelation 14:6,7 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who lie on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." ----- ...In the few verses preceeding this quotation there is a description of the Lamb, standing on Mt. Zion, and with him are the 144,000 who have his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women (referring to the woman of Babylon?) for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths and they are blameless. This is the first angel's message, and he is making it clear that God is control of the earth, it is his right to have control because he is the creator of the earth and all that is in it. Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ----- ...This judging of the dead is mentioned after the Devil has spent 1,000 years in the pit. As near as I can tell, the Devil has not yet been banished to the pit. He's way too active amongst us now. Revelation 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. ----- ...This statement is the end of the 3rd angel's message. His message was a warning against false worship--worship of anyone but the Living God, Jesus Christ. This is the angel that will mark the faithful. Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." ----- These are the final words in all of the scriptures. In my bible they are printed in red, which means they are the words of Jesus Christ himself. I cannot add a single thing to that. If these texts have embedded within them the teachings about Investigative Judgement, then I'm just too thick of skull to take that information in. Then again, I remember how things had to be twisted and turned, and then especially blessed by Ellen White for me to comprehend even as an SDA. Now all that stuff is just like so many Hail Marys--lots of mumbling, but the prayer is aimed somewhere other than at Jesus. Richard and Colleen, this is a horrendously long post and an almost useless waste of disk space. I won't be hurt if you have to move it somewhere else after a brief time. Feel free to edit it down to a manageable size, too. May we all study to show ourselves approved. I did this because I promised I would, not to impress Jesus with my scholarship. Belva | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 153 Registered: 3-2005 |
Belva, I would say what you posted above is the best possible use of disk space. They are reading what we post. I did send a detailed e-mail last night to Pastor O'Ffill, explaining why I responded the way I did yesterday afternoon, and sharing my personal story with him, in that Bucky and I are both grandsons of SDA missionaries. Then I shared my Dad's story, and how difficult it was for my Dad when I announced I was leaving the SDA church. I shared how happy my Dad is today that I shared with him the same findings we presented on his website. The reply I got was the same form letter that is printed on page 2 of "where do we go from here", where he says basically the book of Hebrews is not the final word, and that Belva called the IJ evil, and then he closed the thread. I will reply again later, but I am not surprised by his response, as this is what you see as an initial reaction when your long held belief system is challenged. Again, let's continue to pray for his eyes to be opened. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1730 Registered: 12-2003  |
Belva, thank you for sharing your study. One thing you mentioned really caught my attention because just yesterday I read an article by Graham Maxwell making the point that "the judgment" is about vindicating God not just to humans but to all other created beings. He quoted Ellen to support his thesis that God is assuring the angels and others beings that might be out there that they will be forever safe from sin. He actually makes this statement: "Christ did not die for sinful men alone. He shed His blood for the sinless angels, too! For they, too, needed the faith-confirming message of the cross." He also quotes Ellen saying, "The plan of redemption had a yet broader and deeper purpose than the salvation of man. It was not for this alone that Christ came to the earth...but it was to vindicate the character of God before the universe." (PP 68,69) Yet Hebrews 2:16-17, which you quoted above, clearly states that "It is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants." It's all so subtle, confusing, quasi-logical--and WRONG. Amazing, Stan--the book of Hebrews is not the final word. That sort of statement can only come from someone who does not believe in the Bible's inerrancy--someone who believes Ellen was inspired the same way the Bible writers were inspired. Praise Jesus for revealing God to us, for shedding His blood for us, for conquering death, and for giving us His word and Spirit. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 154 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, I can't believe the Maxwell quotes. That is the new liberal gospel of SDA, and it is entirely false. Maxwell's protege is Dr Dan Smith, pastor of La Sierra College church, who just wrote a book propagating the same doctrines of demons, this may be the new face of the SDA church. Wake-up, all you lurkers from R/S, because you really need to know about where your church is headed. Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 290 Registered: 7-2004 |
I invite you all to read what is being said on a new thread begun by Pastor O'Ffill last evening. It is his posting regarding the death of Pope John Paul: http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=581 It has devolved into a discussion of the importance of Gospel vs. Prophecy. | ||
| Jjustinn Registered user Username: Jjustinn Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2005 |
About what Pastor O'Ffill said concerning Biblical intepreters and personal interpretations. Aren't all humans interpretations in one way shape or form personal? In Ellen White's day people must have looked at her writing's as personal. Of course she openly claimed to be show by God so that may put it on a different level. But still, even if God did tell her those things why wouldn't He tell any other "normal" person? Should we have such little faith in God that we won't trust Him to reveal His thoughts to us? Or should we only trust that He talked to one other person and therefore, we should go to them first? I know many of you have mentioned it before, but if we are to trust other humans as our interpreters is the Holy Spirit reduced to the good angel on one shoulder? Or does the Holy Spirit pick and choose who to work with? Stuff to think about when you brush your teeth tonight. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 332 Registered: 5-2002 |
I believe this is the main heresy with the doctrine that "you must have the written law (read: 10 commandments) or else anarchy and 'moral relativism' will be the rule". It's a lack of trusting God (the Holy Spirit, specifically) to reveal the truth of the Scriptures that HE wrote! Who is a better interpreter of a text than the One who wrote it? | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 445 Registered: 6-2002 |
Belva; I am always amused when Adventists use the two citations for day = year. Numbers 14:34 Ezekiel 4:6 Look a little closer: Numbers says that for 40 real days in the past, the prophetic period is determined to be 40 years. That is: past days become future years. Ezekiel says that for 390 real years in the past, the prophetic period is determined to be 390 days. That is: past years become future days. So should Christ have remained in the tomb 3 YEARS based on the 3 real days that Jonah was in the whale or should it have been about 12 MINUTES? Fortunately for us, the Bible interprets itself. Each time a prophecy wants us to change the time value, the passage explicitly says what to do. Similarly as when, in the fourth commandment, God told the Israelites to keep the Sabbath holy, He told them exactly how: DO NO WORK. (Not have a worship service, that happens in Leviticus when God describes the feast days.) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 156 Registered: 3-2005 |
On the Ray Cottrell thread, over on R/S, Colporteur is razzing his comrades about why they needed to come to FAF to figure out what our motives were. He is bragging about this with his "I told you so spirit" "you should have listened to me" I don't know how to link it, but it is revealing. Remember, what he compared us to? | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 291 Registered: 7-2004 |
Here's the link for the whole Ray Cottrell thread. http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=580 | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 527 Registered: 10-2004 |
Belva, one minor correction regarding Revalation 14:12.  Maybe SDAs like to put that verse as part of the 3rd angel's message, but the NASB and NIV have it as John's comment, after the quote from the third angel. So verse 12 is not necessarily part of the third angel's message. Belva, I don't understand why Mr. O'Ffill keeps accusing you of calling the IJ an "evil"--you weren't actually calling the IJ an "evil" but were calling their deception about it and their treatment of people, "evil," in that email of yours, right?? But, hey, the IJ is evil, of course. It's very blasphemous and satanic, as I said on the O'Ffill forum even! Colleen, that quote from Maxwell sounds like he doesn't even believe in the vicarious, substitutionary atonement of Jesus on the cross. He just calls it, "the faith-confirming message of the cross." It sounds like he believes the liberal SDA gospel--that the Cross was not to pay the penalty for our sins and that it has no real efficacy for us. Ellen herself states what Maxwell says, that Christ's death was for the angels, too!! I will find the quotes and post them later. Jeremy |
