| Author | Message | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 282 Registered: 7-2004 |
Bmorgan, thank you for your confidence with me, and I am, prayerfully, working my way through the list of texts that Pastor O gave as support for IJ. So far I am not swayed. All of the Hebrews texts support the notion that Jesus' sacrifice was a "once for all time" offering, and that there is no reference to the fact that, having already sat down at the right hand of majesty in the time of Paul, the probable author of Hebrews, that Jesus would have to get up again at a later date and go back into the Holy of Holies to offer the blood of sacrifice one more time. I also agree that the 'line upon line' reference got me giggling when I read it this morning. It was akin to the the delight I felt when Pastor O opened himself up to questions about IJ. We are getting rapid-fire opportunities to deal with all of the SDA sacred cows at once. Dear Jesus, you have placed in our hands an awesome responsibility to be instrumental in revealing the false premises of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. We are humbled that you would lay this responsibility in our hands, so I am asking you to work through us, place your words and thoughts in our hearts and hands. Allow us the means to lovingly, yet firmly speak out and to expose the misleading doctrines for what they really are. Bathe us, Lord, in your love and insight. Only you know how many souls are witnesses to this battle as it plays out on the pages of R/S, and we wish only to act as your instruments to speak words of encouragement to so many who have been held in the tyranny of misinformation for so long. We have prayed for this day, Lord, so now we ask that you "gird up our loins" for the battle that is sure to ensue. The enemy is strong, but you have already defeated him at the cross, so for this we give you all the glory and all the honor. We are your humble servants Lord. Make the clay of our lives into the instruments you need us to be. Amen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 283 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear FAFers. The obligation is now all on you. I will continue to work out my response to all the texts Pastor O gave, but will post it here. I've been banned from his forum. I can only suppose I've been banned because I had the gaul to ask the unaskable question. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 144 Registered: 3-2005 |
Belva, A hearty Amen to your prayer above, and I am sure there are a lot of us praying for you as you make your case with the Pastor. Nene, that link to Ray Cottrell's article is on www.ellenwhite.org, but Bob posted the exact link to the article yesterday, on this thread. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 519 Registered: 10-2004  |
Belva, I think he might have banned you because you told him that if he didn't want you to post anymore, you would cooperate.  Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on April 04, 2005) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 520 Registered: 10-2004 |
Esther, I thought about posting the context of that Isaiah passage when I saw Mr. O'Ffill's post. I just posted it over there now. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 521 Registered: 10-2004 |
Well, I have now been banned. Stan, Diana, have you guys been banned now also? Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 145 Registered: 3-2005 |
Belva, Why did he ban you? Did he give a reason? You were always kind and respectful to him. I came close yesterday to getting booted when I kept asking him about Dr Ray Cottrell, even though he was eulogized by the Adventist Review. He still deleted it and warned me. It shows what a cultic mentality exists over there when you can't even mention a true hero of SDA, and they still will censor it. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 146 Registered: 3-2005 |
Oh well, I just got booted now, and I am not at home to check e- mail, to see if he gave an explanation, but I think the IJ was too hot too handle for him, and when he was challenged with specific texts such as Heb 10:10-13, he would not give an answer. I am very thankful the Lord gave us the opportunity for as long as He did to be a light to what I consider a lot of darkness, over there, but at the same time it was thrilling to see the positive response from many current SDA's. This was such an eye-opening experience, as I am 20 years out of SDA, and I left this whole thing alone for many years believing that SDAs were just another strange group within Christendom. I know that this group does not represent all SDAs, but I am astounded that this type of cultic belief still is around today, because it looked like it was going by the wayside when I left SDA. This was a spiritually enriching experience for me, and I just praise the Lord that we could participate. Great Job everyone, only in Eternity will we see the seeds God planted. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 147 Registered: 3-2005 |
Not only did I get banned, I can't even get into the site to see what others are posting. IT IS A COMPLETE LOCKOUT! I can't figure out why he won't let us read the site. Let us continue to hold up Pastor O'Ffill and all others over there in prayer, that the filters and veil(2Cor.3) will be removed. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 522 Registered: 10-2004 |
I think the final straw was about an hour ago, after Vicki quoted Belva's post above and Richard O'Ffill saw this thread here and posted the following conclusion:
Jeremy | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2005 |
It looks like the unpardonable sin has been committed and, thus, the liquidation of the infiltrators has begun. The camel's back is broken under the crushing weight of the Investigative Judgement. Just goes to show how indefensible this doctrine really is when scrutinized through the lens of actual Scripture. Sad, sad, sad. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 148 Registered: 3-2005 |
Yes, I just found another computer at work, and yes, it was just after Vicki posted that message, that we all got banned at once. Well Belva, they quoted that heartfelt prayer of yours on their website, then Pastor accused us of being deceptive. I guess why does he call it deception, when we all know that this is out there for everyone to read. It would be collusion if we had these conversations on a private access site which we did not. We were all pouring out our hearts, as we tried to present what we honestly believe. Sorry Pastor O'Ffill, this is not deception or collusion, and I suggest all of you over there on R/S, come over and examine more closely what we are saying, and try to understand more the deception the SDA church has propagated on the world. You, Pastor, would not even allow your members to read what the late, great saint of God, (who was eulogized that way in the Adventist Review) said in his paper,"Sanctuary Doctrine--Asset or Liability". You want to read about collusion and deception, Pastor, just read what Dr Raymond Cottrell documents, as someone who was inside that corrupt denomination, about how for about150 years, the coverup, over Ellen White, and 1844. I am sorry for the angry tone of this post, but pastor, we had absolutely no intent to deceive, or collude, but we can document fully the long years of deception that your church has fostered. Pastor, if you do read this, many of us are still praying for you and Bucky, and all your family, as well as your extended family over there on your web site, we are just praying that you will examine the evidence we presented over the last 2 months, and I want to publicly thank you again for the opportunity you gave us. Thanks, Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 524 Registered: 10-2004 |
Right after that post by Mr. O'Ffill (before I had seen his post) I posted the context of his reference to the passage in Isaiah 28, and he immediately banned me and then deleted that post. Stan, walk_in_the_light did check out that Cottrell document, and he started a thread about it here: http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=580 Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 149 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, that is interesting, as Pastor O deleted 3 separate posts yesterday when I tried hard to point out what honest members of his own church have seen the problems. I checked out your link, and it is very enlightening to read what they are saying, and of course Walk and Col, are trashing this former missionary and editor of the SDA Bible Commentary. As usual, thank you for being such a great resource for all of us, and Good job again on R/S. Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 232 Registered: 7-2004  |
If any of you start going through debate withdrawls, come join us on CARM. It has been relatively quiet there the last few weeks. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 284 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, we were banned because the good Pastor detected that we had deceitful motive. Truthfully, and you all know this from things I've said in the past, my motive is that I wanted a studied SDA to show me clearly that the "special truths" can be substantiated from scripture. We all have our answer. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 150 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ric, No withdrawals, but I will take a break. This experience has also been exhausting, but part of that is the spiritual battle that this type of debate produces. I found out that while having these discussions, I needed to spend more time with the Lord. I find myself listening to more gospel sermons on the radio, and listening to more Praise and Worship songs, than I usually do when I'm not involved with this type of debate. However, for those who are called to do this, it is a very important. Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 285 Registered: 7-2004 |
This is the first communication I received from Pastor O ----- Belva, For the record, those who were banned were not banned because of the Investigative Judgment but because of what some of us perceived was an intent to manipulate and deceive. ----- My response to him was: -------- Pastor O'Ffill, Deceit was the last thing on my mind. I am deeply offended because you would suspect such a thing of me. I honestly told you why I asked the questions I asked, told you of the awful experience I have had re: IJ, and you are now just another Adventist minister why has refused to answer my questions. I am currently searching through all of the texts that you gave Diane (not me--and I asked the question). When I studied the whole issue out ten years ago I spent days in prayer and tears because I want my faith to be based on honesty and openness. I just think if a particular tenant of your faith is viewed as "the central pillar" it should be clear, and teachable. Your refusal to do so has just been another weak link in the chain of my dealings with Adventist "special truths." I trust you will look at it again, because this side of eternity we will all have the ability to rethink our approaches to things. On the other side we won't. I'm grateful that Jesus loves me as much as he does. Each day I find I am growing closer to him as I walk this earth. I did not leave the SDA fold because someone snubbed me, or because of broken relationships. I left because I could no longer hang the weight of my faith on certain special "truths" like IJ. I have never lied to you. My only ulterior motive in asking the questions I asked of you was to get clear answers. I guess getting banned is my clear answer. ------- He wrote again: --------- Belva, I read your posts on FA. --------- My next response was: ----------- Yes, so? My friends at FAF are aware of the troubles I've had with IJ, they also know from years of communicating with me that I am still open to have someone teach me about it From The Bible. I went through 12+ years at SDA schools and was taught about IJ during all that time, and not once was it taught without the Adventist fables about Hiram Edson in the cornfield, and how he didn't pass the word on so God took the vision from him and gave it to Ellen. It was such a grand and dramatic story that for years that was sufficient for me. The day I tried to impress a co-worker with the "beauty" of the fact that God was double-checking his list before he came back for all of us is when I ran into the blank wall. I had a SDA marked bible, so I had all the SDA notes in the margins and everything. I urged her to read along with me, and the problem of the vision of the evenings and the mornings became clear for me while we were reading together. I realized that I couldn't tell her about Adventist fables and folklore and have that be enough for her to accept a doctrine. I went to my pastor and got pretty much the answer you gave on the website. I then started a private search, based on scripture alone. Have you ever had that much courage about that doctrine. Remember, Ellen referred to it as the central pillar of all Adventist theology. Again, I was honest with you. Yes, I asked a question then had to leave for the day so I asked my friends to "hold your feet to the flame." I'm that in earnest for an answer. You do not realize how much of a trauma it was for me to learn that because of the SDA's desire to keep Ellen White central in their theology, they have been willing to keep this doctrine in their lexicon, even though many honest and good pastors have come to the conclusion that IJ cannot be scripturally substantiated. Good men all, and when they came to their crises of conscious, they were asked to leave the denominations and had their credentials removed. How much longer will this evil continue? ----------- I stand by my exchange. I have done nothing at R/S that I am ashamed of. We can only pray that this turn of events is going to play into God's hands. We have no idea how many people are silently following the drama that our posts have stirred up. I really meant what I said when I pointed out that we can make decisions this side of eternity, not on the other. We are making decisions that are going to have far-reaching consequence. If my motive was deceitful, it didn't feel like it. Did I have a sense of glee when the opportunity to ask about IJ came up--you bet I did. I have a lot of hot switches involving that one doctrine, so why wouldn't I feel that way? One last prayer for R/S -- Precious Jesus, We have run the course you set for us, and it will take a lot of editing to totally eradicate our influence or the questions we have raised. If what we have been doing there was at your urging, and it did feel like it, we now lay our work in your hands to make of it what you need from it. Our words, and posts, and sincere emotional drive is now the clay for your masterly hands to fashion into just the right tool to help you complete the work for your people who are involved in Adventism. These past few weeks have been exciting and trying. Help is fill the void we now have with the next work you have waiting for each of us, and thank you for the confidence you have placed in us. Again, we are the branches. We are praying for much fruit for your sake. May your name, dear precious Jesus, be ever praised forevermore. Amen. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 286 Registered: 7-2004 |
I know, I am obsessing, and I promise to stop after this. I've received another email from Pastor O'Ffill and it says this: ----- Belva, I am sure that you are aware that those who give us eternal torment and the immortality of the soul get it from the scripture alone, and I would assume that they are honest men and women. Inasmuch as the authors of Scripture are not here to explain what they really meant to say, it is all about who we chose to accept as our interpreters. I'll put my money on Mrs.. White before D. Ford or D Ratslaff or even R Cottrell. Belva, don't forget, it is all about who will be your interpreter(s). You may say, Pastor I am my own interpreter. Ok, so be it, but Scripture should not be of any private interpretation. You have chosen to cast your lot with those who have left the church. I have cast mine with those who have chosen to stay. I am sad that you have chosen to call the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment an evil. We shall see. The future will speak for itself. ----- I'll take my spiritual advisors over his any day. Sola Scriptura Jesus only! Belva | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 525 Registered: 10-2004 |
If that is not blaspheming the Holy Spirit, it is very close!!! Wow!! He really wrote that?!?! The Author (singular) is here to explain it!!! I guess he really does not believe that the Bible is the WORD of GOD!! Still shocked, Jeremy |
