| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 137 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Nene, Yes,, it is exciting. But her is an exciting update! When Pastor sent me that very last message, where he seemed discouraged, I e mailed him back, thanking him for allowing us on, and apologizing for any possible offense, I have caused. I told him not to be discouraged, that we serve a gracious Lord, and that when all of this is allowed to be played out in God's sovereignty, he may be surprised, at how much good may come. Then I told him to pray for me, and I will pray for him. He answered back beautifully, "Thank you Stan" Almost like he was relieved. Let us pray for Pastor O right now, as a battle is raging in his spirit. We should try to be as gracious as possible in our posting, and don't make the mistake of mentioning Ray Cottrell as I did earlier, as that touched right at the heart of the whole doctrine. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1305 Registered: 3-2004  |
Did he answer her Question?? I think not. He does not sound like he is comfortable with what is happening at his web site. The ethical issue I see is the misuse of the Bible and the outright blasphemy of some of the SDA writers. He says it "has not been edifying", but to whom? They will have to go to their Bibles instead of EGW now and that to me is edifying, but then I see things differently. So lets continue praying for the folks on R/S. Only God can reach them, but we can plan the seed and that is what God would have us do. God, give us the wisdom to post what you want us to post on R/S. Thank you for that wisdom. You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1306 Registered: 3-2004 |
Who is Ray Cottrell?? Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1307 Registered: 3-2004 |
Here is Pastor O'Ffill's answer to Diane. I have copied each of the texts down to see what they say in context. If I have any questions I will ask the pastor. Diana "Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary Return to Top There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12) " Diane, I encourage you to read the testimonies of those who have stayed faithful to the church and what it stands for. You will see that those who have left the church for whatever reason have a no more positive testimony than those who have stayed. I cannot understand how being free from the fourth commandment has so greatly enhanced the experience of those who have left. I cannot understand why the concept of the Investigative Judgment would be the reason some would give for leaving the church. But then, I don't need to know. The Apostle Paul expresses my feelings, I know in whom I have believed and as a Seventh-day Adventist am persuaded that he is able and will keep that which I have committed to him against that day. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 138 Registered: 3-2005 |
Diana, I just posted on the pastor's newest thread "Where do we go from here?", a response thanking him for allowing us to express ourselves. This definitely looks like a possible end to us being on. I think it would be great if we all post gracious messages on that thread, showing our Christian love, and concern, and encouraging the pastor. Raymond Cottrell was the editor of the SDA Bible Commentary, and struggled all of his life with reconciling the IJ with the Bible. Just before he died, he wrote a paper "Sanctuary doctrine--Liability or Asset", where he shows how dishonest the SDA church has been in dealing with this issue. You can download that paper off of www.ellenwhite.org, and read what he wrote. Pastor O immediately deleted my post, even though I pointed out to him, that the Adventist Review eulogized him as being a great saint of God. These people are paranoid, if you can't even talk about an SDA like him who remained loyal all his life. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 518 Registered: 10-2004  |
"The Apostle Paul expresses my feelings, I know in whom I have believed and as a Seventh-day Adventist am persuaded that he is able and will keep that which I have committed to him against that day." What is that, the "Richard O'Ffill Translation"???!! What blasphemous adding to the Word of God!! I'm sorry, Paul did NOT say that! It also makes it sound like only as long as he is an SDA is God able to keep him! Wow. Jeremy | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 163 Registered: 7-2000  |
Here is another link to the Cottrell article. Please be aware that the introductory comments, before the article itself, were written by SDAs. http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/AssetOrLiability.html Bob | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1308 Registered: 3-2004 |
Heretic, I am seeing it is more than the EGW filters/glasses. It is Satan. He has a hold of them through EGW and does not want to let them go. But as you said, God holds the laser and will do the cutting with it. I am sure of God's steady hand and He will cut what needs to be cut. So, we continue to pray for them and for those on the other websites. We pray for the formers who post there and for the SDAs also. God is calling his sheep. His sheep hear his voice and they will respond. Thank you God for the internet. Without it, I would probably still be a very unhappy SDA. You are so awesome in how you work. Diana | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 229 Registered: 7-2004  |
One faulty foundation of the IJ house is the teaching that Satan accused God of having a law that can not be kept. This accusation can not be shown or demonstrated from Scripture, it requires EGW. Much of the remainder of the IJ doctrine (as was as SDA Christology) is based on this one false premise. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 279 Registered: 7-2004 |
My dear FAF brothers and sisters, I have not yet been able to read the posts at R/S but I can already tell by what you have all said that things have not gone smoothly for Pastor O. I really didn't want to make him uncomfortable. I have been trying for years to get someone to explain IJ scripturally, and have not been able to gt that accomplished. Of course I'm not the only one who has been there. Should I go explain to Pastor O that if I can't trust that doctrine, particular since EGW referred to it as "the central pillar of the SDA faith" then I have to face the fact that perhaps EGW was not as inspired as she is professed to be, and I have to look carefully at EGW and all the other "special" doctrines of the SDA church. That is, after all, my experience and so, for me, it is a valid statement. Thank you for taking over from me. I knew I was stirring up a hornet's nest when I left this morning, and I'm sorry that I have not been here to assist. The wedding was beautiful, and I hope the best for the couple as they embark on their SDA way. I'm going to go read my way through what has occurred in my absence. God bless you all. Belva | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1311 Registered: 3-2004 |
Belva, I suspect that if you write what you said above he will delete it from the web site and you will not get an answer. Plus all the others will jump on you. You might try sending him a private email from the R/S web site. I do not know what that will accomplish either. He did answer Diane's query, to a certain degree. I just do not understand it. It sounds like a bunch of double talk to me. I do not know if it is my mind or if it is just not understandable. God's Gospel is so understandable that even a child can understand it. That is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1314 Registered: 3-2004 |
I just got back from the R/S website. SDAs have asked Pastor O to explain the IJ, so we did not have to do a thing. One made comments about the texts from Hebrews and Jesus being in heaven, but that had nothing to do with the IJ. This was from an SDA. So, God took care or that for us. He explained more to the SDAs then he did to Stan and to your request. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 139 Registered: 3-2005 |
Diana, That was a such an inspirational message you posted on the "Where do we go .." thread. That prayer right in the middle of the other posts says it all. Thanks, Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1316 Registered: 3-2004 |
Stan, Thanks for reminding me are guests on that website and the pastor has let us continue to post there, so I am glad I have told him thank you. If you have noticed, where FAF people post the website gets lots of traffic. Where FAF does not post, there is very little discussion. I kind of have the feeling the pastor let us post and was hoping the SDAs would say something to make us change our minds about the SDA church and go back to it. It is just a thought and feeling and may not be valid. We will continue to pray for the SDAs there and the FAF people who post over there. God is still in charge and His will, will be done. He is so patient and so awesome. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 142 Registered: 3-2005 |
If you read that message that he posted on that newest thread, you get the sense that he is a troubled man, and is grieving over his grandson leaving the SDA church. As he said, he has given his life to the church. Pastor O has been in my thoughts and prayers all day today. God can work miracles. If he did it for my dad, he can do it for Pastor O. We will never know what influence his grandson will have on him, but, just maybe something one of us said will resonate and God will remove the veil(2Cor.3), and his eyes will be opened. Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 281 Registered: 7-2004 |
I hope you will all understand. I went over to read and ended up restating my question. I did explain to Pastor O about my past experience and my sense of abandonment by my very own pastor, and then to have Pastor O tell me that I already knew how to support the doctrine that was my "last straw" was another "last straw." I told him that if he would prefer that I stop posting there he has but to ask. I still want good responses, and not some namby-pamby twisting of scripture, especially Hebrews. I printed out the Joe Crews papers that were referenced and will be going through them with my highlighter. I can already smell the fact that I'm not going to be able to agree with them because one has already said that Hebrews is a difficult book to understand. Uh-uh. Hebrews was probably written by Paul, and Paul knows how to be clear. I know, we can never say for sure who wrote it, but come on, He was the greatest orator of his day. He had a bone to pick with Peter and the Jews, and I'm sure he put pen to paper and explained the plan of salvation from this side of the cross so they could see how Jesus fulfilled every one of the OT types. Anyway, I promised Pastor that I had been sincere, and I was. I've done a lot of reading in scripture since my run-in with IJ left me with egg on my face. I thanked him for his patience, for allowing me to post on his website, but I want the bible truth about doctrines and nothing less. I've been lied to enough, how about you? | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2000 |
Uggggggghhhhhhhh!?? If this is not giving me the sickening feeling in the stomach, I wonder what is. Belva, I know you can answer this one. I think others want to have a look in also. bmorgan Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:32 am Post subject: Belva, I am not a KJV enthusiast, but with the proliferation of versions there are some where the translator's personal bias begins to leak through. The time could easily come in which there were great divergences in versions to the extent of not being able to prove what we believe is truth. I didn't mean to say that you knew everything that you needed to know about the IJ but that the church had expressed itself and that I knew of no better way to do it. I still feel that though Jesus' work for us was complete after the resurrection, his work in us was not complete and in fact is not complete until this mortal puts on imortality and then only when the fires of hell are out and all things are become new and the former things are pasted away. Perhaps 'finished work' is where we are not talking about the same thing with other Christians. The problem of sin didn't begin in the garden of Eden, but in heaven, therefore the solution for the sin problem must be completed on a universal level not just here on earth or in my heart or yours. This is the Great Controversy theme that separates us from the evangelicals. The book of Hebews is not a stand alone narrative of the work of Christ. We must also include the books of Daniel and Revelation to get the finished picture. (For that matter, no book of the Bible is all in one. The Scritpure is clear that it is line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.). My concept of the meaning of the Investigative Judgment is what I have just expressed. Richard O'Ffil | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2000 |
Stan will you please post the link here.TruthSeeker asked for it on the R/S site. I think the pastor deleted it from his site, Not before perhaps walk did get it though. R. Cottrell's article, The Sanctuary Doctrine, Asset or Liability. Walk couldn't, his response to TruthSeeker:_ "I didnt save the link information because I rejected the claims of its author, I see no good purpose in passing the link information so people will not be unnecessarily confounded by it. It would be a conflict of interest as they say. I am sure if you do your own internet search you will have no problems finding it." Thanks Stan. Nene. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 193 Registered: 5-2004 |
Ohhh... I'm not able to post on that site. But it'd be great for one of you to post in response to O'Ffil's "The Scritpure is clear that it is line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little." Isaiah 28:11-13 Indeed, He will speak to this people through stammering lips and a foreign tongue, He who said to them, "Here is rest, give rest to the weary,"And, "Here is repose," but they would not listen. So the word of the LORD to them will be, "Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there,"That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive." It seems he inadvertantly quote a reference of the law??? In fact, read the whole chapter. I love this passage about the old and the "covenant with death" and then God's promise of the cornerstone. Bummer. Context, context, context. Man that was a hard lesson to learn when I was there. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 143 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bmorgan, Please clarify which link you mean for Truthseeker. Thanks, Stan |
