| Author | Message | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2004 |
My wife and I, over the last several nights been reading outloud George's Classic Christianity. There are so many issues that seem to be interrelated (the nature of Christ, work of Jesus as a mediator, sanctification and justification, perfection at the end of time). I am curious as to you guys feelings about what the Bible says about our eternal security. Once we are saved, does a sin take us out of salvation? Do we have to be reviewing our lives to seek out "unconfessed sin as our friend Ellen seems to indicate? For those who recommend this book, it is clarifying and thought process altering. | ||
| Foreverscout Registered user Username: Foreverscout Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2005 |
Christ's blood covers all. When God the Father looks at us in judgement he only sees us as white and pure - washed in the blood of Jesus. How do we get there? The only thing we need to do is to confess: our sinful condition, and our need for God and His plan for our salvation. And then we fully accept the gift of Christ Jesus as our attonement for ALL our sins, and make him Lord and Savior over all our life. When you belong to God, you will find that the Holy Spirit will prompt you in finding, confessing and giving up those sins. The Holy Spirit was given to us as a helper. Even though you fully belong to God, don't be suprised that Satan and his demons will constantly whisper in your ear, "are you truly saved? are you sure?" Satan is out to disable you. In fact you will find that if you become more evangalistic, Satan's attacks will step up. Satan can not afford for you to take any souls from him. So when you hear those doubts, examine them and ask where they come from. If they are from Satan, speak to him, be gone in the name of My Savior Jesus Christ. God is always there when we ask for His help in all things. God's Love on You, Foreverscout | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1264 Registered: 3-2004  |
Goldenbear, Read Romans 7:14-24. In these verses Paul is saying he does what he does not want to do and fails to do the good he wants to do. V 24 says "Miserable man that I am, who will rescue me from this body doomed to death? Thanks be to God because of Jesus Christ our Lord! so that with my mind I serve God's law, but with my human nature I serve the principle of sin. Then go on to read Rom 8: We are saved when we accept Christ and even though we do things that are not good and are sins, v. 26 tells us the "Spirit joins in to help us in our WEAKNESS".. I have to remember this with my eating disorder. That eating disorder is one of my weaknesses. Hope this helps. Once we are God's He will not let go of us. Diana | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 112 Registered: 6-2001 |
About that eternal security, I can say emphatically WE CANNOT LOSE OUR SALVATION!! This is a good thing thing for me because I lose stuff. I lose keys, my lipstick, paperwork, my cell phone. But once I notice this thing is gone I go earnestly looking for it. Just because its lost doesn't mean I don't care about it, or I don't want it any more. It means I was having "one of those days." Now if I were to run that important piece of paper through the shredder ON PURPOSE it would be more than lost, it would be deliberately destroyed. No coming back. And the Bible is pretty clear on that too, you don't get saved and unsaved like turning a light on and off. From Hebrews 6:4-6 (NLT) "For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened--those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come--and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame." I think we have all had times when we have felt unsaved. But our salvation was still there, just hidden under a stack of other stuff, and until we figure out how to remove those things (ie sins) and do it, we will continue to feel that way. To throw away your salvation would be a drastic decision. It would be like a kid divorcing his parents. A kid did do this recently, after his father was convicted of murdering his mother. But why would anyone want to do this to the best most perfect father you could ever imagine? Thoughtfully, Hannah | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1744 Registered: 11-2002 |
Goldenbear, The answer is No we do not go in and out of being saved. The Pslamist says to live with a prayful heart. As such, if any of us were to meet our earthly end right now our salvation is sure. Always remember you were saved on Good Friday in the year 33 A.D. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 93 Registered: 3-2005 |
Read John 5:24, We can take comfort in the very words of Jesus, "He who believes my word HAS ETERNAL LIFE, or we have crossed from death to life. By definition, if we could lose it, it could not be eternal. It is impossible for God to lie. The late Dr Walter Martin would always say, "There are no abortions in the kingdom of God". Stan | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 380 Registered: 7-2004 |
Great text, Stan...the word that stands out is HAS - it is present tense. We have already started our eternity! GIVE ME JESUS! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 488 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hannah, I must disagree strongly with the notion that we are able to "destroy" our eternal life. It would not be eternal, then! Even if I "divorced" my father, he would still be my father, because I was conceived/born of him. Once we've been born of God and are children of God (John 1:12-13), nothing can make us not children of God! Jesus says, "Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever." (John 8:35 NIV.) Also, the Bible says that we have been "adopted" as children of God. That was the most secure position ever--under Roman law, adoption was permanent, you could never "divorce" your adopted child. Finally, the Bible says that we are "bondservants" of Jesus. GUESS WHAT?!  The bondservant made a permanent decision to serve his master. LISTEN to this. A bondservant could NEVER quit being the servant of his master. Once he made his decision it was final. He could never walk away. He was a servant forever. That is what has happened with us--we are bondservants of Jesus forever. Nothing, Romans 8 says, nothing in the future, no created thing, nothing in the universe anywhere it says ("neither height nor depth"), that includes you, can separate you from the love of God which is IN CHRIST Jesus your LORD. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on March 26, 2005) | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 113 Registered: 6-2001 |
Well, what do you think of that verse in Hebrews then, Jeremy? (I'm sure it's nothing new to you). I did believe in eternal security for a long time, but I have modified my belief slightly because of that verse. Non-argumentatively, Hannah | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 114 Registered: 6-2001 |
The other reason why I'm not 100% on eternal security is the idea of free will. Can God "force" people to be saved if they really don't want to be? And back to your bondservant analogy, if the bondservant was truly unhappy, he could escape and live on the run for the rest of his life. I doubt he was chained to his bed at night. Still non-argumentatively, Hannah | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 823 Registered: 7-2003  |
There are several verses that seem to indicate that we must keep on keeping on, not just get saved and not think about it. As with other things in scripture, there does seem to be a small tension with 99% being eternally secure, but 1% saying ... it's still your choice. I believe that as long as I want to be saved, sins and all, I will be saved. But I do think one can make a conscious decision to leave God. It's not "destroyed" in that you can't come back and mend the relationship, but I do think scripture hints at a place a person can freely choose to walk away. It's not by accident and it's not because of our own sin, which we all do daily whether we recognize it or not. I think scripture indicates it is a willful, purposeful decision to leave the faith...otherwise, why the admonitions to keep the faith, if salvation can't be rejected again? I think this is a rare bird, not the norm for the typical person who has come to Christ. But I leave that sliver of the opportunity ... not that you can't again return, but you can leave. No one takes us from Christ's hand, but we do have to keep on in the faith. But I absolutely reject EGW's one sin and you're out type idiotology. That keeps people in constant fear, not faith, and elevates our ability to be righteous way more than I think possible when our best righteousness according to Paul is filthy rags. Sorry not to pull all the scriptures out here, but I'm trying to get to bed early so I won't be so hurried in the morning Happy Resurrection day all. Just a funny aside. We had a packed house at church tonight, and the pastor asked how many was this their first time celebrating the resurrection Sunday on a Saturday...everyone I could see raised their hands.... He said, well, if we were in Israel right now, it's sunrise. So, actually, you all are celebrating at the right time. Of course, everyone got a big laugh out of that. If tomorrow's services do as well as tonights, it will be a most blessed worship time! | ||
| Jan Registered user Username: Jan Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2005 |
My key text for understanding assurance in salvation is the very simple but profound: "He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it." If I have given my life to Christ and trust HIm as my Saviour, He will "work out" my salvation. After all, I am a trophy of His grace. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 491 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hannah, you ask about God forcing someone to be saved who doesn't want to be. At the moment we are born again, our spirit is regenerated and brought to eternal life. Our new born again spirit desires the things of God and would never want to "not be saved." Do you really believe that our spirits can cross back over to being dead, after we have "crossed over from death to life" (John 5:24)? If we have eternal life, how can it end? Regarding Hebrews 6, you need to keep reading the context:
This passage seems clear to me that those spoken of in the first part were never saved. It seems to imply that they did not have "things which accompany salvation." They brought forth bad fruit ("thorns and thistles"), not good fruit. They were not Christians. But he's telling the believers that they have produced good fruit and they will receive rewards for it--and will be in heaven! Hannah and Melissa, if you take Hebrews 6:4-6 to mean previously saved people who have "gotten rid of" their salvation, then you would have to admit that once a person has "lost" (for lack of a better word!) their salvation they cannot get it back, as the text says "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance." Interestingly, though, I have not seen very many Christians who would be willing to say that once you "lose" your salvation you cannot get it back! But since there are so many passages which clearly teach eternal security, and this passage does not require a "losing of salvation" interpretation, and the Bible does not contradict itself, I believe in eternal security. I can quote some of those texts sometime later maybe. Melissa, could you give me some examples of texts which tell us to "keep the faith"? Also non-argumentatively, Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on March 26, 2005) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 223 Registered: 7-2004  |
My Dad gave me a brief paper that their Lutheran pastor had copied on the issue of assurance and falling away. I will reprint some excerpts from it.
Trying to excerpt from a lengthy discussion probably doesn't do it justice, but hopefully it maintains some of the ideas. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1684 Registered: 12-2003  |
Ric, what I like about your quote above is that it admits the paradox of eternal security and the warnings--particularly in Hebrews. I do not believe I can lose my security--God is clear that nothing can separate me from His love--yet there is something paradoxical about the tension the Bible seems to show regarding this subject. Our pastor understands these apparently contradictory passages to mean that those who are being warned have never been fully surrendered in the first place. It's back to the parable of the seeds that feel on rocky ground, weeds, rock, and good soil. The seeds on rocky ground and in the weeds sprouted and grew plants, but when it grew hot, the rocky-soiled plants died because they had put down no roots. The plants in the weeds choked to death because they were overcome by the cares of the world. Those plants that died WERE PLANTS. But they did not have what was necessary to flourish and stay alive. Our pastor pointed out that even Judas was sent out with the 12 and received the power of the Holy Spirit to do miracles, yet he rejected Jesus. Judas, in spite of his apparent relationship with Jesus, never really surrendered to belief in Him. I think there is some element of paradox here that will make sense when we are no longer limited by time and mortality. Once we truly surrender to Jesus, I do not believe we can slip away. It seems, however, that people can intellectually assent to Him without surrendering themselves, and they might not actually be in a saving relationship with Jesus. Unless they choose to give their hearts and not only their heads to Him, they will not put down roots, and they will die in the heat or be overcome by the world. I admit that I can't give a completely comprehensive, satisfactory answer to all the questions about this subject--these are my ideas as of now. I'm comfortable, though, with not knowing for sure how it works. But Jesus's promises are sure, and I know I am secure. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 825 Registered: 7-2003 |
John 15:4-6 speaks of abiding in Christ. It is my understanding from a greek teacher I respect that the verb used for abiding in verses 4 and 5 are action verbs that mean to "keep abiding". He says the best translation of verse 6 is "If a man does not keep on abiding in me, or, "Unless a man keeps abiding in me." Also 1 Cor. 8 vs 9-12. It is talking about a baby Christian who has been delivered from idol worship, but can be caused to stumble and perish. 1 Corin 9 24-10:14. In 9:27 there is a word "cast away" or "disqualified". It would appear from the context that he is talking about being disqualified from the prize of eternal life. Chapter 10 talks about Israel not making it to the promised land, and would seem the analogy relates to us as well. Galatians 5:4 says we can fall from grace ... the literal meaning of that word (again, from this Greek professor) is "fell out of". His question is "how can you fall out of grace and still be unconditionally secure?" To your question about Heb 6 is it my understanding that these warnings are based upon the previous verses. It has to do with the greek tensing of the words in "the present active tense"... Again, according to this greek professor, quoting another greek professor, as long as the present action is continuing (denying Christ, crucifying Christ) it is impossible to return to Christ. But if you change your actions, you put yourself in a different position. As the prodigal son changed his life and came home, so the "lost and now found" son can come home in the spiritual sense. 2 Peter 2:19-22 ... verse 20 uses the word "knowledge" and I understand that means persons who have had a true experience with Jesus Christ. And where my phrase came from Col 1:20-23. Vs 23 says if you continue in the faith.... and not be moved away from the hope of the gospel. As I said before, I don't think it is something that is done lightly or at some moment of grief or some emotional response. I think of the person Lee Strobel talks about in one of his "case for..." books. He talks about a man who used to be a very dedicated Christian, but for reasons that escape me at the moment, he turned his back on God and rejected him. When Lee interviewed him for the book, he even spoke of how he missed Christ. But his resolve seemed strong to reject him. I tend to think God will honor his wish. I have a book that I found very helpful in the perspectives of this topic, written by a local pastor/Greek professor that I have referenced for some of this material. This man teaches Greek and Hebrew at the masters and graduate levels (or has at different times). He references a Greek Bible sometimes when preaching from the pulpit to try to explain a text that the English translation may not make real clear (and I've heard other Greek literate people question him from the audience and they each have their Greek NTs talking about the phrases and tenses and word usage). I don't say that to say he knows everything, but to say that having heard and studied this particular topic, it has put a kink in my once saved, always saved position. It just seems possible that someone can still "choose" to reject Christ at some point in their lives. That does not diminish John 3:15, 6:54, 10:28,29, 17:2, 1 John 2:25, 5:11, 13. John 10:29, 2 Ti 1:12, Jude 24, 25. Though I have eternal life, and it is a gift of God's grace, to ignore the other verses seems to incompletely evaluate the topic. Hope that helps explain some of what I understand. As always, I could be wrong.... | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 65 Registered: 11-2004 |
Melissa, I really appreciate and agree with your post. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 492 Registered: 10-2004 |
Melissa, That is interesting what you say about the Greek professor. From all that I've seen, the Greek seems to make it clear that we are eternally saved. For example, Ephesians 2:8 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith;" The Greek tense means an action in the past "leaving a condition or state of lasting significance or status," according to The Discovery Bible. Regarding John 15, the Greek teacher seems to be ignoring the Greek in other parts of the passage. In verse 7, "abide" is a single action and in verses 4 and 9 "abide" is a decisive choice. I think what Jesus is saying is that if you make a decisive choice to abide in Him (verse 4a), you will continously abide (verse 4b) in Him. The first one is a command, the latter is not given as a command. If Jesus had wanted to "command" us to "continuously abide" in Him, He would have used the present imperative (a different tense). The Discovery Bible even uses John 15:4 as an example of this. For "aorist imperative" (the tense used in 15:4a), it says,
1 John 2:24 (NASB) says, "As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." While the first "abide" is present imperative (and also in verse 27), the second "abides" is a single action. "If what you heard from the beginning abides in you [single action], you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." Regarding 1 Corinthians 8, I don't see how that can be talking about us causing a Christian to lose his/her salvation, when Jesus clearly says that we can't pluck a believer out of His hand, and His sheep will NEVER perish. 1 Corinthians 9 cannot be talking about losing salvation, as salvation is NOT a "prize" but a "free gift" (Romans 6:23)! He is referring to the olympic games/races. If you lost, you wouldn't get a prize, but you wouldn't lose your citizenship! It's talking about reward, not salvation. Galatians 5:4 is simply talking about different systems--Law and Grace, like he does in Romans 6, etc. He is just saying that if you place yourself under Law, you are no longer living in the freedom of Grace--you have become enslaved again. Hebrews 6, to me, seems to be saying that if they "have fallen away" (past tense), then it's impossible to renew them again to repentance. Again, I think the context makes it clear these are not believers. About the prodigal son--wasn't he still a "son" while he was off astray? 1 Peter 2:23 (NASB) says: "It has happened to them according to the true proverb, 'A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,' and, 'A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.'" How can this be talking about born again believers?? The Bible says that we become a new creature, the old things have passed away--all things have become new. We are not a sow that has washed, we WERE a sow that has now become a sheep! If they were still dogs and sows, then that means they were not born again. Now, regarding Colossians 1:20-23: It says, "He has now reconciled you" IF "you continue in the faith." This is similar to what it says in Hebrews 3:14 (NASB): "For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end," As David Cloud says,
You wrote, "That does not diminish John 3:15, 6:54, 10:28,29, 17:2, 1 John 2:25, 5:11, 13. John 10:29, 2 Ti 1:12, Jude 24, 25." To me, it would very much diminish the clear promises of Jesus that He WILL raise to eternal life all of those who believe in Him and He will lose none, etc., etc. Hebrews 10:26-39 NASB says:
To those of you who believe we can lose our salvation, what can you possibly make of this passage, especially the last part?? Also, do you not believe that we have been forgiven of ALL of our sins, past, present, and future? If so, how can someone go to hell, if all of their sins are forgiven, and they've been sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit?? (Ephesians 4:30) Well, that's how I see things. I hope this post was not too lengthy! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on March 28, 2005) | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 342 Registered: 9-2004 |
Don't forget... The Lord put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the center of the garden so that Adam and Eve would have the CHOICE to obey him and have a relationship with Him. he didn't force them to have a relationship with Him. And it is no different today. He doesn't force us to accept Jesus as our savior to be saved. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 829 Registered: 7-2003 |
I guess i don't see it as "losing" salvation, but more as rejecting it. I'm not going to argue about greek texts, I don't know Greek and the pastor/teacher I referenced is not one to take a position merely because someone said to take it. He is the most thorough teacher I know, and he has a genuine heart for scripture. He is the only pastor I've ever seen who warns people about the Revelation Seminar mailers they've received. He knows more about the original languages than I ever will, since he's taught it for more than 30 years in seminaries across the world. I personally would never question his integrity or his sincerity in being true to scripture, I've heard him for too many years to think he's pushing a dogma. I don't think the Hebrews 10 text says we can't reject Christ, it says it is to those who have chosen Christ...that doesn't mean you can't reject Christ and seems to say at the beginng of the passage you quote that a rejection is possible to the point of no longer having a sacrifice, but I don't have any personal Greek knowledge to prove one way or the other. As Colleen said, there seems to be a tension between the two and I am not intellectual enough to explain perfectly the entirety of scripture. But to hold onto one or two or 10 texts while dismissing or minimizing other texts is not something I am able to do, though you question my sincerity about that. Neither can I say something doesn't say what it says because it doens't fit my particular frame of reference. Frankly, it is another one of those topics that doesn't affect my day to day life, so I don't sweat over it. If I were contemplating how much I could "sin" and still be saved, I might be concerned, but that is not my goal. But I do know people who have lived the life, and seemed to have a genuine relationship, turn their back upon Christianity. Some would say they were never Christian. Maybe, I'm not able to judge their hearts. But I would hate to assume they're still saved given their open rejection of God now. Again, to me it is not "losing", it is a deliberate rejection. It's not the 10th sin that causes me to stumble out of salvation. It's calmly and rashly saying I don't want this Christianity any more and walking away from it. Frankly, I think of my mother first and foremost. She was raised in a Christian home, and from her friends (although I'm sure you could question their ability to recognize a real Christian), she lived a very Godly, Christian life. Then my dad wanted a divorce and she became a very bitter woman. One time when I was 13, she chastised me for trying to live the Christian life. Her exact remark was "I lived that life and look what it got me, 13 years of marriage and a divorce...." I'm not going into all the things she got into, but I will say she openly ridiculed Christians. Eventually, after almost 20 years, she came back to Christ. If she had died during that period when she was away from God, would she have automatically gone to heaven? I don't know. From the position asserted above, I would presume some would say yes. In which case, why would I try so hard to do the "right" thing, if it didn't help my relationship with Christ? If I still get to heaven any way... there have been many days that would have been enough. It just seems to me to be a dangerous slope to say if you got saved, even though you weren't watered after you sprouted or were planted in shallow soil, you still get to heaven in the end. I am certainly not qualified to say I have perfect Biblical understanding on every text on this topic, I know I am secure in my salvation and don't worry that the next sin I commit will cost it. But I do still think that at some point, I could walk away from the faith. I'm not going to test it to see, though. There are no second chances if you guess wrong. |
