| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1558 Registered: 11-2002 |
Greg, what you are saying is just what I was saying about my kin. They honestly do not see that they are paying homage, money, time and their souls to EGW. They honestly read their Bibles and somehow what they read in their Bibles perfectly matches up to what the SDA church teaches. Whenever I show these kin where the Bible does not say how they believe I get the reply that they are just the ones who don't understand it and when they get to heaven it will be explained to them. They do not even question the authority of the church. Since I'm lost anyway most my SDA kin just don't bother taking spiritual things with me anymore. Sometimes it seems like we don't even agree on the weather! I'll say, "Gosh, it's a georgeous day." They say, "Oh, don't get too pumped up about it. It looks like a storms coming." Yep, that's my life. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 142 Registered: 7-2004 |
Susan, so right! Adventists live in a black/white world until you can show them that is the case, then they go all gray. Slippery as eels. The saddest thing is that they don't really even know that they are quoting indocterination rather than scripture. We have all confessed on here that there have been moments when we had to stop and puzzle out whether what we were thinking was a scriptural quote was Bible or EGW. They are exactly in that position, even their ministers! That means that the leaders are blind, too. I've studied with various SDA ministers, one-on-one, and in some cases it is interesting to see the literary gymnastics they are willing to do to have the scriptures say what they want them to say. You can see it on the Bucky site. By the way, my response to Pastor O'Ffill can be found on page 57. I hope I can keep my promise to myself that that will be my last statement. Colporteur is busily doing the literary jig right now. He even went so far as to say that Paul had written the book of Mark. I think it was just a slip-up on his part, but he really doesn't like Paul! That's okay, because I remember being cautioned, as an SDA, not to take Paul's writings too seriously. What a wealth of Christian joy is lost when Paul is discounted! Paul was taught, directly, for years, by Jesus himself in vision. Of course, EGW claims the same thing happened to her, but Jesus wasn't her tutor, an angel was. I think I'll depend on Paul because he fits with Jesus so much better than Ellen does. Belva | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 143 Registered: 7-2004 |
Oops, I meant to say my last post on the Bucky site was on page 53. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 323 Registered: 6-2004 |
Susan, I know exactly what you mean. Until those who are blinded by these teachings can see past it, it's really difficult to find any common ground. They can claim how faithful they are as far as following the commands of Jesus (but it's really Ellen) but on the other hand just totally look down upon those who refuse to accept their version of the truth. I've been debating for a good 4 months on another forum with SDA's and it just goes round and round. With every New Testament scripture I post, they counter it with an Old Testament one. And then try to imply that I have no regard or knowledge about the Old Testament because I'm no longer following the ten commandments like they do. Makes me want to bang my head against the wall but I refuse to give in to their arguments. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 252 Registered: 3-2004  |
PW, you've been way more faithful than I've been. Once people start denying that Paul should even be in the Bible--that's when the discussion is really going nowhere. While SDAs don't want to think that or admit it, if they're backed into a corner they really want to avoid anything written by Paul. A friend of mine admitted recently that she just avoided the writing of Paul because they didn't make sense! But I'm praying for her because she is the only SDA friend I've had who really wanted to understand what I believe and why I changed. Praise God... | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 748 Registered: 7-2003  |
Feeling somewhat bored, i went over to this other site. I usually don't venture into pure SDA sites because they make me so angry...but I thought I'd test the waters here. I ran into this quote pretty much off the top... --------- "Many in the Christian world also have a veil before their eyes and heart. They do not see to the end of that which was done away. They do not see that it was only the ceremonial law which was abrogated at the death of Christ. They claim that the moral law was nailed to the cross. Heavy is the veil that darkens their understanding. The hearts of many are at war with God. They are not subject to His law. Only as they shall come into harmony with the rule of His government, can Christ be of any avail to them. They may talk of Christ as their Saviour; but He will finally say to them, I know you not. You have not exercised genuine repentance toward God for the transgression of His holy law, and you cannot have genuine faith in Me, for it was My mission to exalt God's law. {1SM 239.2} " ------------- I almost lost my lunch..."it was my mission to exalt God's law." Isn't that setting an idol up above Christ of God's law???? Is this a real EGW quote? I thought Christ said he came to draw people to himself, and to remember him .... And I have always been tossed by the references to God's government...what's up with that? Oh, I think I ought not venture back there or I'll be grinding my teeth all night with irritation! | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 186 Registered: 9-2004 |
Two things: Belva, where do you get the information that Paul was taught for years by the Lord Jesus in a vision? Second, I would like to look up something that EW wrote: the above link says it is at MS 87, 1900. What does this mean, please. Thanks, Tracey | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1561 Registered: 11-2002 |
Since The Clear Word has been out the SDA's don't have to wonder anymore if it's Bible or EGW that they are learning from. They are assuming it's Bible, not bothering to check out the falsehoods written right into the text. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 253 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tracey, you can find articles on the official EGW website at http://www.whiteestate.org/search/published_writings.asp MS means it's a manuscript and 1900 is the year written. Sometimes it's best to search by a phrase or a few keywords. Praise God... | ||
| Qweary Registered user Username: Qweary Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2004 |
I just read the statement by Walter Rea in the "PROCLAMATION!" Magazine, so my feathers are all smoothed down and a beatific smile has reappeared on my face. I wish someone would let Larry Lyon KNOW that the Walter Rea rumor was FALSE!!! That "THE WHITE LIE" is STill "TRUTH-FILLED LITERATURE"!!! Thank you, Colleen, for answering my question and helping God answer my prayer!!! The secret tapes from that momentous GC Committee meeting with Walter Rea were very instrumental in my husband's and my first breaking away from my 6 generation SDA bonds. We THANK that man for his courage! Thank you,too, Belva, for the info that gave us this last serendipity!! | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 254 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hmmmm... last issue I was gloating because for once I'd gotten my issue of Proclamation before others started discussing it. Now I seem to be back to the bottom of the mailing list again. <sigh> | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1457 Registered: 12-2003  |
I did go over to the "cut & Run" site, (as Belva calls it!) and post the info re: Walter Rea and the Proclamation article yesterday. Apparently no one paid any attention to it--or it didn't matter to them. I checked last night and this morning, and it had no respones. I'm sorry about the uneven delivery of Proclamation. I think I've mentioned before that the post offices can, by law, hold magazines up to 72 hours before delivering them if they're very busy. The magazine you receive may well go through multiple post offices before landing in your box. That fact subjects it to multiple possible delays. Be sure you let me know at proclamation@gmail.com if you don't get it within the next week or so. I'll send you one. Greg, your question earlier is a good one. Yes, the dichotomy between ADventists who "worship" Ellen and those who "don't really care about her" is real. The fact is, just as you observed, that both types of Adventists are equally bound to her. All true Adventism is the result of Ellen's visions or her endorsement. The fact that the church built itself around the authority of a false prophet's teachings make the entire organization in bondage to deception and deceiving. The spirit of Adventism is in its heritage. My experience was that not until I called her a "false prophet" (as opposed to "not a prophet" or "I don't need her" or "she's obsolete" or "no one really needs her ", etc.) was I able to begin to see the truth about Adventist doctrines. Whether Adventists realize it or not, they are in bondage to a false prophet until they admit what she really is and renounce her. Figuratively shutting her into a closet and thinking of her as an eccentric but inevitable part of the church does not lessen her hold on ADventism or Adventists. The spirit of deception continued to confuse me until I called her a false prophet. I'll never forget telling my boss at Adventist Today that we were quitting the magazine because we were no longer Adventists. He asked why, and I said (among other things), "Ellen White was a false prophet." Now, this man is very liberal. He even said to us, "I don't for a minute believe that God literally whispered those things in her ear." In fact, this man doesn't really believe in Jesus, either. Yet when I called her a "false prophet", he literally flinched and said, "That's a little harsh, don't you think?" Uh--NO. Yes, Greg--it is a real problem. And those who think they are free of her are perhaps the most enslaved because they don't even know what holds them. Colleen | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2005 |
Colleen, Thanks for your response. Essentially 100% of my circle of Adventist friends and family have the "so what?" response when it comes to Ellen White. For many years I also believed her current role in Adventism was minimal, so I was happy to pigeonhole her. It wasn't until I studied some of the unique Adventist doctrine (brought on by my reading of the Sabbath School quarterly) that I realized how central Ellen White was to Adventism. I went through a mental checklist of unique doctrines and found Ellen White at the center of them all. It is my firm belief that Adventism stands or falls with Ellen White's writings and prophecies. Ironically, I find myself in agreement with the historic Adventists on this point. Greg | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1564 Registered: 11-2002 |
I don't see that it matters much if the individual SDA is totally a believer in EGW or if the individual SDA denies any influence to EGW. Because just by having their nsames on the SDA membership they are acknowledging a belief in EGW. I forget how many of the 27 have to deal with EGW as a continuing sorce of truth but there are several. And, several of the other 27 are doctrines that come stright from the pen of EGW and have no Bibical source. So, weather they want to admit it or not the fact is that just by being SDA they are EGW devotees. And, the SDA doctrine that says that EGW is a continuing source of inspiration is a real handy one for them to have. Since EGW not only contradicts the Bible in numerous places but she also contradicts herself then the conference can change their doctrines as it suits them and still be following what EGW wrote. It's very handy. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 187 Registered: 9-2004 |
I can't believe I just read a writing where EW said Quote: I am asked concerning the law in Galatians. What law is the school-master to bring us to Christ? I answer: Both the ceremonial and the moral code of ten commandments. -Ms. 87, 1900 She contradicted what the church now teaches! C says the 10 are moral and that he is taught that only ceremonial are done away with. Ridiculous, I tell you. Not to mention, there is no REAL separation of the law into these subheadings. We use them just to help understand the law better. For a while now, I have just been so irritated and numb about this stuff. It's so simple, the gospel. I wouldn't become an SDA if nothing else than it's way more complicated than God's Word to understand. | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2005 |
Tracey, I think you saw that quote in a post I made over on the "Bucky" site. I think it was Bob who pointed me to the quote originally. As he also pointed out, Ellen White changed her position on this in later years. The response to my post on the other forum was "this was not her final commentary on the matter". When I pointed out that the changing nature of EGW's writings is one of their most troublesome qualities, the poster came back with "we have the same problem with the Bible". Incredible! Greg | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1459 Registered: 12-2003 |
I believe, Greg, that the historic ADventists are more honest than the "I don't care about her" Adventists. Richard has often said that he believes a staunch historic SDA is easier to convert to true Christianity because, if you can introduce a seed of doubt about Ellen, they will be more likely to pursue that seed of truth than will the average comfortable "I don't care about Ellen" Adventist. Their honesty about Adventism will translate into being more likely to see the whole package as flawed than will the temporizing stance of the liberal, unexamined Adventists. I say this having been an "I don't need Ellen" Adventist for many years. Of course, each person's heart is different, and obviously you and others here as well were able to let go of the deception even though Ellen didn't seem important. I think, though, that in some ways its harder to honestly evaluate the religion if one dismisses Ellen as incidental. She is not; she is basic to the religion. Colleen | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 255 Registered: 3-2004 |
Give me a historic Adventist any day because they are honest in what they believe and they are also willing to let you know their beliefs. I've often wondered if the evangelical Adventist leaders and pastors who use every trick of denial to remain in the church have often thought of the long range implications of their actions. What I mean is that they are still introducing people to Adventism. They are still baptizing new converts. They fool themselves that they are giving them the Gospel (and they well could be.) But what about the next pastor who comes along? And what about the saints in the church that immediately see the newly baptized person as their personal project? You know--let's get the jewelry off because the pastor glossed over that point. They need to hear the health message now and on and on. By getting people caught in the grasp of Adventism without knowing fully what they've gotten into......well, let's just say I'm praying for the eyes of those leaders to be fully open. Praise God... | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 144 Registered: 7-2004 |
Tracey, I made that comment about Paul being taught by Jesus because he made statements to that effect in his epistles. I'll have to look, and right now I don't have access to a concordance (I recently moved). There are direct quotes of Jesus in The Acts of the Apostles. Read Chapters 22 and 23. I was making a generalization because of having read Paul's statements sprinkled throughout his epistles talking about how he had been taught of Jesus. If I misspoke, please forgive me, but if you have a red-letter Bible you will find that there are red-letter quotes throughout Acts, and in most of those cases it is quoting Jesus speaking to Paul. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 188 Registered: 9-2004 |
okay.. I know what you are referring to now. Tracey |
