| Author | Message | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 44 Registered: 12-2004 |
Wham - a rubbery substance that is supposed to be like ham. Wine - fermented grape juice (used only in a negative context) Wine - Grape juice, unfermented (this context used only when the mention in the bible is positive, ie Jesus changed the water to wine, er, grape juice) call - this is a term used to tell others that you have a job offer in another area. Union - an church organizational structure usually consisting of several smaller groups, called conferneces that usually follow state lines. Pathfinder - a youth organization that mimics the scouts. (This is not a vehicle) Cradle Roll - the earliest organized class offered on Sabbath to young people, usually inhabited by mothers as well. This is NOT cruel treatment of babies. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 191 Registered: 7-2004 |
Your post caused me to think. SDAs use the same principle of Biblical interpretation (if we can call it that) when it comes to both the law and wine (and even meat). If it is spoken of in a good way then it has one meaning (the 10 Commandments, grape juice, and generic food), if it is spoken of negatively then it has another (legalism or "ceremonial law, fermented wine, and all animal products). Since the words have such fluid definitions, the word can always mean what they want it to mean! | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 588 Registered: 7-2003 |
SDAs aren't the only ones guilty of this. I heard Adrian Rodgers on his radio show last week strongly hammering the point home that Jesus never ever drank wine or made wine. Whenever the Bible talks about wine in connection with Jesus it means grape juice. Then he turned to other texts that use the word wine in a negative sense, but in those texts the word suddenly really meant wine. Also most reformed theologians do the same thing with the Law. Whenever the NT talks about the Law in a positive sense it means the morale aspects of the Law, especially the Decalogue, but whenever the same word is used in a negative sense it refers to ceremonial aspects of the Law. Never mind that there is no linguistic, contextual, historical, or theological reason to make these sort of arbitrary distinctions. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 693 Registered: 7-2003 |
I heard a pastor this weekend on tv saying that 'archaeologists" have "proven" that the wine in Jesus day was what we would call grape juice. This seems to be an argument across lines...but my question is .... why would drunkenness be mentioned if it were not that there were intoxicating drinks? I'm not any expert on alcohol, but I would tend to think that wine may have been one of the earlier drinks to be alcoholic (didn't Noah get drunk off his vineyard? Obviously wine was alcoholic in his time....). I've also been told that the reason Jesus' miracle got such attention for being "good" wine was that they usually served the best wine first and saved the cheap stuff for later when more people had left or were already too drunk to notice. I don't know how reliable an argument that is either, but it does explain the comment about saving the best wine for last. Anyway, it seems a silly argument to me... the Bible is CLEAR we are not to be drunk, or under the influence of some other substance (which B enjoys using to refer to caffeine in coffee...). Seems to me, we ought to encourage people to seek God's direction on this one, remembering the clear mandate not to be drunk... And though I personally do not drink, that has more to do with growing up with an alcoholic uncle than my thoughts it is somehow "sinful". It is also an issue of how closely can we skirt to the line of sin before we go over it. Is it one drink or two? Can you go to a bar and get that drink or only in a resturant. So many issues to process.... It's just not worth my time to worry about it (besides, it's expensive in my budget....) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1293 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great point, Chris, about the Reformed tendency to do with "law" what many do with "wine". That problem is the basis of so much or our trouble helping Christians understand that Adventism isn't just a particularly legalistic form of Christianity. It's also the reason Adventists are so successful evangelizing other Christians. As long as Christians tout the law as a standard for Christians, Adventists will have the better argument. Whatever happened to Jesus alone? Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 590 Registered: 7-2003 |
Colleen said: "As long as Christians tout the law as a standard for Christians, Adventists will have the better argument." EXACTLY!!! Chris | ||
| Dennisrainwater Registered user Username: Dennisrainwater Post Number: 109 Registered: 8-2000 |
I am quick to agree that we must not be drunkards -- but to allege that the Bible forbids the consumption of any form of alcohol is an absurdity which it's sad to see is not confined to Adventism. (That's part of the 5% that makes me out of step with some of my Baptist brethren...) What does any of these groups make of Deuteronomy 14:22-26? Uh-oh -- come to think of it, I've never heard Adventists (or teetotalling Baptists) address this passage... ;-) Here is the passage from the King James Version:
\heavy sarcasm {Without even touching the point of TITHE taking the form of food that you are to eat yourself in celebration, I can imagine it would drive the average SDA pastor apoplectic to be forced to explain why God *mistakenly* allowed the children of Israel to use their tithe to purchase "strong drink" to consume with their family -- while He later more accurately instructed us by means of Mrs. White to forswear all forms of alcohol...} Strong's Lexicon renders the Hebrew word translated as "strong drink" thus:
Kind of cuts the legs out from under the "wine only means grape juice" crowd... Grateful for freedom, Den <>< | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 48 Registered: 12-2004 |
Den, I was just reading your post to my wife and when it got to the part about wine and strong drink, she added "Vinegar". http://ellenwhite.org/contra9.htm | ||
| Dennisrainwater Registered user Username: Dennisrainwater Post Number: 110 Registered: 8-2000 |
LOL!!! Can someone hand me a towel? I need to clean the coffee off my computer! ;-) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 182 Registered: 7-2004 |
While I completely agree that the Bible does not forbid alcohol, but only forbids drunkeness, I am very glad there are non-SDA churches who serve grape juice instead of wine at communion. I've never tasted alcohol, have no desire to, and the smell is nauseating to me. If all non-SDA churches only served wine at communion, I probably wouldn't be participating. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1401 Registered: 11-2002 |
Provbers 31:4-0, "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or else they will drink and and forget what has been decreed, and will pervert the rights of all afflicated. Give strong drink to one who is perishing, and wine to those to those in bitter distess, and remember their misery no more. Speak out for those who cannot speak, for the rights of the destitute. Speak out, judge righteousley, defend the rights of the poor and the needy." This is one of my favorite passages, at least in the OT. And, believing that God is the Supreme author of the Bible, all the Bible, I take these words for just what they say. I am courious sometimes though how a SDA would interpert this passage. As far as communion goes, in the churches I frequent the individual has the option of grape juice or wine. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 959 Registered: 3-2004 |
When it comes to the commandsments Jesus gave us to love God and to love our neighbors as ourselves, that tells me that if I drink and drive and hurt some one, that is not some thing God wants me to do. If I am at home and am not going anywhere, I can have a drink occasionally. I am not getting drunk and I am not driving after I have had a drink. That is how I apply what the Bible says about alcohol to myself. In Jesus day they did not have cars and probably walked everywhere. Of course a drunk person could fall down and get hurt and probably, if so disposed, could pick a fight. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 295 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dennis, yes, I know, I can't figure out what people do with that passage either, especially those who believe in tithing and even more especially SDAs! If they think tithing is for them, why don't they do it the way the Bible says to??? And also notice what the passage says about meat.  That is one of my favorite passages in the OT, hehe. BTW, did you all know that EGW actually said the EXACT WORDS that the Bible says that false prophets say? Colossians 2:16-23 (NASB) says:
It says that people who have visions say "Touch not; taste not; handle not;" (KJV) Now look at what Ellen G. White says:
There you have it. Absolute proof that EGW is a false prophet. She says to "touch not, taste not, handle not" all alcohol, tea, coffee, and anything else she deems not "healthy"! Also notice that Colossians 2:23 says that these things "are of no value against fleshly indulgence." EGW says that things like not eating meat and spices is of MUCH value against fleshly indulgence!!! Once again completely opposite of what the Bible says!!! Jeremy | ||
| Bartdanr Registered user Username: Bartdanr Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2004 |
Hi Jeremy, Thanks so much for your post. I think that this is such a clear example of EGW's falsehood. Really, when I think about it, I cringe that I did not investigate the SDA church more before becoming a member. I seriously doubt that anyone who is well-informed and has studied the Bible at any length could possibly convert to such a patently false cult. I think it gains converts only from those ignorant of the Bible, or ignorant of the true teachings of the SDA church. (I was the later). I was coming off of a long period of doubt and unbelief when I encountered the SDA church, and I was looking for something to plug into. Well, I plugged into something--but it was not the Church that Jesus Christ founded; it was one that EGW, a false prophetess, founded. It also upsets me that the SDA "Seminars" are deceptive to the highest degree. They deliberately hide their affiliation with the SDA church and try to suck people in with some orthodox Christianity for the first few weeks; then, after gaining your trust, they start giving their twisted gospel. My association with one of these seminars really started opening my eyes to the cultic nature of the SDA church. In Christ, Daniel | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 321 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jeremy, I live in a large SDA-mecca, Walla Walla, WA. It is well known in this community that SDAs go to church on Saturday and are vegetarians. Through my non-denominational Bible study (BSF), I have meet some wonderful, Christian friends. At first they are unbelieving of the SDA beliefs. They do not understand, of course, how anyone can believe such dribble that is not in the Bible. I have printed off several of the more blantant blasphemy that you share with us on the forum and have them in my Bible. I firmly believe God puts people in my life to share the truth of SDA "truths". All of your time and effort in sharing direct quotes with the stated references is very deeply appreciated. THANK YOU! | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 236 Registered: 2-2002 |
Yes Jeremy...I echo Dd.....your sharing of these quotes is very appreciated. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 600 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jeremy, would you mind if I shared the quotes and your comments above with a few formers on my e-mail list (most of them don't read this board)? Chris | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 297 Registered: 10-2004 |
I wouldn't mind at all Chris, go right ahead! Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1316 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, too--thank you, Jeremy! That last quote where Ellen specifically states the opposite of Colossians is amazing. Thanks for putting it up! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1410 Registered: 11-2002 |
Diana, we a country people. One of my closest friends when she was a teenager got thrown into juvenle hall for drunk driving her horse through town. She appaently had that horse going every-witchway. The cop stopped her, took her to juvenile hall and had her dad come get the horse. She still gets ribbed about if from the oldtimers in town as well as friends and family. |
