| Author | Message | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 206 Registered: 3-2004 |
If you remember, I started this thread because of an e-mail conversation with a pastor who thought SDAs were normal Christians. Thanks to DD, I sent him the math formula and said very little except that I would be glad to discuss how I saw all of those issues as being true and would welcome giving him a biblical reason for saying so. Hereís the response I just got: ìThe math formula is from "Watchmen Fellowship" and very familiar to me, in fact I use it in my course. Thanks for bringing it up. I have found that SDA's are a unique people, in that, like the former WorldWide Church of God, many followers experienced the new birth without following the "leader". It would seem that the Holy Spirit, at least in my experience, has seen fit to save and to use individuals as He chooses and I'm thanking God for that. I've even seen Mormons get saved in spite of their "program". It's ALL Him. ìI'm not trying to lump 'em all together and am cautious not to advocate nor be a part of unilateral cross-over fellowship, however, I do look at the individuals. When, according to 1 John 5:6-10 and Romans 8:16 i.e. the witness of the Spirit...fruit should be present allowing us to fellowship with the believer [not] the group. In essentials unity, In unessentials liberty, In all things charity Melanchthon (1497-1560) when writing to M. Luther. ìI welcome the opportunity to look at the SDA doctrines for my better understanding. ìI understand some of your pain. My prayers are there. Let's continue to study to show ourselves approved.î Aarrrgh. As we come to expect, itís ìsome of your painî! Thoughts? Direction? Praise GodÖ | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 684 Registered: 7-2003 |
I have also been consistently disappointed with the response when I talk about SDAs to others. It takes a lot of time to recognize the danger, and frankly, a clearer understanding of scripture on the particular issues than many "typical" christians have. Most of us just aren't that versed in OT law or how we are supposed to honor the 10 Cs as God's law, but not keep the sabbath day. Some principalize it, and others just ignore it, content in ignorance for more important things. Some days I just want to throw my hands up. I had a similarly disappointing conversation with my pastor when "the sabbath" was being discussed by our associate pastor. I really hoped he would have a little more interest than he did, but he generalized the whole by the one or two he's encountered in the past. You just don't get the whole picture from a snippit of the religion. It is deep and intensely deceptive thanks to that revolving dictionary we've mentioned....without a commonality on definitions, using the same terms is misleading at best. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 207 Registered: 3-2004 |
Melissa, yes a "revolving dictionary" is what we're facing. Colleen is there anyway we can put up a dictionary of terms on the website somewhere? I believe it would help all of us plus those future. Praise God... | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 577 Registered: 7-2003 |
I too find the stance of most evangelicals, in regards to Adventism, to be very disappointing. My pastor and I disagree on the Decalogue. He sees the Decalogue as a standard that is applicable to Christians, while I see it as a synopsis of the Old Covenant that was fulfilled in Christ. He just doesn't see why on earth it would be a big deal which day your rested on or worshipped on. He see's the Sabbath command as more of a principle with broad application (i.e. take time for God and don't overwork yourself). He's said several times he just can't understand the importance this seems to hold for SDAs and evidently I haven't been able to adequately communicate the gravity of problem. However, I think he is finally starting to understand through association with a few families that have come out of Adventism, just how toxic the religion can be. He doesn't understand why, but he's beginning to see that those that come out are deeply effected by their experience and they face ongoing persecution from family and loved ones. That alone ought to tip off evangelicals that there is something rotten in Adventism. However, Adventists are even dishonest about the shunning that occures. My MIL recently told a mutual non-Adventist aquantance that she's "just fine" with the decision my wife and I made. I cannot begin to fully communicate how NOT fine with it she is. It's hard to understand why someone would even say such a thing unless they were consciously covering the true situation. I'm interested on if anyone else has had a similar experience with family or friends. Chris | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 274 Registered: 10-2004 |
PraiseGod, Since that pastor said in his other email that he doesn't think SDAs are a cult since they believe in salvation by grace through faith, maybe you should focus on that point and explain to him how they don't really believe that, even if they use those terms. Perhaps you could even give him several EGW quotes that clearly teach a different gospel. Also, he may not be aware that the official SDA beliefs state that EGW's writings are a "continuing and authoritative source of truth" and that they teach (and she claimed) that she was a true prophet with writings inspired by God, but that she had many failed prophecies and false doctrines and is a false prophet. Jeremy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 685 Registered: 7-2003 |
That is a good point, Jeremy, regarding EGW. When I told my pastor she was part of their fundamental beliefs and a confession of her was required before baptism, he was genuinely shocked. I told him a couple of other things he "knew" about the religion, but didn't realize their "spiritual" significance. As Chris' pastor, my pastor still finds the 10 Cs relevant and principlizes the 4th. But the EGW thing did throw him a bit, particularly in relation to baptism. I suspect what clicks with each person will be an individual thing depending upon where they are in their own spiritual journey. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 141 Registered: 9-2004 |
Praise God, I am confused.. Is Ben Carson or isn't he SDA..? Tracey | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 208 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tracey, Dr. Ben Carson is SDA. Attends a church in the Baltimore area described by a friend of mine as very formal and quite dead. Praise God... | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2005 |
PW, You mentioned earlier about the nurse working on Friday nights, and what was the standard? I don't know, either. It used to amaze me how far some SDAs would go to rationalize contrary behavior. Why was it ok for a privileged few, but not for others? I grew up reading SDA books about people who were severely punished for striclty adhering to their SDA beliefs, and then these "modern SDAs" came along and compromised their fiath in all sorts of ways. It confused the "all-consuming fire" out of me! (Is that an appropriate SDA cuss word, or what?) You know, in a cult, the leader usually gets away with behavior that is absolutely contrary to the way he (or she) teaches the cult's belivers to act. It seemed to me that the SDAs who compromised their beliefs, or who "granted persmission" for others to do likewise, were the ones who were the most pious. I might be stretching this point, though... | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 142 Registered: 9-2004 |
thx PG.. <sigh> Frankly speaking, I was kinda hoping that someone C admired had left it. lol! Tracey | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2005 |
Thanks, everyone, for your kind words and sound advice. As usual, I keep forgetting to "let go and let God." I know God is working out His plan, but I always worry about the future and try to work it out myself. I'm not a pastor, but in this small church to which I've belonged, the pastor is often not here but at other churches in his district. So, I deliver quite a few sermons. (I had to wonder whether God was trying to tell me something when, for three months in a row, I was either ill or weather prevented attendance on the days I was scheduled to speak :-) I accepted a leadership role years ago as the membership was declining, and now there's only a few left (and they're almost entirely board members). My main issue with the SDA church over my entire lifetime was perfection. That's why I previously mentioned that I try to hide my sins from SDAs, and when I returned to being an SDA a decade ago after an absence, I did so after reading Romans and realizing that Christ's grace covered my sins and I didn't have to be perfect. Along with this, I thought the church was changing (for example, the Review's fresh look in the mid-90's), and for a long time I thought I was changing with it as I was studying my Bible. But "good" SDAs would explain to me where I was wrong after I'd preach a sermon purely from the Bible, and within the past year things have finally come together: I've realized why the Bible and Ellen White are irreconcilable, and I've realized what the true foundation of the SDA faith is. Thank you for your prayers and support! May God bless our journey to biblically-sound truth and faith. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 180 Registered: 7-2004 |
Cy, I can certainly relate to your experience! Perfection was the issue that bothered me the most and from the earliest. I distinctly remember being so frustrated with that concept and finally deciding in my early 20's that if that's what God is like, I wanted nothing to do with Him. I quit going to church for a number of years, eventually started reading the Bible and started discovering grace. I came to realize that even IF perfection is required the way SDA's said it was (which of course I no longer believe), that the Bible says we can trust God to finish the work in us. So I started trusting God, and eventually went back to church. I also thought I could see exciting changes, with the new look of the Review and the emphasis seemed to have changed to be more grace-oriented. Eventually, especially as our kids got old enough to ask questions, I began to see the church hadn't changed at all but was mostly trying to change its appearance. It didn't take long from that point to get completely out, and that was about six months ago. This whole process, from my initial doubts until now, took almost 20 years! It's been amazing these last several months to see God's leading! Even though we're still not settled in a new church yet, we have greatly narrowed down to what we're looking for. Also, the Lord has recently provided for us to get nourished in His Word in spite of not being in a church regularly. That's a whole story in itself, but we are now in Bible Study Fellowship classes, and I highly recommend them! I'm confident God will lead you and make His way known just as He has with each of us. I heard such an inspiring sermon last Sunday about being patient and letting God answer and lead in His timing, not ours. It was exactly what I needed to hear! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1276 Registered: 12-2003 |
PraiseGod, what an awesome idea! I'll start work on a "dictionary of Adventist/Christian terms", and I invite all of you to email me suggestions for entries (including definitions, if you wish!) at Proclamation@gmail.com. That'll be a wonderful resource! Melissa and Chris, your observations are so true: Christians just cannot see "what the problem is" until they interact over a period of time with SEVERAL formers. The fact that we all experience so much exit trauma (as opposed to pain in the denomination, as you alluded to, PraiseGod), the fact that we all experience distinct shunning and hostility and irreconcilable anger from people close to us--these things ought to raise mighty large red flags in Christian observer's eyes. Mainsteam Christians do not experience these things when transferring denominations. Jeremy, your suggestion for sort-of "camping" on EGW when talking to them is probably good. The church's ongoing adherence to her as a source of doctrine and truth is something they just don't know. If they can become concerned about her prophetic status, they might have a chance of realizing that Adventist's words might not mean what they sound like. After all, if the church can deceive the world about a false prophet, it's a much less difficult thing to deceive the world about doctrines when the words sound orthodox. Cy, praise God that He has led you to know Truth. Prayers for you continue. Colleen | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 211 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks so much Colleen. I'm swamped with work right now but will try to get some things pulled together next week perhaps. Does anyone have the new Q on D or know if that could be helpful on our language problem? I hate to spend money on SDA books, but if it could be a good resource for our dictionary.... Praise God... | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 265 Registered: 5-2002 |
Camping on EGW is right on target. She is the key piece in the spiritual Jenga game that is Seventh-day Adventism. Once a person sees the evidence clearly that she was a false prophet, the rest of the tower eventually crumbles around her. Sometimes it takes years, sometimes it happens right away in an "a-HA!" moment, but eventually everything that is unique to SDAism must come tumbling down because it came from her pen (so to speak). I suggest that every former who is trying to present the REAL truth to those still inculcated and bound is to dig in your heels on this one issue and never give an inch. Eventually, they must concede or deceive. There are no other options with her. Her own words force that conclusion. Believe everything or don't believe a word of it. All in or all out. Yes, it is confrontational and offensive to historic SDA's who literally worship the water she walked on, but it does force the issue. Either they come to the place where they can finally face the truth about her false prophecies, or they end up with significantly unresolved cognitive dissonance that drives them to seek truth. Either way, the seed of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ has been planted in the heart. The rest is up to God. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 467 Registered: 1-2003 |
This is interesting: Urgent Prayer Request from Pastor Doug Batchelor! The devil is mounting a powerful campaign from with in and without to stifle the upcoming NET '05 meetingsóThe Prophecy Code. The broadcasts begin on Friday, March 4, on the Hope channel and 3ABN. (Go to www.net05.org, for more information.) We have experienced some serious problems getting out advertising for this event, and now we are turning to the people of God for much-needed help. First, I need you to please pray for this seriesóthat God will open the floodgates and keep this important event moving forward. And second, I would be very grateful if you would forward this note to any dedicated SDA friends you have. Like you, I am annoyed by the typical chain letter, but by sharing this urgent message, this is truly a way you can use the internet to help spread the truth and save souls. I know satellite evangelism really works. Within two years of our NET '99 series in NYC, more than 150,000 people were baptizedóand not just in New York, but everywhere around the world in churches that broadcast The Millennium of Prophecy. Now, in a little over a month, we are taking our team to Washington D.C. area to present The Prophecy Code. Please pray that God will bless our efforts at the nation's capital, and if your church or home can receive either 3ABN or Hope Channel, you can register and bring people to Jesus! Never has there been such an intense interest in prophecy. Even after the blockbuster Left Behind series, prophecy continues to sell. Worldwide fascination with prophetic themes is at an all-time high. Prophecy and religious themes feature prominently in movies and TV. Best-selling books like The Da Vinci Code, The Bible Code, and American Prophecies have fueled the growing interest in Bible prophecy. Wars, freak weather, deadly natural disasters, and terrorism are devastating every inhabited continent. Millions of anxious people are lying awake at night, asking God for answers regarding the future. "Earthquakes, tempests, tidal waves, pestilence, and famine have multiplied. The most awful destructions, by fire and flood, are following one another in quick succession. The terrible disasters that are taking place from week to week speak to us in earnest tones of warning, declaring that the end is near, that something great and decisive will soon of necessity take place" (RH, Nov 22, 1906). Thousands of SDA churches in North America have satellite equipment ready to receive this program, but only a small percentage of these churches have registered to participate in The Prophecy Code event. There is still time to utilize The Prophecy Code to reach your community, but you must act soon! It would be a tragedy not to take advantage of the unprecedented interest in world events and prophecy. There are three levels of participation available, requiring varying degrees of investment and energy. 1. EASIEST AND LEAST EXPENSIVEóOrder the attractive fliers online and have your local church address information printed on them. (This can be done on a church copy machine or at a local copying business.) Urge your members to use the handbills to invite their friends, family, and neighbors. Turn on Amazing Facts' The Prophecy Code broadcast and let the Holy Spirit work. 2. BETTER RESULTSóHave handbills mailed to your community ZIP codes, and urge your members to distribute additional fliers to friends, family, and other acquaintances as personal invitations. Open the doors and turn on the program. (The last day to order handbills with church specific information is January 24, 2005.) 3. BEST RESULTSóHave handbills mailed, order study guides and Bibles to be handed out to attendees, and follow the online program manual available at www.net05.org. Utilize as many personal invitations as possible! Experience has demonstrated that this multifaceted approach produces the greatest harvest. Please say a prayer now for this seriesóand send this letter to as many SDA friends as you dare. "The harvest truly is plenteous, but the laborers are few; Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest" (Matthew 9:37, 38). Thank you, and God bless you for your help. Pastor Doug Batchelor President, Amazing Facts P.S. All churches that register before January 27 will receive a free copy of the new Final Events DVD! | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 212 Registered: 3-2004 |
Let's pray mightily for Jesus to be uplifted and for God's will to be done over this event. I'm extremely cautious about praying "against" anything. We really don't know how God wants to move to reveal himself in all of this. Praise God... | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 230 Registered: 2-2002 |
Did I read that right? The meetings are now being called "The Prophecy Code?" Give me a break! This disgusts me! Some years back they started with the "Net" series, then in 2001 they start shadowing everything with 9/11. More recently everything is "Passion" this and "Passion" that.....now "The Prophecy Code." Ugh! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 276 Registered: 10-2004 |
I share the same digust, Carol. They will take advantage of whatever is going on (including natural disasters such as the tsunami!), whatever is popular, etc. to suck people into their cult! Did you notice that Doug even admits to this in that email? He wrote: "It would be a tragedy not to take advantage of the unprecedented interest in world events and prophecy." And he talks about "saving souls" and "bringing people to Jesus"! They target Christians (the 2000 GC session said that 96%(?) of their evangelism is targeted at Christians!) and then say that Christians need to be "brought to Jesus"?! Of course, "Jesus" really means "SDA church" I guess. I never knew that Christians need their souls saved! Another note on the earthquake/tsunami: Notice how Doug Batchelor quotes EGW as if the earthquake/tsunami proves her to be a true prophet. But it actually proves her to be a false prophet! She said that the Lisbon earthquake and tsunami in the 1700s was the fulfillment of prophecy. But that earthquake was not as strong, and resulted in less than half the number of deaths! The Lisbon earthquake is not (and was not even when she wrote!) "the most terrible earthquake that has ever been recorded." You can see more about her failed/false prophecy here: http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw42.htm Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 277 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, Feel free to use any of the terms from my post earlier in this thread, for the dictionary. And, if you want, you can use my definitions or edit them/word them better!  Jeremy |
