| Author | Message | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 198 Registered: 3-2004 |
Recently I made the acquaintenance of a pastor who is well respected in the community as a Bible scholar. He's well educated with a doctorate. I've attended a couple of his Bible studies and they have been excellent. We were communicating via e-mail on a couple of topics and something happened to be said about Adventists and I said enough that he knows I don't consider them mainstream Christians. Here is the response I got back from him: "I've taught comparative religions as a class in Bible College and have a 10 hour course called Christianity: Cults and Religions, but at no time have I nor would I refer to and teach that the SDA is a cult since they (those I've been exposed to over the last 32 yrs.) truly believe that salvation is by grace according to Eph. 2:8-9. However, I'm aware of the Ellen G. White teachings having spent 15 yrs. in the Maryland area and saved in Takoma Park in a Methodist church. The influence that they had on me, including that of a former employer, was all positive." I was hoping he was more astute, but then how many equally brilliant pastors have been fooled. How would you respond to him? I could give him a list of cult-like features. This pastor is planting a church and had close to 300 on his first Sunday so he is someone with a lot of influence in the community. Any suggestions on approach would be greatly appreciated. Praise God... | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 264 Registered: 5-2002 |
I would put "Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists" by Dale Ratzlaff into his hands and ask him, with gentleness and respect, to reconsider his position. You might also introduce him to the idea that many people have actually been harmed by this religious system. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1260 Registered: 12-2003 |
PraiseGod, I wholeheartedly endorse Freatlast's suggestion. I might even add Greg Taylor's book as well, since the New Covenant seems to be a sticking point even for many evangelical scholar-types. Between the two, he should be able to see what the problems are. Greg's book also explains what the religion demands of and does to a born-again pastor trying to work on the inside. It seems that pertinent reading material is one of the best ways to make the uninformed SEE. Oh, BTW, I was surprised, last summer, when we had a conversation with an evangelical pastor friend of ours who runs a ministry for the entertainment industry. We've frequently chatted about Adventism over the years, but when we explained the Adventist view of the spirit as breath and talked about its implication for Adventists' confusion about the nature of Christ and being born again, we could see the lights come on in his head. He summarized our conversation that cults always are wrong about the 3 S's: Sin, salvation, and the Savior. IT's as if he suddenly saw that there was more wrong here than variations on a Christian theme. (And don't you just love the authoritative, slightly condescending way they have of telling US that they KNOW, and they believe Adventists are brothers in Christ--and why are you so hot an bothered about this, in essence? I'm always floored by that reaction. Somehow our status as formers makes us suspect instead of knowledgable. I can only surmize that what we say threatens something they can't articulate to us. Defensiveness is a cover for feelings of fear and threat.) Sigh. Praise God that He Is Truth and the Revealer of Truth! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1351 Registered: 11-2002 |
Since he seems to believe the SDA teaxches we are saved by grace I would like for you to inform him of the limited edition of grace doctrine of the SDA church. This being that those who are ignorant of the SDA truth are under grace only until they learn about the SDA truth. If they learn the truth of Adventism they have rejected grace and are hence lost. If they become SDA they are only under grace as long as they follow all the laws, rules and dictates, which includes the writings of EGW as a continuing sorce of truth. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 265 Registered: 10-2004 |
You summed up the SDA's version of "salvation by grace" pretty well, Susan! That's the thing that Christians need to know--SDAs may use the same TERMS that Christians use, but they mean something totally different; they have totally different definitions. I think he needs to know the fact that they don't really believe in salvation by grace, and also that they are under the satanic hold of a false prophet. If a church has a false prophet, shouldn't that alone make them a cult? I'm amazed that Christians can think they're not a cult, when they have a false prophet! Don't they know the SDAs have a false prophet? I guess for some of them their main criteria is the gospel, which is good, but they should check into what gospel the false prophet taught--instead of just believing and taking the term "salvation by grace/faith" at face value! I doubt if a false prophet has ever taught the true gospel. And the true gospel includes having the truth about who God is, who Jesus is, and who we are--sinners. Jeremy | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 199 Registered: 3-2004 |
Didn't we have a discussion on some thread about all the different terms that have different definitions within Adventism? Could someone point me to that thread or else repost the terms with the evangelical definitions and the Adventist definitions. Great responses so far! Praise God... | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1355 Registered: 11-2002 |
The JW's and the Mormons also use Christian termonology but the words and phrases have totally different meanings in those groups also than in pure Christianity. I think that this language thing is a mark of a cult. I know with the SDA they use all the right words and phrases. Then they hook the person into making the commitment to Adventism. Then before long, maybe a short time, maybe years, but the person absorbes the terms and words and readjusts his understanding of those words meanings to fit the SDA understanding of those words. I honestly do know what I'm trying to convey. Of course, a person born into Adventism grows up with understanding the terms and words the SDA way. Someday I will share when the lightbulb went off over my head and I was fully understanding GRACE. It was awsome. The bishop that I finily "got it" from got a long letter from me afterwards written from my heart to let him know his explanation was truly given to me through him by God because it was from him that I got the understanding of grace. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 176 Registered: 7-2004 |
I don't know where that thread might be, but I'm convinced that to SDAs: sola or alone means "one among others" faith means "obedience to the law" righteousnes by faith means "If I have faith, God will make me into a righteous person, deserving of heaven." grace means "payroll advance" | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 266 Registered: 10-2004 |
According to SDAism: "Spirit of Prophecy" = "Ellen G. White" "Testimony of Jesus" = "Ellen G. White" "Mark of the Beast" = "Worship of God on Sunday" "Seal of God" = "Sabbath-keeping" "Michael the Archangel" = "Christ" "scapegoat" = "Satan" "conversion" and "born again" = "God gives you power to keep the Law" (according to Doug Batchelor) "salvation" and "eternal life" = "something that occurs at the Second Coming (if you have become perfect and sinless) once Satan bears your sins as your scapegoat and you get to heaven" "Atonement" and "Day of Atonement" = "something Jesus is doing for us in the Heavenly Sanctuary if we are becoming perfect and which will be completed when Satan bears our sins as scapegoat" human spirit = "breath" human soul = "body + breath" death = "breath departs from body>soul ceases to exist>entire person ceases to exist" "hell" and "lake of fire" = "this world's surface burning with fire for a short period of time at the end of the Millennium; all wicked people, demons, and Satan are cast into this fire for a short period of time until they are all completely annihilated" (there is no "hell" at all currently and there is no "abyss"--the bottomless pit where Satan is chained up for a thousand years is simply the surface of the earth) "the Remnant Church" and "the only true church" = "SDA church" "evangelism" = "trying to convert people (especially Christians!) to SDAism" "baptism" = "being immersed in water as a means of joining the SDA church and agreeing to it's doctrines" Jesus' perfect life = "merely an example for us to follow in also living a perfect life" The Bible is "not inerrant, is not verbally inspired, and is thought-inspired" And I'm sure there are many more. Jeremy | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 309 Registered: 7-2004 |
I just came home from a WONDERFUL Spirit-filled morning with two awesome, former SDA's who I recently found out live here in my community. WOW!!! God really outdid Himself for me today! Here is something they shared with me regarding Cults and basic, simple math. You know a religion is a cult if they: ADD to scripture SUBTRACT from Jesus MULTIPLE the requirements for salvation DIVIDE their members from other Christians Sound familiar?? I do not know where this simple math formula orginiated so I am unable to give proper credit to the source. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 310 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jeremy, Thanks for the list above - what about the health message? That's an SDA "biggie"! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 932 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks Dd and Jeremy for your information. For me all I need is Jesus. I am glad it is so simple. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 267 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dd, I guess I was trying to mainly stick with terms used in the Bible or by evangelical Christians. The SDA's "health reform message" is so far out there, that it's terminology doesn't even have roots in the Bible or Christianity! ;-) Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 268 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dd, that simple math formula is great! I found a web site that has something similar to what your friends shared with you, about addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. It also has a list of "Characteristics of a Cult." Many of them fit SDAs. Here's the link: http://www.tlem.net/cults.htm Jeremy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1356 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeremy, You summed up the Adventism very well that I grew up knowing. Dd, I think I will wruite your math formula down to share with others. Thanks. Jeremy again, I read the website above. I do not understand how come Mormons and JW's are listed and not SDA. My favorite cult is stilkl the Hare Krishnas. I've been to a lot of Krishna gatherings. They have an awsome feast afterwords. I like going to Krishna gatherings. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 285 Registered: 4-2000 |
Dd, Thanks for sharing the simple, four-point formula to determine if a religion is a cult. It perfectly fits the SDA teachings in every category. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2000 |
Dd and Jeremy, I too found that website and the "formula" a couple of years ago. I printed out the "characteristics of a cult" and made some copies, and have given it to some of my Christian friends at church, after we have had discussions about SDAs. I also found a one-page summary of SDA errors. I carry a couple of copies of it with me at all times in my Bible, and I hand it to people when the subject has come up. I think they are more likely to take seriously my witness against Adventism if I give them something brief that they can read later. I always let them know that I have other materials that I can give them if they need more details. Bob Bob | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2005 |
From my personal experience, I've sensed that SDA at least borders on pseudo-cult status, if not outright cult status. I think a lot of it depends on how deep you "burrow" into the teachings. The further you go, the more your logic turns into rationalizations. Some of you alluded to SDA being wrong or adding to the scriptures. Here's another example. At MBA, I asked my Bible Teacher, "We believe that with the exception of the 10 commandments, all Old Testament laws were nailed to the cross, right?" When he answered, "Yes", I then asked him why we observed the laws regarding kosher meats. He cited me an example from the New Testament, apparently involving a near schism in the early church between ex-Jew and gentile Christians. Paul and other early leaders held a conference, and came back with some simple dictates. I believe one of them regarded not eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols (anyone know this reference to a near-schism?). The upshot of my teacher's answer was, even though there's no Biblical basis to maintain kosher laws, there is a Biblical basis that the true church can add to the laws of God as long as they don't contradict existing laws. It sounded like bushwa to me even then. And at the very least it seems like it sets a dangerous precedent for any kook to come along and say, "I've been shown knew laws," and lead people into a cult. (Oh wait, did that already happen?!?) | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2000 |
This ongoing discussion about how people find ways to justify their denial of obvious truth came to my mind when I read the following humorous story this evening on another Christian website. I thought it was worth sharing with all of you. ---- WHO IS RIGHT? Four ministers had a series of theological arguments, and three were always in agreement against the fourth. One day, the odd pastor out, after the usual "3 to 1, majority rules" statement that signified that he had lost again, decided to appeal to a higher authority. "Oh, Lord!" he cried. "I know in my heart that I am right and they are wrong! Please give me a sign to prove it to them!" It was a beautiful, sunny day. As soon as the minister finished his prayer, a storm cloud moved across the sky above the four. It rumbled once and dissolved. "A sign from God! See, I'm right, I knew it!" But the other three disagreed, pointing out that storm clouds form on hot days. So the pastor prayed again: "Oh, God, I need a bigger sign to show that I am right and they are wrong. So please, Lord, a bigger sign!" This time four storm clouds appeared, rushed toward each other to form one big cloud, and a bolt of lightning slammed into a tree on a nearby hill. "I told you I was right!" cried the minister, but his friends insisted that nothing had happened that could not be explained by natural causes. The Pastor was getting ready to ask for a *very big* sign, but just as he said, "Oh God...," the sky turned pitch black, the earth shook, and a deep, booming voice intoned, "HEEEEEEEE'S RIIIIIIIGHT!" The minister put his hands on his hips, turned to the other three, and said, "Well?" "So," shrugged one of the other pastors, "now it's 3 to 2." | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1262 Registered: 12-2003 |
That story pretty much sums up our past, doesn't it? Thanks, Bob! BTW, Tom, the incident where the apostles decided the gentiles didn't have to adhere to any requirements except no immorality, no blood, no meat from strangled idols and no meat offered to idols is in Acts 15. Colleem |
