| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 161 Registered: 4-2000 |
Dane, Thank you for sharing the wonderful results of grace giving in your church. Indeed, the Gospel breeds generosity wherever it takes root. With Spirit-led giving, the Christian no longer yearns for the laws of Moses to finance the Great Commission. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 662 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dane, what a wonderful church! I love your sentence, Dennis--"With Spirit-led giving, the Christian no longer years for the laws of Moses to finance the Great Commission." It's so true--we yearn for the law when we don't know Jesus. Our hearts want something to make our lives make sense and our spirits to be peaceful. And the law only puts an external structure around us; it doesn't fill our empty hearts. Praise God for Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2004 |
Our church is in Fort Wayne, Indiana where we live. Dane | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 653 Registered: 7-2000 |
Thanks Dane, I'm so glad there really are churches out there that don't have to go back "under the law" to motivate Christian giving! Dennis & Colleen, Yes, "yearning for the law" is the way some live their lives...giving them a means of "evaluating" or "measuring" their Christian experience. The simplicity and clarity of just being IN CHRIST is missing! It makes me sad to hear of those who want to go back under that works system after seeing Jesus. grace always, cindy | ||
| Krista Registered user Username: Krista Post Number: 16 Registered: 8-2004 |
The Christian non-denominational church I've been attending rarely mentions tithing. Here's what they say: "Our intention in not collecting an offering was to focus worship on the central act of coming together and to downplay any distractions to worship. Since some see "passing the plate" as the church asking for money, rather than as an act of worship, the elders chose the secret way to give (see Matthew 6:4). We believe, though, that giving remains a central act of worship for believers. For those of you who wish to give and were unsure what to do with your offering, there are boxes at each Sanctuary exit and in the foyer in which a tithe or offering can be placed. " So far this year, the tithes and offerings are well over $5,000,000! Praise God! | ||
| Krista Registered user Username: Krista Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2004 |
PS - The church is: http://northlandcc.net/ | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 539 Registered: 3-2004 |
I attend the Central Christian Church in Henderson, NV. The following is from a book written by a minister for new comers to the church who want to know more about Christianity. It is called DiscoveryE. Under FAQ #1 there is a story. "I heard a story aboout 3 ministers who were at a conference one day. During one of the breaks, they were discussing the isssue of how much a person should give. The first pastor said, "I use the circle method. I take a piece of chalk, draw a circle on the ground, take all my money, and throw it up in the air. Whatever lands on the inside of the circle..I give it to God". The second pastor said, "That's amazing! I use the circle method too. Except, what I do is I take a piece of chalk, draw a circle on the ground, take all my money, and throw it up in the air. Whatever lands outside the circle.. I give it to God." The third pastor stood there shaking his head in amazement. "I, too, use the circle method, he said. "Except what I do is I take a piece of chalk, draw a circle on the ground, take all my money, and throw it up in the air. Then..whatever God wants, He keeps. OK, so maybe this isn't such a good method of giving." Then the text to read is 2 Cor 9:7 Let each one give as he has planned in his heart, neither grudgingly or by compulsion; for God loves a happy giver. They book quotes Mal 3:10 and explains that is how the Israelites were told to give. "This principle can be applied to the local church of today. In our system, we hire ministerial staff to lead, shepherd, and coordinate worship for the body. It costs money to hire staff. We also choose to have a building in which we worship, fellowship and learn. It costs money to maintain a facility. The tithe goes to the place where you worship in order to support that ministry." So far there have been no sermons about tithing and offerings. An offering plate is passed at each service. There is no harangue about money before the plate is passed. I really appreciate it. The man who wrote these lessons emphasized that God provides. From what I have read there is a system of accountability of how the money is used. He also believes that giving to God is a part of worship. I just wanted to share what is happening at the church I attend. It is so different than the SDA church. It is refreshing. Diana | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 659 Registered: 7-2000 |
Diana, It sound like they are fairly grace-oriented as far as giving...And yet, I just wish they would not use the term "tithe". Perhaps I am too sensitive about the term "tithe" coming from a legalistic background of teaching people that "tithe" was a definitely a "sacred" amount that must be paid first! It is still so easy to, even subtly, promote this "tithing principal" with the end result being a guilt-producing measuring rod of ones' spirituality. Of course, the needs of a necessary monthly income for church expences should be addressed, but why term it "tithe"? Why not instead just invite people to "excell in the grace of giving" because of Christs' "indescribable gift"! (2 Cornthians 8 & 9). grace always, cindy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 672 Registered: 12-2003 |
I admit I have the same knee-jerk reaction to the word "tithe". I much prefer giving simply to be addressed as just giving. I do think the word tithe elicits deep responses of obligation in people. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 540 Registered: 3-2004 |
I understand about that knee jerk reaction as I get it also. In my mind I translate tithe to "offering" and ask God how much He wants me to give. It led me to do my research on the OT tithing system. I will bring it up Sunday at the DiscoveryE class I will be finishing up. So far this is the only thing I have found that is not quite what I want in a church, but it is not a salvation issue. I have learned so much about Jesus and what He wants from me and what I can give back to Him. From what I understand only every third year did the tithes go to support the Levites, aliens, fatherless, and widows. The other years the tithes were to be taken to a city designated by God. All the tithes were to be taken there. If the tithe was too much, seeing as it was produce and animals, they were to be sold and the money take to the designated city. There the people were to buy food, drink for themselves and the Levites. The Levites were to pay a tithe on what they received. I got this from Deut 14:22 to the end of the chapter and from Deut 12:27 - 29. So it looks like, to me, that the tithe was not paid directly to the Levites every year. So if we are to emulate them with our giving, all tithes are not paid directly to the clergy. If I am wrong, I am open to correction, from the Bible, of course. From the NT I understand that God wants us to give cheerfully and not grudgingly. He wants us to give what we can, remembering that all we have comes from Him. I never did research like this as an SDA. It is refreshing to see what the Bible says and voice my opinions. God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 66 Registered: 9-2004 |
I was thinking about the tithe issue you all brought up.. And while I am fine being sure to give a tenth of my income, and I also give from my heart, even greater than a tenth many times. It just has never been an issue for me. I do see your point given all of your background though. I certainly can understand you guys being "uptight" or the knee jerk reaction to any words from OT legalism, law etc when you hear tithe. I think I would think "red flag" myself.. Abraham tithed prior to the law and have you guys read Matthew 23:23? Basically Jesus said that the Pharisees give a tithe but miss the weighter matters of the law: justice, mercy and faith. Then he said you ought to do what you've done but without leaving the others undone.. It's enough NT scripture for me to at *least* do a tenth.. It's certainly an interesting topic as I have not known people within the faith to dispute it. (maybe dispute isn't the correct word) But you know what I mean. I'm sure all of you give from the heart frankly, but I What do you think of that scripture? | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 121 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hello Tracey, I seem to remember you saying you attend a Pentecostal church, is that right? Sorry if I am wrong, and not that it really matters anyway, but I also am from that tradition, so maybe it is OK for me to say that I know lots of people in my church who dispute the validity of tithing for Christians. When I first joined an AOG church (in North Wales, in the early 80s) we were taught that tithing was old covenant, and we should give as the Spirit led. The verse in Matthew is in a New Testament book, but it is spoken to the Pharisees, who were Jews living under the Old Covenant, so of course they should have tithed. There is nothing in the New Testament which even hints that Christians should be expected to tithe. Taking tithing back to Abraham (or Jacob, who also mentioned it) seems to me to be in the same category as taking Sabbath keeping back to creation. It is eisegesis, forced, and highly unconvincing. Just to go into really cynical mode, it is often preached that the old covenant is obsolete, but tithing is still taught based on Mal 3: 8-10 - basically because who cares about the truth when money is imvolved, and there are no NT scriptures to support it (but check out 1 Cor 5: 9-11). If we were to postulate that many churches are more interested in building their own empires than the kingdom of God, then just imagine how much more effectively this could be done if they preach tithing. If everyone tithes, then the money pours in and the empire is build without either the leaders or the congregation ever bothering to listen to the Holy Spirit about whether he actually wants this to happen. Just a hypothetical scenario of course... Please excuse the sarcasm, I am just really struggling with all the dishonesty I see in the church at the moment, and I don't just mean the cults either. God bless all of you who are seeking to serve God from a pure heart! Adrian | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 696 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yes, Adrian, I agree with you...unfortunately, not just our particular cult but many mainstream churches continue to promote the Old Covenant tithe, albeit dressed up in New Covenant language and taught as the "tithing principle". No matter how tithing is taught--as either a legalistic "duty" or even as a seemingly more grace-based "guideline" (as a "goal" to work "towards or go beyond")--I feel the results remain the same, subtly eroding the liberty of New Covenantal believers in Christ, those who now live in the Spirit with His promptings to "excel in this grace of giving." 2 Corinthians 8:7 grace always, cindy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 789 Registered: 12-2003 |
I totally agree with both of you, Adrian and Cindy. We can't hang onto any old covenant command just because it makes logical sense. We have to surrender even our desire to control our money to God. Churches must surrender their needs to God, and people must surrender their hope for God's blessings which tithing seems to promise. Ultimately, we must surrender everything dear to us to God and throw ourselves on His mercy and strength. As Richard said the other day after a partiuclarly trying experience, "I guess we can't expect things to 'settle down' as time goes on. We know that things will just continue to get worse." In spite of the fatalistic tone of those words, in context he was not being fatalistic. His point was that when we commit our lives to Jesus and to honoring Him through every part of our lives, we can expect to endure hardships, persecution, spiritual assaults, misunderstandings, etc. It's part of belonging to Christ. We experience His sufferings. Tithing will never ensure that we will not suffer or that we will have plenty. Our Father in heaven assures us of our provision; beyond that, our only "job" is to seek first the kingdom of heaven and His righteousness, and He takes resonsibility for us. The "color" or our relationship with God is based upon our hearts and our surrender of them, not about being sure we give 10% or any other thing. All we have is His. The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away; blessed be the name of the Lord. Colleen | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 128 Registered: 2-2003 |
Yes, it is that totally letting go that can be so scary for people, but it is the only way. And I agree about things not getting any easier. I find that after God has stretched my faith, patience, tolerance, etc. to the limit, then He just goes and stretches it some more. Like I am feeling this week :-) It is strange, I just really had to laugh tonight. I sort of had this thought: I pray for God to give me wisdom and insight about things, and then when He does, I get really angry about why does the church not see this, and why is there so much chaos and corruption. I then thought, God probably does not give me insight so I can rant about it for two days - then I laughed. Oh well, praise God that He has a sense of humour too. Thank you all for your support, Adrian | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2004 |
 I'm reminded of the verse "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him" I'm so glad he is trustworthy! helovesme2 | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2004 |
Tracey, Notice what Jesus actually says in Matthew 23:23. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of [b]the law[/b]: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should [b]have[/b] done without neglecting the others." (NASB.) First of all--and I just noticed this right now! --notice that Jesus says that he's talking about the Law! But we're not under the Law. Second, notice that Jesus says "should have done"--He puts it in the past tense. This is not a New Covenant command, but He's talking about what they should have done--how they should have kept the Law. But, once again, we are not under the Law. Regarding Abraham: note that that was the only recorded instance where Abraham gave "tithes." It was not a regular practice or custom of his. Even under the Law, tithing was not of income. Tithing was only of herds and crops. If you were a fisherman, a physician, a carpenter, etc. you did not tithe! So Jesus did not tithe, since He was a carpenter. Good one to use on SDAs, since they say Jesus is our example in all things. If Jesus didn't tithe, why should I? ;-) Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2004 |
I forgot to give the following link in my post above: http://askelm.com/tithing/index.asp This is a good book about tithing. They have several chapters online at once. Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 637 Registered: 3-2004 |
Our last DiscoveryE class at church was about giving. I researched the OT system of tithing with the Israelites. I brought that up when we were discussing the giving. I also said nothing is said in the NT about Christians tithing. The NT does say God loves a cheerful giver. The teacher agreed with me. I like my new church and that is one thing I do not agree with. I give cheerfully after I have prayed about it. Diana | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 67 Registered: 9-2004 |
Very interesting and insightful comments..I am very glad to see them.. Definitely something to think about! Good points made too! Who would have thought that tithing was OT! I didn't! But none the less I will always give cheerfully! I will be accepting a offering also, Please pass the basket around and do it willingly and cheerfully please! ;) I am non-denominational incidentally. And I guess really, anyone Not under the law at that time weren't even expected to abide by it, so that would still include us gentiles! Tracey |
