| Author | Message | ||
| Valm |
Violet, Spend your afternoon in other ways. Just ask you brother where in the Bible did he get his statement from? One of the things I have heard people on the FAF say over and over again is that they had in some point in their journey said Whitisms to non SDA Christians who innocently replied, "where is that in the Bible?" And after a while it sunk into them that the vast majority of what they believed could only be supported in the writings of EGW. Graciously and lovigly let your brother know that you now live under the GRACE and the FACT that it is only under JESUS' gift to you that you are saved. The most difficult part of talking with SDA loved ones is to guard your words with alot of LOVE. Sometimes the anger we have over the FALSE MESSAGE and all the pain it has brought comes through. Loved ones take this personally. Good luck to you. I hope your day is as sunny as it is here in the beautiful NW. Valerie | ||
| Max |
Valerie, Witticism: "a cleverly witty and often biting or ironic remark." --Webster's Tenth Whiticism: "a legalism mouthed by OFTAs mistakenly thinking it comes from Scripture, when it really comes from the writings of Ellen G. White." --Valerie's First You go, kid! MC | ||
| Cas |
violet, Just curious as to what information you emailed to your sister about why you left the church? Isn't it amazing how often we wonder if certain beliefs we have held onto are "Ellenisms" or found in the Bible! | ||
| Lori |
Hi, Violet, Here is ONE place that you will find "accountable for the light you have" Last Day Events pg. 218 paragraph 2 "We shall not be held accountable for the light that has not reached our perception, BUT FOR THAT WHICH WE HAVE RESISTED AND REFUSED. A man could not apprehend the truth which had never been presented to him and therefore could not be condemned for light he had never had." I have heard this one MANY times--scared me to death. My parents used it on me when I told them how I felt about Adventism. It also prevented me from sharing the Sabbath and diet issues with non-Adventist. --I knew they would reject it and I didn't want to be the one that caused them to be held accountable for it!-- You can access this website and easily search for phrases in EGW material. www.egwestate.andrews.edu Lori | ||
| Max |
Yo Cas! You think in sync! Elementalism: "Adherence to basic principles." Ellenism: "Adherence to grace plus works." God's making you dudettes sound good! MC | ||
| Max |
Lori, "We [James and Ellen] shall not be held accountable for the light that has not reached our perception, BUT FOR THAT [such as salvation by grace alone!] WHICH WE HAVE RESISTED AND REFUSED. A man [James?] could not apprehend the truth which had never been presented to him and therefore could not be condemned for light he had never had." --Ellen G. White, Last Day Events pg. 218 paragraph 2 (slightly annotated). Sorry, Sister Ellen, but that's not a good enough excuse for James' lifelong refusal to accept the gospel of grace unceasingly presented to him by his Methodist church upbringing. MC | ||
| Max |
Which prods me to wonder: How come James and Ellen never talked about how their parents reacted to their coocoo ideas and their before-marriage behavior? Hmmmm? | ||
| Max |
Bill Twisse! That "Gnosticism!" post -- in MY humble opinion at least -- comes from the best theological mind on FAFF. You go, dude (that's dude, not dud, not even close)! Blessings on all you do, and that, I know, is considerable! MC | ||
| Violet |
Basically I told them that because we could no longer support Ellen White being a prophet and the SDA orginization and Ellen White are inseperable that it would be hypocritical for us to maintain a membership. The issues at hand were: The Remnant church, Sabbath is the seal of God, Investigative Judgement, Atonement not complete at the cross. grace alone not sufficent for salvation and that the SDA baptisimal vows went beyond what the Bible required.(can't work at a 7/11 because you might sell a Bud or a pack of Marlboros, and have to accept spirit of prophecy (EGW). My brother e-mailed me back and said: Bottom Line: What is in your life that is more important than your commitment to God? And one of my friends e-mailed me and said "I wonder what your mother would of thought about this?" Major stab, my mother was a devout Adventist and died 3 years ago at age 70, we were best friends. But you know I held my head up and said "She would be proud of me for following the Lord where He was leading me" | ||
| Max |
Flower Violet, "Commitment to God?" Or commitment to a Grotesque, Godless, and Gnostic "Good"? | ||
| Richardhardison |
Mr. Twisse- You certainly went a long way in presenting your position on Calvinism/Augustinianism while calling a good many people widely regarded as solid Christians heretics. You may not realize it, but Augustine was deep into gnostocism, and he never recovered from it. His duality, divorcing spirit and flesh, completely colors his anthropology. His God is neo-Platonist to it's core (neo-Platonism is a later form of Greek Philosophy). He was deep into Greek philosophy having taught it for a period of time.He did not become a Christian until Ambrose reinterpreted the OT God, which he could not accept at face value. It has been shown many times over that Wesleyan Theology harks back to the primitive church. One can read the patristic authors and find nothing looking anything like Calvin's work until you get to Augustine, whose works are quite polluted with manmade trash. Luther and Melancthon parted company with Calvin as they matured in their understanding of scripture and their Theology later led to Wesley's and his descendants. You are almost correct on the meaning of heresy, however. The word comes from heiresis meaning "that which separates." Doctrinally it is a belief that when sincerely held separates from the grace of God. Heresy is not schism, it requires it. When a person holds that Christ is a created being (like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons) we must separate from them. Denominationalism, some call it sectarianism, actually maintains peace in the body of Christ by decreasing arguments that our sinful nature will not allow us to leave alone. | ||
| Billtwisse |
Dear Valerie, Before reading any of the other current posts, I wanted to respond to your observation: The reading level of your post per the Flesch Kincaid reading level is 12 and the readability is at 38.9 per Microsoft word. In my understanding of writing to the "general public" the target is a 5-8 with a readability at a 60. I tell you this because I believe you have a message that needs to be heard by all of us. Your message will only benefit a small population of us in this manner. It can be compared to speaking in tongues without an interpretor. I caution you on writing a literary work of art for the elite group who can keep up with you rather than humbly reaching all of God's people. Well, even Peter said that Paul's writings were hard to understand! I know that I'm not in any kind of league close to him! Tongues without an interpreter? Well, this is English and not Spanish, German, French, Italian, Akkadian, or Hebrew! What can I say? People will go to great lengths in attempting to understand difficult writing on how to obtain health, wealth, successful career, succesful marriage, sexual pleasure, and psychological happiness. I really don't think it is right to expect that spiritual discussion all be on an elementary level. That is one of the main objections I have to modern churchianity. Past generations expected to have to wrestle with difficult questions and historical arguments when listening to Christian teachers. The basic truths of God's Word and the gospel can be understood as clearly by the farmer as the theologian. That was an underlying principle of the Reformation. --Twisse | ||
| Billtwisse |
Dear Max, Thanks for the vote of confidence! I also invite contrary observations, as I know that others have historical information that I am lacking. Dear Richard Hardison, You probably think that we disagree on almost everything. Well, we don't! I have engaged in many a discussion with Reformed people and teachers in defending the very notion that you describe above: Augustine was heavily influenced by Gnostic and Greek philosophy. He was no different than any of the other 'fathers' in this regard. His pathetic view of the atonement, justification by human character, a tyrant God who sends redeemable people to eternal torture, water and food regeneration, and many other perverse teachings are doctrines of devils and merely the fruit of the great apostasy. I have been completely ostracized from Reformed discussions for opposing the core salvation theology of Augustine. Warfield says that he is a champion of grace-theology; I ask, where is the grace? But I ask the same question of all the 'fathers.' You can't find the Pauline doctrine of grace in any of them. It is all salvation by character; grace redefined as a strange work of God's transformation inside of us (not unto faith solely in the finished work of Christ--but unto 'neo-law' obedience!). I believe that sovereign grace--as opposed to free-will dogma--is the doctrine of the apostles and prophets. Augustine had a contribution only in drawing attention to this aspect of truth; one that had been ignored by the earlier fathers--who were also influenced by Gnostic ideas as he was. Even in reviving this aspect of grace teaching (certainly not justification by grace through faith), Augustine only recovered some measure of gospel truth. It was a 'low time' in terms of orthodoxy. The notion that Plato and the Greek philosophers believed in divine sovereignty (as opposed to free-will) cannot be supported for a moment. The dualism of Plato is not only related to his view of man--but especially his view of God. According to Plato, from God's hand comes only good--not evil. Evil is something originated by other beings and is outside of God's purposes. This is in direct contrast to the OT prophets and NT apostles. It is also the popular view of today. Whenever a tragedy in the world occurs, the liberal theologian is prominently featured on the news proclaiming God did not make this happen! I remember seeing this when the Lockerby, Scotland crash happened. A woman whose teenage son had died in the crash came on and opposed the revered teacher of theology! Her confession, "God gave him to me for many good years and then determined to take him to his glorious presence!" As Job says, God will bring all of us to death in his appointed time. On Wesleyanism--sure we disagree. The doctrines of Wesley on human autonomy are nothing but a revival of the positions of Justin, Thomas Aquinas (the theologian of 'darkness'--sorry, William Buckley, to oppose your philosophical hero!), the Council of Trent, and Arminius. --Twisse | ||
| Valm |
Bill, I am taking the time to read your expository. As I said I believe that the messages in it are well worth considering. I will have a lot of questions in a couple of days. However, again I would caution you to listen to my advice. Your post began with insulting people rather than drawing them in with the brotherly love you speak of. I agree with you that many people will go to great lengths to read literature that has no real true merit. However, I do not think that is the case with your audience here. I think you need to be in better touch with what your objective is. If it is to reach all people, then I would suggest that you make adjustments to your style. If your objective if to have a conversation with an "elite" few, continue to write in the manner in which you do. For myself I will avoid your "Shibboleths" and read the posts that are readable to me. With my own set of disabilities and the high demands of my life, I can not take the time to decode everyting I am reading. | ||
| Max |
Valerie, precious one, Chill out NOW! People are who they are. If they're going to change it is the Holy Spirit who is going to do the job. Let God be God. You know I love you in Christ, Max of the Cross | ||
| Valm |
Max, You are a sweet man, and for your sake I will chill out. Valerie | ||
| Max |
Dear Chyna on a new day, I don't want to upset any apple carts of faith here. I know you love the Lord, and I know you are a sincere believer in Scripture alone as the determinator of what we believe about Christ. The problem is this: Christians have assumed for a long time that the war in heaven as described in Revelation happened before the foundations of the earth were laid. Bzzzzzzzzzzt! Wrong! He was cast out WHEN CHRIST CAME TO EARTH. He was cast out of heaven by virtue of CHRIST'S ACTION ON THE CROSS! Sorry to have to be so blunt and undiplomatic, but let's witness Scripture itself: NIV Revelation 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman [Mary = church] who was about to give birth [Christmas], so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child [Jesus], who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne [ascention]. 6 The woman [church] fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7 And there was war in heaven [AD 30!]. Michael [NOT Christ. See Dan. 12:1] and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. [According to the text right here this happened AFTER the cross!] 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down [by virtue of Christ's action on the cross] -- that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "NOW [not before the foundations of the earth were laid] have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down [on the merits of Christ on the cross]. NIV text note to "dragon was hurled ... to the earth." "NOT the original casting of Satan out of heaven, but his FINAL exclusion -- an explanation of his intense hostility against God's people in the LAST days." | ||
| Violet |
Max, you just upset my apple cart I never heard of it that way. Where do you get this stuff. Certainly not from Amazing Facts. Violet | ||
| Max |
Applecart, schmapplecart! If you'll permit me, Violet, to read between the lines -- I think you're as pleased as a pussycat in the packinghouse. And rightly so! PRAISE GOD FOR THE CROSS! Enjoy Christ's "incomparably great power for us who believe" (Ephesians 1:19), MC | ||
| Lydell |
We had two interesting experiences this week. On Sunday we were sitting talking with some friends after church, when they were talking about differences between Mormon beliefs and Christianity. And someone turned to us and asked "so what's the big deal with the SDA's worshipping on Saturday?" Our answer, "they believe that worshipping on Sunday is the mark of the beast". The immediate response from several was a shocked, "no WAY! That's sick." ewww, yes it is actually. There really wasn't any need for further discussion. Then last night a lady told us that when she was searching for a church to attend, she went to a co-workers church, "for a revival meeting or something" ew. Yep, SDA. Our friend said she just didn't like the way it felt. Felt like the pastor didn't know enough about the Bible to be teaching. (Now is that perceptive, or what?!) And couldn't see how the fact of the 10 commandments being inside the ark instead of outside made a lick of difference to needing to keep them. I mean, this lady was really discerning! ha |
