| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Hi Kelly, I'll answer your questions in separate posts this time. ^^What is a lexicon?^^ A lexicon is a dictionary. A Greek-English lexicon is a dictionary of Greek words defined in English. If you feel you need one, you can get it at any good Christian book store or have it ordered for you at any book store or buy it on-line at Amazon.com. | ||
| Max |
^^As I don't know what kind of concordance or reference material to get can you offer some suggestions?^^ If I were you I would go to a good, large Christian book store and talk to their reference specialist. Make sure that the person with whom you talk really knows what s/he's talking about and isn't just a salesperson trying to "make a sale." The fact that a person may claim Christ doesn't necessarily mean s/he behaves as Christ would. | ||
| Max |
Don't go to an ABC = Christian Book Center = SDA Book and Bible House. | ||
| Max |
^^What kind of concordance are you using to find all this in the original language?^^ I'm not a Greek scholar, though I've taken Koine (New Testament) Greek in college and seminary. Right now I use an interlinear Greek-English New Testament and a Greek-English lexicon. I also rely on specialists in biblical languages and on the text notes in the New International Version Study Bible. | ||
| Max |
Oops. I should have posted: ^^Don't go to an ABC = Adventist Book Center = SDA Book and Bible House.^^ | ||
| Max |
Friend-in-Christ Kelly, ^^Part of me agrees that, "yes, these are different" and the other part says "how much difference can there really be between law and commandment in the original language. I see that they are based on different words but they are still very much the same."^^ I'm astounded and absolutely thrilled at how open minded you are to truth. I must admit -- you are certainly refreshing! I've been keenly disappointed so many times by Adventists who turned out to be "bewitched" people (Galatians 3) who weren't interested in discovering truth at all, but rather only in "being right." It's probably time to tackle some texts that are really difficult for our friends the Adventists to accept. One of the most difficult is (NIV): Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code [law of Moses], with its regulations [required circumcision, Sabbath-keeping, tithe-paying, ham-shunning], that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it [the old covenant law] away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities [evil angels], he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat [such as honey-baked ham] or drink [such as wine], or with regard to a religious festival [yearly Sabbath such as Passover], a New Moon [monthly Sabbath] celebration or a [weekly] Sabbath day. 17 These are a SHADOW of the things that were to come; the REALITY, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels [such as Michael the archangel] disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste [shrimp, lobster or clam chowder]! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self- imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. Hope this text isn't too harsh for you at this stage of your growing in grace. The point is not that Christ did away with the Ten Commandments. The point is that He fulfilled them by his life, death and resurrection. In so doing he summed up the entire 613 Old Testament laws in one commandment: "Thou shalt love." Love IS the fulfilling of the law. For if you love God you're not going to take his name in vain. And if you love your fellow human being you're not going to covet his possessions, steal from him, lie to him, cheat him, hate him, murder him, commit adultery with him, or do anything else that betrays the love of Christ written on your heart. Nor are you going to slip back into the legalism of the law by thinking that you need to be circumcised (or marry a circumcised man), keep the Sabbath, pay tithe, or shun ham in order to be saved. You're not even going to refrain from hating, murdering, fornicating, cheating, lying, stealing, etc., IN ORDER TO BE SAVED. But you ARE going to refrain from doing these things BECAUSE YOU ARE ALREADY SAVED in Christ Jesus our loving Lord. Blessings to you as you carry your cross in the kingdom of heaven that exists here and now (Luke 17:20-21), Max of the Cross | ||
| Valm |
Kelly, God Bless you. Valerie | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Kelly, My thought's were the same as Max's as I was reading your post and skimming the rest: "I'm astounded and absolutely thrilled at how open minded you are to truth. I must admit -- you are certainly refreshing!" You really are a breath of fresh air. IBC=Insured By Christ | ||
| Kelly |
I don't know what to say in response to your comment. I certainly don't feel like something "refreshing" or anything like a "breath of fresh air". I have felt quite the opposite. Something close to mentally unstable!! I'm not sure I know what to do with the information that is floating around in my head. It's all such a mess. And in a way I would rather go back to the "less informed" way things were. Max,I will have to get back to you on what you last posted. I'm not sure that I can process it right now. I really must decide where my stand is going to be on what I have learning already. I understand what you all are saying. But I haven't decided whether I believe it or not. And, thank you Denise for recommending the online Bible site. That was very informative and easy to use! | ||
| Kelly |
It's been easy to converse with you guys. I've heard all of this before for my "friend", but there were so many emotions between us. I was not open minded with her at all. Infact, I know that I hurt her deeply. After she initially told me about what she had found (truth) I treated her like a disease. I only responded to her letters, I never initiated anything and I still don't. Believe me, I'm anything but a "breathe of fresh air". Part of my open mindness is from the extreme respect that I have for my friend who left the church. But I can't be open minded with her. She has been patient and never seemed to have gotten angry with me, but I certainly have been with her. In a way, I guess I still am. She "messed" up my Adventist world. I was comfortable and she messed it up. And, now the conflict in my mind makes me feels like a mental case. The way I feel about my friend doesn't really seem to make much sense. I respect her but I also resent her. Pray for me, please. | ||
| Valm |
Kelly, You make more sense than you realize at the present time. Be patient and loving towards yourself. In God's good timing you will come through this. Yes I will pray for you. And remember you are God's own forever. Valerie | ||
| Max |
God love you, Kelly, The reason why you're a breath of fresh air, a cool drink of water, is your honesty. It's almost unbelievable! I admit I've questioned in my heart whether or not you were "a job put up" by "the bretheren." Believe me, this does and has happened -- I know from personal experience and from the experiences of close friends. I doubt that your friend is as hurt as you may think. For she surely believes that it is the Holy Spirit of the sovereign God who is leading you. So she has left your heart in God's capable hands. She doesn't sound codependent or dysfunctional to me. You certainly don't come across as a mental case. Quite the opposite. The true mental cases are those "bewitched" people (Galatians 3) who are in denial about truth. Remember, God loves you more than you can possibly love yourself, Max of the Cross | ||
| Kelly |
I'm assuming that when you say "a job put up by the brethren" that you mean someone sent from the SDA organization to plant "their" truth into the minds of whoever may post or read here. I haven't seen that, but I haven't read too many threads either. I have tried to read some of the other threads, the newer ones. You all seem to be very familiar with each other. Do you all live in the same area? And, Max, you said you went to seminary. Did you go to seminary before or after you left Adventism? Are you a minister now? I'm very curious to know what happened to you all that caused you to search for a different truth than Adventism. And how you found it? I'm struggling. If you can't tell!!! And, under the circumstances I don't know if it is worth the fight. In re-reading the scripture that Max quoted above Col. 2 the phrase the jumped out at me was: "Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen". Right now one of the "biggies" for me is the dissolving of my trust in E.W., it's been difficult for me to accept the fact that she lied about things. I read a little bit about her comments on the Law and the Covenants in PP. (I know I said I wasn't going to read "her") But what I found was a lie! She made the statement that Noah and his sons had the 10 commandments on the ark!!! Even I know that the "10 commandments" were not given until after Israel excaped from Egypt! I think it was on page 363, it's the first page of the chapter called the Law and the Covenant. But what I have now are an entire lifetime of confused facts about what is in scripture and what is in E.W.! I'll think that I have a rebuttal to some of your comments and then when I try to find it in scripture I can't. It's not in there! Thank you Max for taking the time to elaborate on what certain words meant in Col. 2. In comparting what you wrote with the things that Denise wrote and then checking them out on that blueprintbible website it has made things fairly clear. I'm just having a problem with the actual "OK, this is right, I accept this as the truth!" What happens if what you accept as truth is wrong? How do you know? Obviously things that I have been taught all my life are not correct, but I believed them and accepted them as truth. How do I know that I'm not just falling for a different kind of deception this time? If I'm going to make a decision that could turn my world completely upside down I need to know that it is Christ that I am following and not some kind of deceiving spirit! I'm having to ignore one of the "safety nets" of Adventist thought. The one that says you can't believe those people because they don't keep the Sabbath! That's why I rejected my friend. My frame of reference told me she was of the devil, a deceiving spirit. Is this what spiritual warfare is? | ||
| Patti |
Kelly, I am going to give you some advice that you probably don't want. Do not leave the SDA church unless it is for the sake of the Gospel. There is no other valid reason. Having said that, I do know some very Gospel-centered SDAs, people that I am happy to communicate with. They observe the sabbath, and I have no problem with it. I do not observe the sabbath, and they have no problem with it. They are vegans, I eat whatever is put in front of me (and then some!) with gratitude. And we have no problems with that. The secret: We are united in faith in Jesus Christ. We believe that there is absolutely nothing we can do to affect our salvation one way or another but to "merely" trust in the One Who has worked out our salvation completely. I put merely in quotes, because there is nothing "mere" about faith. It is not easy to keep believing in that which you have no tangible evidence of, (in fact, it is IMPOSSIBLE without the strength given us by the Holy Spirit) but we are promised that God is able to keep us unto that day. Kelly, let no one pressure you to leave the church. I disagree with much of what the church teaches, but I have seen so many people leave the SDA church because of her error and they turn around and start searching for yet another "true" church. There is no true church, Kelly, at least there is no denomination that contains the truth of God. There is only one True Church and it cannot be bound by bricks and mortar and by denominational boundaries. It is the great Church universal and triumphant comprised of those throughout the ages who trust in God's salvation. Study the Gospels, especially John, study Romans. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you." The Gospel is first and foremost. If you have the Gospel, you have everything. If you do not have the Gospel, you have nothing. I hope I have made myself clear. Do not worry about artificial church boundaries. God's Truth (Jesus Christ) is too grand and too magnificent to be monopolized by ANY human organization. Search for Him, and let everything else fall into place on its own. May God truly bless you with the knowledge and conviction of your acceptance by God--right now--for the sake of the awesome, once-for-all, all-sufficient saving work of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. Grace and peace always Patti | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Kelly;-)) Whoa! You have alot going on in your mind and a bunch of churning in your stomach! You truly are a "breath of fresh air" as you have shared so openly about what is going on. Well, anonymity can really help you express too. There are several that have posted their e-mails. If you are comfortable enough, e-write one of us and we can go from there. Mine is: christyoureternallife@hotmail.com Patti said: "There is no true church, Kelly, at least there is no denomination that contains the truth of God. There is only one True Church and it cannot be bound by bricks and mortar and by denominational boundaries. It is the great Church universal and triumphant comprised of those throughout the ages who trust in God's salvation." You mentioned that we seem to know each other quite well. Well, some of us do know each other in person and other's are on opposite ends of this country. We have a common bond that we share. We love the Lord and we believe that Christ died for our sins, past, present and future. We believe that there is nothing, no good work, that we can do to gain an entrance to heaven. We believe in Salvation By Grace Alone! We believe that when Christ said, "It is finished," he had us/me in mind. That is a very simplistic statement of, at least my belief, and this bond we share is called "The Family of God." I truly am glad that you have been posting and hope to hear from you. Maryann | ||
| Valm |
Dear Kelly, Everything you are saying about the turmoil you are feeling is so normal. And I wish to give you a cyber hug (((((((**)))))))) I agree with Patti that it is not the leaving of The Adventist church that is important. It is the understanding and thriving under the Gospel message that is important. Each and everyone's situation is different. I gradually left the Church for other reason's than careful study. I married a Catholic guy and we joined the Episcopalian faith. I could hardly imagine your position of possibly leaving the SDA faith and possibly destroying my marriage and hurting my children. I would encourage you to not focus on leaving Adventism but focus on understanding the Gospel. The rest will fall into place in God's timing. Take care God's Own Dear One. You will always be so no matter where you worship. Valerie | ||
| Max |
Morning Kelly, And Shabbat Shalom to you! I have an old friend from seminary who pastors one of the largest and wealthiest SDA congregations in the North American Division. He has long since rejected all the anti- christian aspects of Adventism. About the Sabbath he says, When you can mow your lawn on the Sabbath then you understand its new covenant meaning. About EGW he says, "She's a fraud." This man is grace-filled and knows the Lord. He hangs in there with his pastorate because he believes he can do more good as a missionary within Adventism than he could do if he left that pesky old paycheck behind. You can do the same. And it should be much easier for you to do than for him. He has to preach, baptize, counsel, meet Conference goals, etc., etc., etc. It is the Lord who is sovereign. Let him tell you what to do, not me or anyone else. Your salvation is eternal and safe in his hands. Jesus says, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; NO ONE can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I an the Father are one." NIV John 10:27-30. "But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall." KJV Malachi 4:2. Max of the Cross | ||
| Kelly |
THANK YOU!!!! | ||
| Kelly |
I need your help again. I'm stuck on several scriptures and I just can't get passed them. I tried using the www.blueletterbible. It cross referenced all the scriptures that I don't understand which was no help at all. Not to me anyway! Luke 16:17 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law" Sounds like the re-enforcement of the 10 commandments to me. It would be easier for the heaven and earth to disappear before the Law will disappear. I know it has the illustration of the divorce but that also sounds like you can't just get rid of the Law just because something better (grace) comes along. I don't understand. It cross referenced this text with Luke 21:33 "Heaven and earth shall pass away; but my words shall not pass away". Weren't the 10 commandments Gods words? And, I know you've been expecting this one!!! It's Mat. 5:18 "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." This verse re-enforces that same thing: The law does not go away until heaven and earth have gone away and heaven and earth are still here. These verses seem to contradict what I've been reading in Galatians 4. The analogy of Haggar and Sarah. Gal. 5:26 commands us to "keep on walking in the Spirit" and it says "if you are led by the Spirit then you are not under law". and Rom 8:3 "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering" Is this saying what I think it is? That the law was not able to save us and that God sent Christ to replace the law. What I've always been taught was that God sent Christ and then He gave us the Holy Spirit which enabled us to keep the law just like Christ did-perfectly. This chapter goes on to say that: "the righteous requirements of the law are met in us......who live according to the Spirit". Which goes back to if you are under the Spirit you are not under the law. Right? So, how do those first few texts agree with these last ones? Heaven and earth are still here and these texts seem to imply that the law will be here longer than heaven and earth. Everytime I seem to have a breakthrough in understanding something I seem to get trapped in something else!!! | ||
| Max |
Kelly, I don't have time to do justice to your questions right now. I will take one, the first one, and comment briefly. Perhaps others can also be of assistance to you. Luke 16:17 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law" The NIV text note to this verse says this: "The ministry of Jesus (introducing the new covenant era) was FULFILLMENT of the law (defining the old covenant era) in the most minute detail." Compare also Luke 21:33 and Matthew 5:17-18. There is a similar passage in Matthew: NIV Matthew 11:1213 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John." The terms "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" refer to the fact that believers do not have to wait till the Second Coming to go to heaven. Heaven begins now. Heaven is within us. Heaven is among us. (Luke 17:20-21.) The fact that it has been "forcefully advancing" since the time of John the Baptist means that it came with the coming of Christ. Thus, heaven is where Christ is. And Christ is in our hearts, therefore heaven is in our hearts. The fact that "forceful men lay hold of it" MAY mean that evil people were coming into the kingdom of heaven and taking advantage of it -- such as "shearing the sheep." At any rate, these and similar texts CANNOT mean that the Law of Moses is being upheld as a new covenant standard. Christ is the new covenant Standard, not the Law of Moses. The NIV text note to the term "Prophets and the Law" says the following: "The entire Old Testament prophesied the coming of the kingdom. John represented the end of the old economy." I think the NIV scholars could have used a better term than "the old economy." It's not spiritual enough. But the bottom line remains the same: The Law of Christ -- love in the heart -- is SUPERIOR to the Law of Moses. The Law of Christ SUPERCEDES the Law of Moses. The Law of Christ EXISTED BEFORE the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was added because of sin. It came 450 years AFTER the promise to Abraham. It was only temporary. The Sabbath was its seal. The Law of Christ -- love is the fulfilling of the law -- is more than just the new covenant. It is also the everlasting covenant, which the Law of Moses is not. And the Holy Spirit is its seal. Required Sabbath-keeping is NOT the seal of God, nor is Sunday-keeping the mark of the beast. It may take a looong time for that idea to subside in formers' minds. But subside and disappear it must. Must go now, Blessings to you, Kelly, child of God, eternally saved with a salvation that cannot be snatched out of the Good Shepherd's hand, Max of the Cross |
