| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Patti, why do you think "that the Gospel is not welcomed by many posters here"? Why do you think that it is "difficult to find a group people who are excited about being fully forgiven and reconciled to God because of Christ's saving act"? Why suppose "it is because your righteousness far exceeds mine"? Why compare the righteousness of one person against that of another? Why not simply recognize that Christ's righteousness is the same righteousness for one and for all? ^^May God bless you and lead us all into a deeper understanding of God's great mercy in forgiving us and accepting us sinful humans for the sake of the doing and dying of His Son, Jesus Christ. With love, Patti^^ Thank you, Patti, and God's mercy and blessings to you as well. And any time you choose to return, you will be welcomed back with love. Max of the Cross | ||
| Patti |
Val, I wonder just what we can agree upon if we cannot agree on the Gospel. I am sorry if I have come off as arrogant or condescending. I am just in search of fellowship with those, like myself, are hungering and thirsting for hearing the Gospel of our Lord. May God bless you, Patti | ||
| Patti |
Val, I wonder just what we can agree upon if we cannot agree on the Gospel. I am sorry if I have come off as arrogant or condescending. I am just in search of fellowship with those, like myself, are hungering and thirsting for hearing the Gospel of our Lord. May God bless you, Patti | ||
| Valm |
Patti, We are all hungering and thirsting for hearing the Gospel of our Lord. We all perceive it to be a little different than another. There are plenty of things about the Gospel we agree on. We do not agree on the transforming power of Christ. I do not either judge you or take offense on that point. I hope you are able to do the same. And may God bless you also Patti. Valerie | ||
| Max |
CHEAP GRACE HAS TURNED OUT TO BE UTTERLY MERCILESS TO OUR EVANGELICAL CHURCH This CHEAP GRACE has been no less disastrous to our own spiritual lives. Instead of opening up the way to Christ it has closed it. Instead of calling us to follow Christ, it HAS HARDENED US IN OUR DISOBEDIENCE. Perhaps we had once heard the gracious call to follow him, and had at this command even taken the first few steps along the path of discipleship in the discipline of obedience, only to find ourselves confronted by the word of cheap grace. Was that not merciless and hard. The only effect that such a word could have on us was to bar our way to progress, and seduce us to the mediocre level of the world, quenching the joy of discipleship by telling us that we were following a way of our own choosing, that we were spending our strength and disciplining ourselves in vain -- all of which was not merely useless, but extremely dangerous. After all, we were told, our salvation had already been accomplished by the grace of God. The smoking flax was mercilessly extinguished. It was unkind to speak to men like this, for such a cheap offer could only leave them bewildered and tempt them from the way to which they had been called by Christ. Having laid hold on cheap grace, they were barred for ever from the knowledge of costly grace. Deceived and weakened, men felt that they were strong now that they were in possession of this cheap grace -- whereas they had in fact lost the power to live the life of discipleship and obedience. THE WORD OF CHEAP GRACE HAS BEEN THE RUN OF MORE CHRISTIANS THAN ANY COMMANDMENT OF WORKS. --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.54-55 | ||
| Max |
DO WE NOT ALSO REALIZE CHEAP GRACE HAS TURNED BACK UPON US LIKE A BOOMERANG? The price we are having to pay today in the shape of the collapse of the organized Church is only the inevitable consequence of our policy of making grace available to all at too low a cost. We gave away the word and sacraments wholesale, we baptized, confirmed, and absolved a whole nation unasked and without condition. Our humanitarian sentiment made us give that which was holy to the scornful and unbelieving: We poured forth unending streams of grace. But the call to follow Jesus in the narrow way was hardly ever heard. Where were those truths which impelled the early Church to institute the catechumenate, which enabled a strict watch to be kept over the frontier between the Church and the world, and afforded adequate protection for costly grace? WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO ALL THOSE WARNINGS OF LUTHERíS AGAINST PREACHING THE GOSPEL IN SUCH A MANNER AS TO MAKE MEN REST SECURE IN THEIR UNGODLY LIVING? Was there ever a more terrible or disastrous instance of the Christianizing of the world than this? What are those three thousand Saxons put to death by Charlemagne compared with the millions of spiritual corpses in our country today? With us it has been abundantly proved that the sins of the fathers are visited upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. Cheap grace has turned out to be utterly merciless to our Evangelical Church. --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.54. | ||
| Max |
COST OF DISCIPLESHIP was first published in Germany in 1937 at the height of Hitler's power and influence over the German people, who thought themselves to be a Christian nation and yet who in the main backed Hitler and the Nazis. Little wonder that Bohnoeffer's iconoclastic book "rocked the church of his day and established for Bonhoeffer a worldwide following." | ||
| Max |
Bonhoeffer: WE ARE NO LONGER SURE THAT WE ARE MEMBERS OF A CHURCH WHICH FOLLOWS ITS LORD We shall try to find a message for those who are troubled by this problem, and for whom the word of grace has been emptied of all its meaning. This message must be spoken for the sake of truth, for those among us who confess that THROUGH CHEAP GRACE THEY HAVE LOST THE FOLLOWING OF CHRIST, and further, with the following of Christ, have lost the understanding of costly grace. To put it quite simply, we must undertake this task because we are not ready to admit that WE NO LONGER STAND IN THE PATH OF TRUE DISCIPLESHIP. We confess that, although our church is orthodox as far as her doctrine of grace is concerned, WE ARE NO LONGER SURE THAT WE ARE MEMBERS OF A CHURCH WHICH FOLLOWS ITS LORD. We must therefore attempt to recover a true understanding of the mutual relation between grace and discipleship. The issue can no longer be evaded. It is becoming clearer every day that the most urgent problem besetting our Church is this: How can we live the Christian life in the modern world?î --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.55 | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Exerpts from: Martin Luther Second Sunday in Advent: Luke 21:25-36 For since the Gospel, by which alone the troubled conscience can be 'comforted, is condemned, and in its stead there are set up doctrines of men, which teach us to lay aside sin and earn heaven by works; there must come a burdened and distressed conscience, a conscience that can find no rest, that would be pious, do good and be saved, that torments itself and yet does not know how to find satisfaction. Sin and conscience oppress, and however much is done no rest is found. By these the sinner becomes so distressed that he knows not what to do nor whither to flee. Hence arise so many vows and pilgrimages and worship of the saints and chapters for mass and vigils. Some castigate and torture themselves, some become monks, or that they may do more they become Carthusian - monks. These are all works of distressed and perplexed consciences, and are in reality the distress and perplexity of which Luke here speaks. He uses two words which suggest this meaning, a man gets into close quarters as though he were cast into a narrow snare or prison; he becomes anxious and does not know how he may extricate himself; he becomes bewildered and attempts this and that and yet finds no way of escape. Under such conditions he would be distressed and perplexed. In such a condition are these consciences; sin has taken them captive, they are in straits and are distressed. They want to escape but another grief overtakes them, they are perplexed for they know not where to begin -- they try every expedient but find no help. 19. It is indeed true that the masses do not become so afflicted, but only the few and generally the most sensible, scrupulous, and good-hearted individuals who have no desire to harm any one and would live honorable lives. It may be they foster some secret sin, as for example unchastity. This burdens them day and night so that they never are truly happy. But this is game for the monks and priests, for here they can practice extortion, especially with women; here people confess, are taught, absolved, and go whithersoever the confessor directs. Meanwhile the people are the Lord's token of the last day. To such the Gospel is light and comfort while it condemns the others. I found this entire Sermon to be of comfort. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Max |
WHY BONHOEFFERíS BOOK SHOOK THE CONSCIENCE OF GERMANY IN 1937 "PRAY FOR THE DEFEAT OF MY COUNTRY. Only in defeat can we atone for the terrible crimes we have committed." These searing words were said by prominent Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was among the few clergymen in Nazi Germany who dared to raise voice against Adolf Hitler. As early as 1933, Bonhoeffer exposed Hitler's political moves to undermine the constitutional rights of the German people, especially the Jews. He also believed that the church had a responsibility to offer unconditional aid to victims of state action, and took an active role in smuggling Jews into Switzerland. But Bonhoeffer's efforts and voice were stilled when he and his family were murdered by the Nazis in 1945. Bonhoeffer helped organize the Confessing Church which took an outspoken stand against the Nazi's assault on human rights and was instrumental in helping Jews find safe havens. In 1936, the leadership of the Confessional Church sent a memorandum to Hitler, saying: "When blood, race, nationality and honor are regarded as eternal values, the First Commandment obliges the Christian to reject this evaluation." Not too many days later, the leaders of the church were arrested. In 1937 more than 800 other pastors and prominent laymen of the Confessional Church were arrested, and hundreds more were thrown into jail over the next several years. In his monumental The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William L. Shirer writes: "It would be misleading to give the impression that the persecution of Protestants and Catholics by the Nazi State tore the German people asunder or even greatly aroused the vast majority of them. It did not. A people who had so lightly given up their political and cultural and economic freedoms were not, except for a relatively few, going to die or even risk imprisonment to preserve freedom of worship." The Germans in the 1930s were seduced by the glittering success of Hitler in creating jobs, generating a vibrant economy and restoring Germany's military might. "Not many Germans lost sleep over the arrests of a few thousand pastors and priests." Such was the apathy and moral indifference of the German people who empowered Hitler and fueled his military juggernaut that overran Europe. Excerpted and condensed from Holocaust Heroes, ©1998, webmaster@holocaust-heroes.com CAN THE CHRISTIAN PEOPLE IN AMERICA IN 2001 BE SO SURE WE ARE SO MUCH BETTER THAN WERE THE CHRISTIAN PEOPLE IN GERMANY IN 1937? Max of the Cross | ||
| Denisegilmore |
An Exhortation to good works; Martin Luther Romans 13:11-14 "The night is far spent, and the day is at hand." 15. This is equivalent to saying "salvation is near to us." By the word "day" Paul means the Gospel; the Gospel is like day in that it enlightens the heart or soul. Now, day having broken, salvation is near to us. In other words, Christ and his grace, promised to Abraham, are now revealed; they are preached in all the world, enlightening mankind, awakening us from sleep and making manifest the true, eternal blessings, that we may occupy ourselves with the Gospel of Christ and walk honorably in the day. By the word "night" we are to understand all doctrine apart from the Gospel. For there is no other saving doctrine; all else is night and darkness." God Bless, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Max, I don't think we can be too sure as your question asks above. There is ample apathy in the Christians of today. God Bless you Max, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Exerpts, Martin Luther Luke 2:15-20 9. The second fruit is the unity in the spirit. For it is the nature of Christian faith to unite hearts into one, that they be of one mind and of one will, as Psalm 68, 6 says: "God, the Lord, Christ our God, setteth the solitary in families." St. Paul speaks of the unity of the Spirit in many places as in Rom. 12,18; 1 Cor. 12,4; and Eph. 4,3, where he says: "Be ever diligent that ye be of one mind, of one will." Such unity is not possible apart from faith, for every one is well pleased with his own ways, therefore is the land, as the proverb runs, full of fools. Here one sees in his own experiences how the various orders, callings, and sects are divided among themselves. Every one esteems his order, his calling, his character, his work, his plans the best, and the right road to heaven. He disparages the things of others and rejects them; as we see at present among the priests, monks, bishops and all who profess to be spiritual." | ||
| Max |
COST OF DISCIPLESHIP ATTACKS "CHEAP GRACE" OF NAZIFIED LUTHERAN CHURCH IN GERMANY "It was during this time of [Bonhoeffer's] deep involvement with the Finkenwald seminary community that he wrote Nachfolge (The Cost of Discipleship) (1937) an exposition of the Sermon on the Mount in which he attacked the "cheap grace" that was being dispensed by the State Church, in easy forgiveness of Christians acting in cooperation with the evil of the Nazi movement." --Miles H. Hodges, The Spiritual Pilgrim Copyright© 1999. http://www2.cybernex.net/~mhodges/biograph y/bonhoeffer.htm | ||
| Max |
BONHOEFFER OPPOSES PROTESTANT NAZI SYMPATHIZERS "In 1933 the leader of the radical, racialist Nazi Party, Adolf Hitler, became chancellor and then dictator of Germany. In power, the Nazi movement sought to create a new totalitarian state: the Third Reich. Bonhoeffer saw Nazism to be a counter-religion and a danger to Christianity. He became an active participant in the dispute which broke out in the Protestant churches between those who sympathized with Nazism and those who sensed that the new politics threatened the integrity of the church. In October 1933 Bonhoeffer moved to England to be pastor to two German-speaking parishes in the London area. Here he searched for allies and met his greatest British advocate, Bishop Bell of Chichester." From "IN AN AGE OF TYRANNY," http://www.westminster-abbey.org/Martyrs/diet rich_bonhoeffer.htm | ||
| Max |
HITLER WAS A CHEAP-GRACE CHRISTIAN Hitler's Religious Beliefs and Fanaticism People often make the claim that Adolph Hitler adhered to Atheism, Humanism or that his religion involved ancient Nordic pagan mythology. None of these fanciful and wrong ideas hold. Although one of Hitler's henchmen, Alfred Rosenberg, did undertake a campaign of Nordic mythological propaganda, Hitler and most of his henchmen did not believe in it (see the last part of this text). Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler's "evil" have eliminated Hitler's god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that his God equals the same God of the Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include God and Providence but also Fate, Social Darwinism, and politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the ALMIGHTY CREATOR: *by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the LORD.*" Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. He got raised as a Catholic and went to a Catholic school. Much of his philosophy came right out of the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. The German Christian Social movement remarkably resembles the Christian Right movement in America today. Hitler's anti-Semitism grew from his Christian education. Christian Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to German Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests, and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, "On the Jews and their Lies," Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther. Hitler did not have to prove his belief in God, as so many American Christians do now. He did not have to justify his Godly belief against an Atheist movement. He took his beliefs for granted just as most Germans did. He did not have to preach God to his audience. His thrust aimed at politics, not religion. Although, through his politics he had wanted to create a German Reich Church to instill dogmatic beliefs in the German populace. Future generation should always remember that Adolph Hitler could not have come into power without the support of Christian believing people. -------------------------------------------------------------- Compiled by Zardoz9 (AOL), Zardoz (Freethinkers BBS), Please distribute this text freely. Freethinkers BBS, (305) 821-1909, Miami, Florida http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/hitler/hitler 1.htm --------------------------------------------------------------- Dear friends, I do not necessarily agree with everything in the above statement. It needs to be checked out further. Read it and make up your own mind. In all things may God bless, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
LUTHER: JUSTIFICATION IS BY FAITH ALONE, BUT NOT BY FAITH THAT IS ALONE We forget that God requires perfect obedience to his law, and if we fail to obey him perfectly, then we're going to have to look elsewhere for a way to get our salvation. That's where Christ comes in. Christ makes his merit available to us. When I trust him by faith, then his righteousness becomes my righteousness in the sight of God. So it's his good work that saves me and that saves you -- not our good works. Nevertheless, in a response of gratitude we are called to obey. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Martin Luther taught that justification is by faith alone. But he expanded the concept by saying that justification is by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. A person who is truly trusting Christ and resting on Christ for redemption receives the benefits of Christ's merit by faith. But if that person has true faith, that true faith will manifest itself in a life of obedience. Simply put: I get into heaven by Jesus' righteousness, but my reward in heaven will be distributed according to my obedience or the lack of it. --R.C. Sproul from ìWhat Do Good Deeds Have to Do with Salvation?î in NOW, THATíS A GOOD QUESTION! published by Tyndale House http://www.fni.com/heritage/sep97/Sproul.html | ||
| Max |
BY FAITH ALONE, BUT NOT BY A FAITH THAT IS ALONE We are justified by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. It is imperative that we keep both the teaching of Paul and James in balance. We cannot fall into works righteousness, trying to earn merit before God and thus justify ourselves. But then we cannot fall into antinomianism (lawlessness) by living without fruit. When Paul says that we are not justified by works, he means that we do not earn any merit before God by our works. When James says that we are justified by works, and not by faith only, he is referring to the evidence of our faith before men. In other words, our faith is justified (i.e., shown to be true faith) in the eyes of those who see our works. True faith is the working out of love. Anyone who says they have faith, but does not have the fruit of faith (or works) does not have true faith. While it is necessary to remember that we must live by faith, it is just as important to remember that "faith without works is dead." From TABLETALK: Interactive Bible Study Magazine http://www1.gospelcom.net/ligonier/tt/ttsample /ds24.html | ||
| Max |
GOOD WORKS DON'T JUSTIFY, NOR DOES DEAD FAITH SAVE When James declares that faith is dead if it is alone, how could one object? Luther himself said that we were justified by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. This is James point: Anything that you call faith that does not love or serve is not really justifying faith, but is dead. Of course, this faith-- dead faith, cannot save anybody. Only living, active, working faith is the genuine article. However, it is not the fruit of faith that justifies. It does not justify in acting, working, loving, or serving, but in believing and receiving Christs gift of righteousness. The faith that Paul described is not the faith the James sees in those antinomians who thought that faith was nothing more than an assent to certain facts. Michael S. Horton, Justification By Faith Alone: Vital Now and Always, ©1994 Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals http://www.alliancenet.org/pub/articles/horton.j ustification.html Dr. Michael Horton is the vice chairman of the Council of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, and is associate professor of historical theology at Westminster Theological Seminary in California. Dr. Horton is a graduate of Biola University (B.A.), Westminster Theological Seminary in California (M.A.R.) and Wycliffe Hall, Oxford (Ph.D.). Some of the books he has written or edited include Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, Beyond Culture Wars, Power Religion, In the Face of God, and most recently, We Believe. | ||
| Max |
REFORMERS WORRIED ABOUT LEGALISM, CATHOLICS ABOUT LAWLESSNESS When the Reformers declared that we are justified by faith not by works, the Roman Catholic Church called the Reformation leaders "antinomian." The Catholic Church was concerned that if it were taught that we are saved solely by God's grace then the motivation to pursue holiness would be lost. The Reformers were sensitive to the Catholic Church's concern, and they declared that we are "justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone." In other words, you are saved by the grace of God from first to last, you are justified by faith alone; but God works out your redemption by transforming your life from one of sin to one of holiness. R.C. Sproul from TABLETALK http://www.gospelcom.net/ligonier/tt/tt-05-96/tt subds-05-22-96.html |
