| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Thank you Patti for the link. Also for the information because I certainly was beginning to wonder about or had questions about certain things. I will go do more reading. Now, I think in all fairness, we should give ellen white the same curteousy as far as timing. Don't you? I am just curious, no agenda in my mind. God Bless you and I hope year 2001 is a much much better year for you. Denise | ||
| Max |
Luther: ģIT BECOMES NECESSARY THAT SINCERE PREACHERS CULTIVATE THE DOCTRINE OF GOOD WORKS AS DILIGENTLY AS THE DOCTRINE OF FAITHī Patti and Denise, Luther never deviated from his bedrock teaching that after they have embraced the pure doctrine of faith all Christians are to PRACTICE GOOD WORKS. Example from his Commentary on Galatians: VERSE 14. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. It is customary with Paul to lay the doctrinal foundation first and then to build on it the gold, silver, and gems of GOOD DEEDS. Now there is no other foundation than Jesus Christ. Upon this foundation the Apostle erects the structure of GOOD WORKS which he defines in this one sentence: "THOU SHALT LOVE thy neighbour as thyself." In adding such precepts of love the Apostle embarrasses the false apostles very much, as if he were saying to the Galatians: "I have described to you what spiritual life is. Now I will also teach you what truly GOOD WORKS are. I am doing this in order that you may understand that the silly CEREMONIES of which the false apostles make so much ARE FAR INFERIOR TO THE WORKS OF CHRISTIAN LOVE." This is the hall-mark of ALL FALSE TEACHERS, that they not only pervert the pure doctrine but also FAIL IN DOING GOOD. Their foundation vitiated, they can only build wood, hay, and stubble. Oddly enough, the FALSE APOSTLES who were such earnest champions of good works NEVER REQUIRED THE WORK OF CHARITY, SUCH AS Christian love and the practical charity of A HELPFUL TONGUE, HAND, AND HEART. Their only requirement was that circumcision, days, months, years, and times should be observed. They could not think of any other GOOD WORKS. THE APOSTLE [PAUL] EXHORTS ALL CHRISTIANS TO PRACTICE GOOD WORKS AFTER THEY HAVE EMBRACED THE PURE DOCTRINE OF FAITH, because even though they have been justified they still have the old flesh to refrain them from doing good. THEREFORE IT BECOMES NECESSARY THAT SINCERE PREACHERS CULTIVATE THE DOCTRINE OF GOOD WORKS AS DILIGENTLY AS THE DOCTRINE OF FAITH, for Satan is a deadly enemy of both. Nevertheless faith must come first because without faith it is impossible to know what a God-pleasing deed is. --Martin Luther, COMMENTARY ON THE EPISTLE TO THE GALATIANS (1535) by Martin Luther. Translated by Theodore Graebner (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1949). Chapter 5, pp. 216-236. Galatians 5:14-26. Project Wittenberg. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Thank you Max, Now it makes sense or more sense to me. We are His workmanship unto Good Works. This I am paraphrasing but you know what Scripture I am speaking of. What good news all this is, everyday it gets better and better. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Patti |
Denise, As you can see, everything that I say on here will be contradicted. I will not argue. I only ask you not to take my word (or anyone else's) for anything. The facts are openly available for anyone who truly desires to know them. And the fact is that Luther grew and matured just like any other Christian. (I give you as evidence his belief in the necessity of baptism for salvation and his belief in the immaculate conception of Mary as examples.) His 95 theses were only the beginning of his journey from the bondage of the RCC to the complete freedom of the Gospel. The Luther of 1540 is not the same Luther of 1520. Just as with any other Christian writer and teacher, all that Luther says must be examined in the light of the Gospel. And Luther, himself, would be the first to agree with this statement. God bless you in your study. Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| Max |
Patti, Of course Luther grew in his understanding. And his growth only strengthened his understanding that Christians who are born from above change in the direction of God's leading. His growth did not weaken that understanding. Rather, it strengthened it. The same was true for Paul. After his "road to Damascus" experience he grew and grew. He didn't shrink and shrink. Read his wonderful statement in 2 Corinthians 3:16-18. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, ARE BEING TRANSFORMED into his likeness with EVER-INCREASING glory, which comes form the Lord, who is the Spirit. To deny that the Christian enjoys a changed life is to deny all the wonderful blessings that we receive in addition to the trials and tribulations. Freedom, for example, as in the text immediately above. Max of the Cross | ||
| Valm |
I am coming over to this thread from the Sabbath thread as what Patti and I are discussing over there is probably more suited to over here. I think Patti's greatest concern is that people start out accepting the ALL sufficiency of Christ's gift and gradullay stray from the concept with the "works thing". And I do see a danger in becoming self righteous with the changes that God has given in our lifes. But how can we on the other hand deny these changes? I know alot of "good" people who are not Christians so yes it is possible to be "good" and not be a Christian. Have any of you walked into a place and palpably felt the flow of God's energy around a given person? You just knew that they were deeply connected with the spirit? Well that is waht I am talking about. I know people like that. And I wish that in my life now. It has nothing to do with getting to heaven, it has to do with being in the kingdom of heaven now. This is all about relationships and responding to them. A person who thinks works is what it takes to get into the kingdom for example, has a completely different response when the mess up. They are distressed at their failure and even wish to seek blame on others for it. Because failure represents rejection from God to them. No matter how hard they try on their own, they aren't going to do it. Let us contrast that with a person who believes that Christ only Christ is their salvation. When they mess up they have a contrite but unthreatened heart. They will be more able to see the problem and work on it at its true source. The Spirit begats the behavior rather than the Behavior attracting the Spirit. Am I making sense or just babbling? Lets use the example of functional parenting. My kid messes up. Never during the time of the mess up should I allude to the fact that his messing up will cause a withold of my love for him. That is a constant. If I wish for him true change I will facilitate it without rejection and withholding love. His development is from within and my love and support is the constant that facilitates this. How much more then is God's to us? So Patti, I appreciate your deep concern that we do not go full circle and leave the truth we have come to love. But at the same time, Max has very good points in taking the full benefit of Christianity by allowing wonderful changes in our lives to take place now. | ||
| Valm |
I am posting these wonderufl lyrics known by some as St. Patrick's breastplate. I think they apply. I hope they are enjoyed by some: I bind unto myself today the stong Name of the Trinity, by invocation of the smae, the Three in One, and One in Three. I bind this day to me for ever, by power of faith, Christ's Incarnation; his baptism, in the Jordan river; his death on cross for my salvation; his bursting from the spiced tomb; his riding up the heavenly way; his coming at the day of doom;I bind unto myself today. I bind unto myself today the power of God to hold and lead, his eye to watch, his might to stay, his ear to hearken, to my need; the wisdom of my God to teach, his hand to guide, his shield toward; the word of God to give me speech, his heavenly host to be my guard. Christ be with me, Christ within me, Christ behind me, Christ before me, Christ beside me, Christ to win me, Christ to comfort and restore me. Christ beneath me Christ above me, Christ in quiet, Christ in danger, Christ in hearts of all that love me, Christ in mouth of friend and stranger. I bind unto myself the Name, the strong Name of the Trinity by invocation of the same, the Three in One, and One in Three. Of whom all nature hath creation, eternal Father, Spirit Word: praise to the Lord of my salvation, salvation is of Christ the Lord. I have typer's cramp, a walk to take and a house to clean. I will check in later all. God Bless Valerie | ||
| Patti |
Thank you, again, Val, for your kind words. However, a theology that focuses on the believer in any way is, by definition, not focused on Jesus Christ. How can we claim that what we produce is a result Christ is working in us when everything that we do is still tainted with sin? Did the disciples/apostles EVER testify to their changed lives? Their testimony was, universally, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Luther said when the church emphasizes moral regeneration, it inevitably weakens, but when it boldly preaches the Gospel of salvation by the righteousness of Another, it thrives. SDAism emphasizes the regeneration of the believer, as does the RCC. There is no good Catholic or Adventist scholar who would claim that we are saved by anything other through faith in Jesus Christ. The difference between the Reformational and the SDA/RCC gospel is that the reformers loudly proclaimed that our salvation is by faith ALONE. The righteousness that saves us is an alien righteousness; we are ACCOUNTED righteous when we believe in Jesus Christ. FAITH IN CHRIST PLUS NOTHING saves us. We do not get any more righteous or holy on this earth than when we first accept by faith Christ's subsitutionary work for us. The SDA/RCC gospel claims that we are saved by faith plus...(faith that works in love). Both gospels admit that we are justified by faith, but then we must "work out" that salvation; our sanctification (fitness for heaven) comes of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit IN us. The result of this is that no one can be completely certain of his salvation; for example, if one does not show enough "good works" in one's life, then one never really had a saving faith to begin with. It is an insidious and deadly legalism that most of Christendom accepts without batting an eye BECAUSE IT SOUNDS GOOD AND PIOUS. Max will contradict me on this, but, again, I tell you that the facts are out there for anyone who truly seeks them out. I recommend Brinsmead's "Judged by the Gospel" as an excellent dissertation on how the SDA church in reality touts a Catholic gospel. You say that you did not agree with Ellen's statement that I quoted, below. When we behold the purity of the Lamb, how can we do anything but bemoan our sinfulness? The more clearly we see the magnificent saving work of Jesus Christ, the more we are going to see our unworthiness, necessarily. Christianity is not about changed lives; it is about a finished work of salvation that can be claimed by anyone who trusts in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is our righteousness. He is our full and complete salvation: justification, sanctification, and glorification--one big ball of wax that is ours instantly and completely when we believe in Him. This is our Gospel message. It is historical and objective and unchanging. If our witness is to our own works, then it is neither finished nor perfect nor stable. And, since every person's walk of character growth is different, it varies from person to person. Also, when we slip and fall, as we surely will, what happens to our "testimony"? It is invalidated because we could never claim that Jesus working in us caused us to sin! Not so with the Gospel. The Gospel is stable, it is universal, it is unchanging, it is everlasting. It means the same to every person: Reconciliation with God because of the saving work of our Lord Jesus Christ. | ||
| Patti |
In short, the Gospel is not about our changed lives; it is about the One Perfect Life. | ||
| Max |
Question: Do grace recipients experience something within them that those of the world don't? Answer: Absolutely! Paul, for instance, in 1 Corinthians 2:7-10 NIV: "We speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: 'No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him'-- but God HAS REVEALED IT TO US by his Spirit!" Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Qustion: ^^Did the disciples/apostles EVER testify to their changed lives?^^ Answer: Absolutely! Hear Paul in NIV 2 Corinthians 3:18: "We ... ARE BEING TRANSFORMED into his likenesss with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." To be "transformed" is an even stronger spiritual reality within the believer than to be "changed." Human philosophy and theory is fine in its place, but is no substitute for the Word of God. -MC | ||
| Max |
^^The Gospel is not about our changed lives; it is about the One Perfect Life.^^ According to Scripture alone, the gospel PRODUCES changed lives, else it is a false gospel. "The One Perfect Life" by faith alone IS our righteousness. And the good works that such faith inevitably produces is only our testimony that His righteousness is real. NIV Ephesians 2:8-10: "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast. For WE ARE GOD'S WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus to DO good works, which God prepared in advance for us to DO." -MC | ||
| Valm |
Patti and Max, I just agree with you both. Patti you carry the gospel message with a passion. It is wonderful to hear that it is about what Christ did for us not what we do for him. I agree wholeheartedly. Max, you rejoice in the changes that God brings to our lives and you support it beautifully with the Bible. I also enjoy being a recipient of those changes. Ephesians 2:8-10 articulates it beautifully. Salvation is not a merit badge we earn, but we do blossom under it, don't we. And I just Love knowing that I am GOD'S Artwork in progress!!!!! Patti, it is wonderful that we have the rock of stability in the unchanging message of God's gift to us. We are all on a different journey. Some of us are growing in one way and some in others. It is not for us to decide or judge. But I do take joy as I see someone growing in GRACE. Again, haven't you walked into a room and just felt the energy of someone who is lit up by God? I have, it is a testimony. It may not be a constant in that persons life but it is a testimony on that given day. I can only conclude by stating that in my belief I do not espouse to a faith plus interpretation of the Gospel message. I just enjoy the day to day miracles that faith brings to my life as I respond to it. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^A theology that focuses on the believer in any way is, by definition, not focused on Jesus Christ.^^ I agree. While Paul is focusing on Jesus Christ, who is in heaven, he says, "Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize [not salvation, but seeing Jesus in heaven face to face] for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. "Pressing on" and "straining toward" -- images from Greek foot racing -- are metaphors for holy or dedicated living. So living a holy life is NOT focusing on self, but it is focusing on Christ Jesus who is in heaven. -MC | ||
| Max |
Patti, Scripture never says, ^^Our witness is to our own works.^^ Scripture says our works are our witness to Christ's salvation in our lives. Scripture says, further, love is the fulfilling of the law. You would not say, would you, that we should not keep Christ's single summing-up Commandment, "Thou shalt love," because Christ has already fulfilled that Command- ment for us on the cross? -MC | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^[The disciples/apostles'] "testimony was, universally, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.^^ Absolutely! By their works of love! --MC | ||
| Max |
^^The Reformers loudly proclaimed that our salvation is by faith ALONE.^^ By faith alone that fulfilled Christ's Single Commandment written on their hearts: "Thou shalt love!" | ||
| Max |
^^We do not get any more righteous or holy on this earth than when we first accept by faith Christ's subsitutionary work for us.^^ True, and that perfect subsitutionary righteousness, perfect subsitutionary holiness and perfect subsitutionary sinlessness actually does have effects in our everyday lives. If it doesn't, if it produces nothing, then that nothingness is absolute proof that Christ NEVER knew us. | ||
| Max |
^^The righteousness that saves us is an alien righteousness; we are ACCOUNTED righteous when we believe in Jesus Christ.^^ How true! And what kind of RESPONSE does that alien righteousness produce WITHIN us believers? Scripture says that a good tree -- a tree WITH the sap of Christ's alien righteousness running through its branches -- WILL bear good fruit. Such a tree Christ knew from before the foundations of the earth were laid. Scripture says, as well, that a bad tree -- a tree WITHOUT the sap of Christ's alien righteousness running through its branches -- WILL bear bad fruit. Such a tree Christ also knew from before the foundations of the earth were laid. | ||
| Max |
^^FAITH IN CHRIST PLUS NOTHING saves us.^^ How sweet is this truth! For such a faith in X+0 is a faith that in the life of the believer inevitably results in... ..."whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lopvely, whatever is admirable...." Philippians 4:8 NIV. For "by their fruits shall ye know" those who have such faith. |
