| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Yes, you were MC. That's okay though cause I emitted Nazarene rays of light for several months. :) God Bless you, DTB | ||
| Ken |
Dan Snyder: Are you the same Dan that ministered the East Mesa church in Arizona? Ken | ||
| Max |
Hey, buddy Ken! Nice to hear from you again. Remember we used to go around in circles as in a square dance. Miss you. -MC | ||
| Max |
Korinna, \^^I don't think i need to keep a sabbath but feel like i should, and out of fear. I just want to be with Jesus when he comes again:(^^ If it's all about fear, how can it all be about love? Perfect love casteth out fear. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Korinna, Welcome!;-) Been busted for a week but hope to be back on line with my own 'puter in a week or so. Hope to get to know ya then;-) | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken!!!!!! Hey! How are you, ya old codger. (I can call you that since we are the same age!) I'm still waiting to hear your answer to, "Who is Jesus?" Wahhhhhhh, I'm about to breath my last and you are the last person I will ever see this side of eternity. I want to go to heaven but I need to be introduced to my Savior!!!!! Please help! Your ol' buddy-ette.....Maryann:):):) | ||
| Valm |
Glad to see you back on line Maryann. Valerie | ||
| Jtree |
My Friends at FAF, Recently I have been given this task from some of our FRIENDS in the Yahoo clubs (BTW they excommunicated me from the SDANET Chat club, for posting the FAF meeting info...hahahaha.. I don't care..do you? Here is what was recently presented to me. "I would like you to present the best argument from scripture as to why you would have us believe that the Sabbath was done away with at the cross. Now I don't want any smoke and mirrors arguements, I want a plain thus sayeth the Lord. I find your arguements the best way to teach people about the sabbath and Gods love for us. Don't wimp out here, pull out all the stops and lets do some learning!" May I get some HELP here? | ||
| Max |
Joshua of the Rock! Hmmmm . . . . ^^they excommunicated me from the SDANET Chat club, for posting the FAF meeting info.^^ Because the truth cuts like a sword? Will the Yahoo! clubs allow you to import from FAFF? If so, you're welcome to use any of my posts. I have chosen not to spread myself thinner than FAF. -MC | ||
| Therese |
Patti, Thanks for your study on the Sabbath and Hewbrews 4. It was helpful. I have a question for you and anyone else. All the churches I have encountered endorse observing the 10 commandments as a standard by which to live a righteous life, a standard by which to judge sin, and and behavior which is pleasing to God. They all teach members to keep the 10 commandments. They all believe each commandment has a literal and a spiritual application. (e.g., thou shall not kill - don't physically kill someone(literal application) and don't harbor anger and grudges in your heart (spiritual application)). What I am deducing from former SDAs is that 9 commandments have both literal and spiritual applications. But,the 4th commandment only has a spiritual application (salvation rest) and the literal application (keeping a literal 7th day holy in the way the commandment says to) is not required. Why doesn't the 4th command have a literal as well as a spiritual application like the other 9 commandments? I know the Sabbath is an old testament sign, but many things in the bible have dual meanings and applications. Thanks for your help. Therese | ||
| Patti |
Dear Therese, I understand what you are saying. I cannot speak for "formers" as a whole as most people on here do not agree with most of what I say, but I can tell you my perspective. The New Testament concept of "law"--all law is far different from the perspective of most Christians today. The purpose of the law under the Old Covenant was to supervise us until grace should appear. Galatians has a wonderful passage concerning the purpose of the law. It merits a re-reading on a weekly basis. Galatians 2:15 "We who are Jews by birth and not `Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. Salvation does not come of law. We are not only not under the jurisdiction of 9 of the 10 commandments, we are not under ANY law: the "Big 10," the sacrificial law, the ceremonial cleanliness laws, the entire Torah, EVEN the "Sermon on the Mount" law given by Jesus Christ Himself.* Salvation can never come of law, ANY law. 17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" Self explanatory, I believe.... 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? The Galatians were trying to enforce the Judaic laws upon their fellow believers. They insisted that circumcision was still necessary. Paul comes down on them mercilessly for their attempts to "uphold" the law. 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. Paul goes on to describe what it is to be children of the promise. 10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse (!), If we think that observing the law is accomplishing anything toward our salvation, we are fooling ourselves, just as the Galatians were. If any part of our assurance has anything to do with our observing any law, then we place ourselves under a curse! The curse is this: for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." If we choose to place ourselves under law, we cannot "pick and choose" which part of the law we wish to observe. We cannot decide to choose to abstain from unclean meats but reject the cleanliness laws; we cannot choose to keep the sabbath, but reject observing Passover and the other feasts; we cannot choose to to tithe, but reject the sacrificial system. You see, Therese, salvation is not about law, nor is it about what happens in us. Salvation is about the One who has perfectly accomplished all necessary for your salvation: He perfectly fulfilled the law, so that, by faith, His perfect law-keeping becomes yours; He paid the wages of your sin to that by His blood your sins are forgiven. 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." We live, spiritually, by faith. Faith is not based upon tangible evidence, but upon things that we cannot physically discern. We trust in something we cannot see; we depend upon an alien righteousness, a righteousness in which we had no part in creating, which is credited to us. We are righteous by faith only, never in our sinful human flesh until we see Christ face to face. 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." One may hear Christians say that they keep the commandments by faith. This verse denies this. The law has nothing to do with faith. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. We are saved, not because of our righteousness, but because of a promise God made to Abraham and his seed. God promised; our duty is to believe. 15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. What a wonderful text! The promises were made to the seed of Abraham, which is Christ. Is Christ worthy to receive all of the blessings promised to Abraham? Of course! Therefore we can know that these promises are ours also when we are in Christ. Not only is His perfect life and atoning death credited to us when we believe, but also the inheritance of the promises made to Abraham are ours when we believe. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. Even the giving of the law could not set aside the promise. The Promise existed before the law; the law was added because of transgression, to show us our need for the Promised grace in Jesus Christ. When the law was added, transgression mulitiplied. Just like when a child does something that a parent has not yet told him not to do it is not disobedience. The more rules a child has, the more opportunity to be disobedient there is. So when the law was given, all 613+ laws, sin multiplied exponentially. Not that there was not sin before the law, but where there is no law, just like with your child, transgression is not accounted. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. Salvation comes of a promise; a promise made to Abraham several millenia ago fulfilled in Jesus Christ. 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was our custodian until the Promise was revealed. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. I hope I have done a little more than just confuse you, Therese. This is not easy to understand. And there are a handful of people who will say that I am proposing reveling in sinful living. While we cannot help living sinfully, because our human flesh is permeated with sin, we should never revel in our sinfulness. We long to be released from these bodies of death just as much as Paul did. But we must acknowledge our inability to please God with anything that we do, say, think, etc. We must acknowledge our sinfulness and our helplessness to help ourselves, or we will never see our great need of a Savior. Remember, in the parable, the person who "went down to his house justified" was not the one who thanked God for his changed life; it was the one who smote his breast and acknowledged his depravity and begged God for mercy. We can do no better in this life. We live as sinners, totally and continually dependent upon the great mercy of our God in forgiving our sins and accepting us for the sake of His Son Jesus Christ, Who alone is worthy of honor and glory and blessing. Grace and peace always, Patti * Some people claim that Christ was simplifying the law in the Sermon on the Mount. He did not; He magnified the law, made its requirements exponentially more difficult to observe. He showed us that not only actions are subject to scrutiny, but also one's very thoughts, motives, and inclinations. | ||
| Max |
Hi Therese, ^^All the churches I have encountered endorse observing the 10 commandments as a standard by which to live a righteous life, a standard by which to judge sin, and and behavior which is pleasing to God.^^ My thoughts upon reading your post: Jesus Christís single commandment written on the heart is ěThou shalt love.î As ěa standard by which to live a righteous life, a standard by which to judge sin, and and behavior which is pleasing to God,î it is unimaginably SUPERIOR to the Ten Commandments. Even as the Commandments of Jesus are superior to the Commandments of Moses. For, ěJesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself.î (NIV Hebrews 3:3.) NIV text note: ěJesus is the actual BUILDER [the Creator] of the house (or household), whereas Moses was simply a PART of it [only a creature]. Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus INTERPRET the Old Testament Commandments (and there are 613 of them, not just Ten). Instead, everywhere in the New Testament Jesus REINSTATES His law. Christís Law is ěThou shalt love.î It sums up all Ten Commandments and all 613 Old Covenant (Old Testament) commandments. Christís Law existed in the Garden of Eden. It existed during and after the Flood. And BEFORE He, Christ, gave the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai. It is the Eternal Law, whereas the Ten Commandment law was only temporary. It is infinitely superior to the Ten Commandments which He, Christ, wrote with His Own Finger on tablets of stone and gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai. Contrary to what these churches have been teaching you, the Ten Commandment law is NOT the transcript of Godís character. Did they get this from Ellen G. White? Or did she get it from them? Nowhere does Scripture say that! Hereís what Scripture says: ěIn the past [on Sinai, for instance] God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The SON IS the radiance of Godís glory and THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS BEING.î Scripture says the Son is the transcript of Godís character, not the Ten Commandments. Here are two occasions when ěGod spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various waysî: 1. When Noah left the ark Christ gave one law to Noah (Genesis 9:1-17). 2. When Moses stood on Mt. Sinai Christ gave a different law to a different prophet -- Moses (Exodus 20:1-17). Ever notice that Christís Supreme Commandment, ěThou shalt love,î is not among the Ten? It is among the 613 (Leveticus 19:18). Nor was it placed in the ark of the Old Covenant. I believe Christ had a reason for this: Since the Old Covenant law of Ten Commandments was destined to be canceled and nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14), He did not want His followers to think that this Royal Law (James 2:8) was to be canceled and nailed also as the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant typified by the ark of the Old Covenant. Hereís one example of how the Nine Commandments of Christ are infinitely superior to the Ten Commandments of Moses: On Mt. Blessings Jesus quoted the Seventh Commandment, ěYou have heard that it was said, ëDo not commit adultery.í But I tell you that anyone who looks at at woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.î (NIV Matthew 5:27-28.) Refraining from physical adultery is NOT a spiritual application of Mosesí Seventh Commandment? How strange a teaching! And again, refraining from mental adultery is NOT a literal application of Christís Seventh Commandment? Again, how strange! Somehow Iím not picking up the logic of the teachings of these churches you have encountered. To sum up my profound disagreement with the teachings of these churches, I would say this: ěIn the beginning was the Wordî (NIV John 1:1). This Word of God is Christ. Strictly speaking, the Scriptures are NOT the Word of God, only the WITNESS to the Word of God, who is Christ. ěThe Word was Godî (John 1:1). Jesus said, ěBefore Abraham was born, I AM!î (NIV John 8:58). Jesus Christ is the great I AM, not Moses. Therefore the Royal Law of the King of Kings, ěThou shalt love!î is as superior to the Law of Moses as the heavens are higher than the earth. Hear Isaiah: ěFor my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,î declares the LORD. ěAs the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughtsî Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV). Therefore, Christ came to save us and in so doing to restore the true ětranscript of Godís character.î Contrary to what Ellen G. White would have you believe (and apparently these other churches as well), it is not Law of Moses or Law of Noah or any other temporary and inferior law given to humans only to lead them to Christ. For the true ětranscript of Godís characterî is ěthe exact representation of [Godís] being.î ěIn the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels [AND to the Ten Commandments] as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.î Now that Christ has come we have the privilege of looking at the Creator of the house and not just the house itself. Look to His Royal Law written on your heart by the Finger of Christ on the Cross -- ěThou shalt love!î For, ěLove does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.î (Romans 13:10). ěGrace and peace to you [Therese] from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christî (Romans 1:7), Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Patti, How do you know that "there are a handful of people who will say that I am proposing reveling in sinful living"? | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^In the parable, the person who "went down to his house justified" was not the one who thanked God for his changed life.^^ Where does Scripture say that the Pharisee thanked God for his "changed life"? It doesn't. And for good reason -- his life WASN'T changed. For it is the publican and not the Pharisee who enjoyed a changed life! And it was the publican, who ^^was the one who smote his breast and acknowledged his depravity and begged God for mercy^^ who had reason to thank God for his "changed life"! Or do you argue that the publican's life wasn't changed? And that therefore our's won't be either. And do you deny that in Christ believers become "a new creation"? ^^We can do no better in this life.^^ No better than what? No better than the publican who DID experience a changed life as a newly born disciple of Christ? If this is what you mean, then I would be the first to agree and agree wholeheartedly. Furthermore, you are absolutely right when you write, ^^We live as sinners, totally and continually dependent upon the great mercy of our God in forgiving our sins and accepting us for the sake of His Son Jesus Christ, Who alone is worthy of honor and glory and blessing.^^ But does this truth mean that we should NOT strive daily to obey perfectly Christ's Commandment: "Thou shalt love?" "Reveling in sins" has never been what our disagreement has been about. It has always been about what the life of "saved disciple- ship" is all about: Saved people loving one another and even their enemies. Not in order to be saved, but because they are saved. What pleases God is faith -- faith that works the works of love. "Agape one another as I have agaped you," says Christ every day of our lives as people living not under law but under grace. And grace and peace to you also, Max of the Cross | ||
| Chyna |
the fourth commandment was given to be a sign between Israel and God, representative of their covenant (what we know to be the Old Covenant). Paul speaks specifically how the Law (the five books of the law, including law of moses, including ten commandments) were given to Israel, and not the Gentiles. there are many things Christians do not PHYSICALLY observe that God had commanded Israel to do. we do not celebrate Passover, for God freeing us from Egypt, require circumscion for Christians, we do not make blood sacrifices (which God required specifically with exacting details all throughout Leviticus and Numbers). we don't set up booths. we can eat anything in the meat market (we are not under 'unclean' foods anymore) yes, spiritual implication, physical observance. these were all signs for Israel to look for the Savior though, and to remember God's faithfulness, and His promise that He would send a Messiah. like we do not make anymore blood sacrifices because the Ultimate Sacrifice has been made. Therefore, any sacrifice (blood) on our part are useless. We are already forgiven of our sin, regardless of how many pigeons or lambs we sacrifice. likewise we do not observe a physical Sabbath anymore. why? Sabbath is knitted into the very fabric of our Salvation (heehee, just took up knitting recently). just as we cannot do anything to make ourselves more forgiven, that blood sacrifices are ridiculous in light of the blood Jesus poured out for us. so is our observance of Sabbath today, post resurrection. it's like trying to add the concept of earthly rest to Ultimate Rest. useless, and vain. it says in Hebrew 4 that God set aside again a day called Today. Everyday is Sabbath! Our salvation is a "keeping Sabbath" (continuous) but see how "Every Day is a Sabbath!" can make Seventh Day Adventists cringe? they would be running around worrying, "How will we work if Every Day is Sabbath" "If we can't Cook on Sabbath, then we'll just Starve!" "Does that mean EVERYDAY I can't go watch movies?" actually Passover is an EXCELLENT analogy to what has happened to historical Sabbath the Jews observe and what Christians observe today. we in fact DO celebrate Passover! The Lord's Supper was actually a Passover celebration which was just a shadow (not the substance) of salvation. in Passover, the Israelite painted blood on the four frames of their doors (representative of how Christ would be bloodied on the cross -- crown of thorns, two wrists, and feet). the Angel of Death passed them by, thereby SAVING their firstborns. but that salvation of the newborn absolutely PALES in comparison to God's Masterplan of Salvation! To completely save us from sin/death/separation from God! so you and I now celebrate Communion, one of the two or three rituals that Christians were commanded to do in the New Testament. tell me, all Sabbath keepers, is there anything righteous in the intrinsic nature of a day? no, it is the assignment of meaning that God gave it that was important. God gave the Israelites Sabbath for a very important reason, to foreshadow the rest they would find in Salvation, in Christ. it was a promise of rest they once had in the garden of eden. When man fell, he had to start working the land, and toiling. basically, the physical component of Sabbath is no longer necessary because the very personhood, the very thing we rejoice in, our Salvation is the Sabbath fulfilled. Adventists always talk about trying to observe the Sabbath better, or to keep it better as God wants them too. I sit here scratching my head. God has shown us the ultimate Sabbath observance, Salvation - nothing more. love, Chyna | ||
| Max |
Yours, Chyna, is one of the most powerful and convincing posts I've ever read on this website. The sovereign God is using you! -mc | ||
| Cindy |
Yes, Chyna, so very good! I really appreciated how you worded our Rest in Jesus. "God has shown us the ultimate Sabbath observance, Salvation--nothing more." "Our Salvation is the Sabbath fulfilled." And, in trying to "keep" a Sabbath for our salvation: "Our observance of Sabbath today, post resurrection. it's like trying to add the concept of earthly rest to Ultimate Rest. useless, and vain." Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Chyna, great post! Now listen to Ellen White's teachings, sent to me November 29, 2000, by the White Estate. "Wonderful events are soon to open before the world. The end of all things is at hand. The time of trouble is about to come upon the PEOPLE OF GOD. Then it is that the DECREE WILL GO FORTH FORBIDDING THOSE WHO KEEP THE SABBATH OF THE LORD TO BUY OR SELL, AND THREATENING THEM WITH PUNISHMENT, AND EVEN DEATH, IF THEY DO NOT OBSERVE THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK AS THE SABBATH." Historical Sketches, page 155-156 It's no wonder so many of my SDA friends are scared out of their minds! The ones I know well are actually believing this is to come about very very soon. It's sad to watch, they are frightened. Ellen G. White espoused this to so many of us and I know that I believed it too. Her books are full of stuff like this so it is brainwashing in the purest form. It is also taught in the Church. Sabbath School too. Let us all pray for them. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Valm |
Denise, Can you imagine that being taught to a young child? I was scared and anxious most of my bedtime hours pondering these things. We were taught that not only would we not be able to buy or sell but that we would be sought out to be killed. All of my family members, still SDA are practically self sufficient. They have very big gardens and do alot of canning and freezing. Of course, I wonder if they thought about their electricity being shut off with regards to the freezer. At church school we actually played the "time of trouble". We went to a big park and hid in the woods. It was the Adventist twist off hide and seek. Except it gave too much to think about at night. | ||
| Valm |
Jtree, What about Galations 4 and the analogy of Hagar and Sarah. Paul directly compares Hagar to the covenant from Mount Sinai and admonsihes us to get rid of the slave women. It does not sound like the ten commandmants are suppose to be our blue print for living does it? In Galations 5:13 he continues and clarifies that we are not to indluge in sinful nature but to serve one another in love. He states that the entire law is summed up in a single command:"Love your neighbor as yourself. He continues in that chapter to tell us what the acts of a sinful nature are and also what the fruits of the Spirit are. He does not mention the Sabbath once as being included in how we are to behave as Christian. Breaking the Sabbath is not considered an act of the sinful nature and keeping the Sabbath is not considered of the Spirit Life seems pretty simple to me. Love, pray, receive the Holy Spirit and living accordingly will become a natural process. Valerie |
