| Author | Message | ||
| Bruce H |
KEN here is one even earlier then Justin Martyr, it is by Barnabas, you know the guy the traveled around with Paul. THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS CHAPTER 2 [A.D. 98-100.] For He hath revealed to us by all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices, nor burnt-offerings, nor oblations, saying thus, What is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me, saith the Lord? I am full of burnt-offerings, and desire not the fat of lambs, and the blood of bulls and goats, not when ye come to appear before Me: for who hath required these things at your hands? Tread no more My courts, not though ye bring with you fine flour. Incense is a vain abomination unto Me, and your new moons and sabbaths I cannot endure. He has therefore abolished these things, that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is without the yoke of necessity, might have a human oblation. CHAPTER 4 Ye ought therefore to understand. And this also I further beg of you, as being one of you, and loving you both individually and collectively more than my own soul, to take heed now to yourselves, and not to be like some, adding largely to your sins, and saying, 3The covenant is both theirs and ours.2 But they thus finally lost it, after Moses had already received it. For the Scripture saith, And Moses was fasting in the mount forty days and forty nights, and received the covenant from the Lord, tables of stone written with the finger of the hand of the Lord; but turning away to idols, they lost it. For the Lord speaks thus to Moses: Moses go down quickly; for the people whom thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt have transgressed. And Moses understood [the meaning of God], and cast the two tables out of his hands; and their covenant was broken, in order that the covenant of the beloved Jesus might be sealed upon our heart, in the hope which flows from believing in Him. CHAPTER 15 Further, He says to them, Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure. Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfullness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. CHAPTER 16 Moreover, I will also tell you concerning the temple, how the wretched [Jews], wandering in error, trusted not in God Himself, but in the temple, as being the house of God. For almost after the manner of the Gentiles they worshipped Him in the temple. But learn how the Lord speaks, when abolishing it: 3Who hath meted out heaven with a span, and the earth with his palm? Have not I?2 Thus saith the Lord, Heaven is My throne, and the earth My footstool: what kind of house will ye build to Me, or what is the place of My rest? Ye perceive that their hope is vain. Moreover, He again says, Behold, they who have cast down this temple, even they shall build it up again. It has so happened. For through their going to war, it was destroyed by their enemies; and now: they, as the servants of their enemies, shall rebuild it. Again, it was revealed that the city and the temple and the people of Israel were to be given up. For the Scripture saith, 3And 272 it shall come to pass in the last days, that the Lord will deliver up the sheep of His pasture, and their sheep-fold and tower, to destruction. And it so happened as the Lord had spoken. Let us inquire, then, if there still is a temple of God. There is where He himself declared He would make and finish it. For it is written, And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built in glory in the name of the Lord.2 I find, therefore, that a temple does exist. Learn, then, how it shall be built in the name of the Lord. Before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak, as being indeed like a temple made with hands. For it was full of idolatry, and was a habitation of demons, through our doing such things as were opposed to [the will of] God. But it shall be built, observe ye, in the name of the Lord, in order that the temple of the Lord may be built in glory. How? Learn [as follows]. Having received the forgiveness of sins, and placed our trust in the name of the Lord, we have become new creatures, formed again from the beginning. Wherefore in our habitation God truly dwells in us. How? His word of faith; His calling of promise; the wisdom of the statutes; the commands of the doctrine; He himself prophesying in us; He himself dwelling in us; opening to us who were enslaved by death the doors of the temple, that is, the mouth; and by giving us repentance introduced us into the incorruptible temple. He then, who wishes to be saved, looks not to man, but to Him who dwelleth in him, and speaketh in him, amazed at never having either heard him utter such words with his mouth, nor himself having ever desired to hear them. This is the spiritual temple built for the Lord. Now Adventist will say you cannot trust these documents, but the same Adventist will trust the writings of Plato or Socrates which were many years eairlier. But that is OK because they have been telling me that the Bible is not reliable either. Bruce Heinrich bh bh b | ||
| Plain Patti |
Wow! Joshua and Bruce! I am glad we are on the same side! POWERFUL STUFF! Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi Jude, Joshua, Bruce, Patti & Maryann: I felel a little out numbered but still will press on. I think it's unanimous that everyone here, except of course me thinks that Moses's law and God's law are the same or interchangeable. Here are a few Bible texts that I hope will make clear that in fact Moses's & God's law are indeed two different laws. "the law of Moses" LUKE 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord. "the Law of the Lord" ISA. 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. Moses law "Law contained in ordinances" Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. EPH. 2:15 God's law "the Royal law" If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: JAMES 2:8 Written by Moses in a book And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the LORD, as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen. 2 CHRON. 35:12 Written by God on stone And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.EXO. 31:18 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables. EXO. 32:16 Moses's law placed in the side of the ark Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. DEUT. 31:26 God's law placed inside the ark And he took and put the testimony into the ark, and set the staves on the ark, and put the mercy seat above upon the ark: EXO. 40:20 Moses's law ended at the cross Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. EPH. 2:15 God's law will stand forever And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. LUKE 16:17 Moses's law added because of sin Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. GAL. 3:19 God's law points out sin What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. ROM. 7:7 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. ROM. 3:20 Momes's law contrary to us, against us Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. COL. 2:14 God's law not grevious For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.1 JOHN 5:3 Moses's law judges no man Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: COL. 2:14-16 God's law judges all men For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. JAM. 2:10-12 Moses's law is carnal Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. HEB. 7:16 God's law is Spiritual For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. ROM. 7:14 Moses's law made nothing perfect For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. HEB. 7:19 God's law is Perfect The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. PSALMS 19:7 Happy & non burdensom Sabbath Ken | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi Joshua: By jtree on Friday, May 12, 2000 - 06:33 pm: Josh wrote: Ken, for me and my Mouse, we will serve the LORD! My house and also my mouse...click click. I responded: I'm sure the Lord appreciates your interpetation of his word. Ken | ||
| Colleentinker |
I've not had much time to read the forum this week, and I just sat down and read the posts on this thread beginning Thursday night. I'm having four (so far) reactions right now. First, Patti, I couldn't agree more. I don't believe that any of us on this forum who embrace Jesus as our Sabbath rest see any transference of holiness from Sabbath to Sunday. Of course, the biblical Sabbath day is Saturday. It's impossible to make a case for anything else! What we believe is that Jesus, in fulfilling the Old Covenant and instituting the new, gave us a new pristhood and a new law. (Hebrews 7:12) The new law includes a greatly expanded and impacting understanding of rest. It's not about TIME; it's about accepting the finished work of Christ! Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Sunday is NOT the Christian Sabbath. Arguments to prove otherwise are simply attacking a straw man. Second, these quotes from Catholic sources only confirm something of which I became firmly convinced as a result of doing news editing for Adventist Today. Of course, I can't begin to give you detailed proof for my opinion on this forum, but here it is: I believe the SDA church and the Catholic church are really friends (i.e. working together, sharing funds, entering into agreements, etc.) at the highest levels and in the most covert ways. It is not surprising to me that Adventism gives Catholicism the credit for "changing" Sabbath to Sunday. Only the Catholics and the Adventists believe that myth. There are reasons why, under cover of "animostiy", Adventism really supports the Catholic position. Third, these continual arguments about the eternal holinss of a day (what a reduction of divinityóto claim a day of time is the rest of God!) remind me of two Bible passages. The first is II Corinthians 3:14 where Paul says people's minds remain dull wherever Moses is read because only in Christ is the veil taken away. The second passage is Titus 3:9 where Paul admonishes believers to "avoid foolish contoversies and geneologies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless." I'm convinced that discussions about the law are useless with a person who still has the veil of the Old Covenant dulling his mind. Fourth, I'm drawn back to Bill's comment about God's covenants being fulfilled with absoltuely no conditions, regardless of what we humans do or don't do, whether or not we have faith or not. I believe Bill is absolutely right. What we choose to believe about Jesus makes all the difference in the world to our own lives. But God's promises are absolutely sure. He is not and has never been dependent upon us for the fulfillment of his promises. He is sovereign, and his will is absolute, no matter what we do. Only the Mosaic covenenant was conditional, and it began at Sinai and ended at the cross. All other covenantsóAbrahamic, Davidic, New Covenant, etc.ówere unconditional. They are absolute promises of God, and in his sovereignty they have been and will continue to be fulfilledóregardless of us. I praise God for being sovereign and for giving me a place in his sovereign will! | ||
| Plain Patti |
I think it's unanimous that everyone here, except of course me thinks that Moses's law and God's law are the same or interchangeable. I am not sure where you got that. There is no way that I believe that "Moses'" law and God's law are the same or interchangeable. In fact, what I am hearing is quite the opposite. If Moses' law and God's law were one and the same, then we would not be proclaiming the end of the jurisdiction of the Mosaic law over believers in Christ. I think what you are trying to say is that we believe that the law of Moses and the Big Ten are a single ball of wax, which is true, which is scriptural, which I pointed out to you in Hebrews 10. I wish, as Maryann expressed, that you would answer issues directly, instead of trying to divert our attention with a barrage of unrelated, isolated texts taken out of their context. I will address each of your points in a later post. It would be nice if you would extend to me the same courtesy. I have heard it said in SDA circles that "the Ten Commandments are a transcript of God's character." This is so preposterous. That is like saying that the rules one sets down for his/her children are an exact representation of your character. Do you think that God honors His father and mother? Do you think that He is married (the only way He could refrain from committing adultery)? Do you think He has to refrain from stealing when the entire universe belongs to Him anyway? Do you think He must control His covetousness? Ludicrous. The Mosaic laws, including the Big Ten, were a part of the rules He gave to the Israelites "until all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Jesus came to fulfill all of the law and the prophets, (Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil) which (if you believe in Jesus as the Christ, then you must acknowledge) He did. I am not sure if I heard this on here...if I did, I apologize for plagiarizing. On the day of transfiguration, who appeared with Christ on the mountain? Moses and Elijah--representing the Law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah). The disciples offered to build shrines for all three of them, but remember Who was the One, the only One of the three, Who was honored by God? Jesus Christ. Showing yet again, as in the book of Hebrews, that Jesus Christ is superior to all that went before, Jesus Christ is superior to Moses, to the Mosaic laws, and He is not just another prophet, like Elijah. He is above all to be praised and honored. He is God's final and ultimate Word to mankind. (Hebrews 1:1-3) | ||
| Bill Twisse |
Timo, Jude, Bruce, and Steve: Thanks for your kind responses (notably those of Jude and Timo), not to minimize the others. You are great Christian 'mates.' I'll respond more in detail later as I have worked all night and am weary. I'll just state a few things now. For details on the history of the Irvingites and their false teaching, see the books of Dave MacPherson (recent works: "The Rapture Plot", "The Three R's", also his historic work "The Incredible Cover-up"). Another good out-of-print work is "The Great Rapture Hoax"--if you can find it in a library. He carefully documents, in a scholarly fashion, the true origen of the pre-trib rapture theory from the heretical Irvingites. It was originally an issue of achieving sinless perfection in order to be 'raptured' and avoid the tribulation. The version of the 'rapture' we have today is a reinvention by J.N Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, much as the 'perfection' side of the heresy was reinvented by Ellen White and the SDA's as the IJ doctrine. Walter Rea and others discovered the connection between Edward Irving's false teaching (outlined in 'The Morning Watch' publication) and those of the 1851 'investigative judgment' reinterpretation. The Irvingites had their own false prophet Margaret MacDonald, whose style of communicating her 'visions from God' was copied by Ellen White. The particular doctrine of the nature of Christ taught by Irving and the SDA's (that he possessed a fallen human nature, thus we can imitate him perfectly) is almost exclusive to the Irvingites (now extinct, I believe) and the early SDA's. Two strange bedfellows who would say that they had nothing to do with each other. Steve, I can assure you (& agree with you, I think) that the only reasonable position on Christ's impeccability is that he could not have sinned. But more to say about that later. In the gospel, Bill Twisse | ||
| Plain Patti |
Colleen, Very well stated. I am in total agreement, except for one minor detail, which is not important, and on which you may very well be correct. That was about the SDA church and the RCC. You may be right about a conspiracy on the highest levels, but below that, I think it is merely ignorance of the beliefs of the RCC, a misuse of the Scriptures, (Texts are used out of context, as single missiles aimed at the "heresies" of the apostates. I have never heard an entire chapter or passage of Scripture expounded upon by an SDA, except of course for things like the 23rd Psalm and the Lord's Prayer. The "three angels' messages is as close as they get, and even these are lifted from their apocalyptic setting and "explained" by obscure and unrelated texts from all over the OT.) a focus on themselves as God's pure remnant instead of Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16), and their dependence upon a plagiarized and "Harmon-ized" (Hey, that was pretty good, wasn't it?? :)--therefore inaccurate--account of history. They are taught not to trust any sources outside of Ellen White. Although they include the Bible with Ellen, we are not to trust any interpretation thereof except for Ellen's. Therefore they blindly cry, Beast, beast! at the RCC without knowing that the RCC theology bears a remarkable resemblance to their own. In fact, the SDA doctrine of salvation is virtually identical to that of the "Beast." Having said that, I always did wonder how an SDA like Bacchiocchi was allowed to attend and graduate from the Pontifical university in the Vatican (the only non-Catholic scholar there EVER). That in itself should raise quite a few eyebrows...... Thanks for your thoughts! Patti | ||
| Plain Patti |
Ken, Since you regard Catholic scholars as being authoritative, I thought I would use them (The Catholic Encyclopedia) to show you that SDA beliefs and those of the RCC are very closely related. Where did SDAs get the notion that the law of God was dissected into different parts? That's right, you guessed it: from the RCC. This article is found at this URL: Catholic Encyclopedia "The Divine Law of the Old Testament, or the Mosaic Law, is commonly divided into civil, ceremonial, and moral precepts. The civil legislation regulated the relations of the people of God among themselves and with their neighbours; the ceremonial regulated matters of religion and the worship of God; the moral was a Divine code of ethics..." "When the Gospel had been duly promulgated the civil and ceremonial precepts of the Law of Moses became not only useless, but false and superstitious, and thus forbidden. "It was otherwise with the moral precepts of the Mosaic Law. The Master expressly taught that the observance of these, inasmuch as they are prescribed by nature herself, is necessary for salvation ó "If thou wouldst enter into life keep the commandments", ó those well-known precepts of the Decalogue." Does it not bother you in the least to be in total agreement with the "Beast" on such an important issue? Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken, I really am growing to admire your intestinal fortitude. You make me hunt. Praise God for you! You brought up some of your "best" so far in my opinion. You said: "I feel a little out numbered but still will press on." "I think it's unanimous that everyone here, except of course me thinks that Moses's law and God's law are the same or interchangeable." "Here are a few Bible texts that I hope will make clear that in fact Moses's & God's law are indeed two different laws." This is where I have to differ with your interpretation. "the law of Moses" "LUKE 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord. " My understanding according to Strong's Exaustive Concordance of the Bible (SEC): LUKE 2:22 uses Gk word # 3551 for Law, nomos, regulation specifically of Moses. I agree with you, law of Moses. "the Law of the Lord" "ISA. 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. " ISA. 5:24 uses the Heb. word # 8451, Torah, meaning precept or statute, espec. the decalogue or Pentateuch:-law. Agreed, law of the Lord. "Moses law "Law contained in ordinances" Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. EPH. 2:15" EPH. 2:15 uses Gk word # 1785 meaning an authoritative prescription:- commandment, precept. Also derived from word # 1781 meaning charge also from word # 1722 denoting (fixed) position ( in place, time or state). I agree, law of Moses. "God's law "the Royal law" If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: JAMES 2:8" JAMES 2:8, Oops, this is the same Gk word # 3551 that LUKE 2:22. Now we have the same word used in the law of Moses and the Law of God. Royal as used in the KJ is word # 937 as doesn't seem to me to be refering to God. SEC says: belonging to (or befitting) the sovereign (as land, dress or a courtier). I'm not to sure, but this seems to say to me; royal law of the land. "Written by Moses in a book And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the LORD, as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen. 2 CHRON. 35:12" 2 CHRON. 35:12 is Heb. word # 4872 means Lawgiver;-Moses. Agreed, law of Moses. "Written by God on stone And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.EXO. 31:18 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables. EXO. 32:16" EXO. 31:18 and EXO. 32:16, Heb. words # 5707/5715 means testimony; spec. a recorder. Agreed, law of God. "Moses's law placed in the side of the ark Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. DEUT. 31:26" DEUT. 31:26 as in ISA. 5:24 uses Heb. word # 8451. Agreed, law of God "God's law placed inside the ark And he took and put the testimony into the ark, and set the staves on the ark, and put the mercy seat above upon the ark: EXO. 40:20" EXO. 40:20 same as EXO. 31:18 and EXO. 32:16 use the Heb. words # 5707/5715. Agreed, law of God. "Moses's law ended at the cross Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. EPH. 2:15" EPH. 2:15 use use again. Gk word # 1785. Agreed again, Moses law. "God's law will stand forever And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. LUKE 16:17" LUKE 16:17 uses Gk word # 3551. Agreed, this is God's law. Oops again, tis is the same word that wa used in Moses law in LUKE 2:22 "Moses's law added because of sin Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. GAL. 3:19" GAL. 3:19. Oops again, this is the law of Moses using word # 3551 that LUKE 2:22 also says is the law of Moses. LUKE 16:17 as you say is the law of God and it uses the same word # 3551? Seems to me that God is getting confused? "God's law points out sin What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. ROM. 7:7" ROM. 7:7. Oops again? God got confused with LUKE 2:22 again! "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. ROM. 3:20" ROM. 3:20. Again, He got confused! "Moses's law contrary to us, against us Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. COL. 2:14" COL. 2:14 uses Gk word # 1378 (ordinaces) which in conjuction with handwriting # 5498 means; handwritten degree. Last time I checked, the 10C were was a handwritten degree by GOD? "God's law not grevious For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.1 JOHN 5:3" 1 JOHN 5:3 uses Gk word # 1785 Agreed is God's law, But, EPH. 2:15 is the same # 1785 and you said it was Moses' law. I agree. "Moses's law judges no man Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: COL. 2:14-16" COL. 2:14 uses Gk word # 1378 (ordinaces) which in conjuction with handwriting # 5498 means; handwritten degree. Last time I checked, the 10C were was a handwritten degree by GOD? "God's law judges all men For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. JAM. 2:10-12" JAM. 2:10-12. Now this got interesting. Gk word # 3650 means whole law, just as it says. It doesn't say 10C! Or whole 10C! "whole' or "all", i.e.(in extent, amount, time or degree) every whit. The other two uses in those verses are both # 3551? Seems as though Moses and God's law is used interchangably? "Moses's law is carnal Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. HEB. 7:16" HEB. 7:16. Now this is really interesting. Law and commandment are # 3551 and # 1785? They are used together in the same breath? "God's law is Spiritual For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. ROM. 7:14" ROM. 7:14 is # 3551. Agreed, God's law. "Moses's law made nothing perfect For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. HEB. 7:19" HEB. 7:19 is # 3551. Moses' law. Agreed "God's law is Perfect The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. PSALMS 19:7" PSALMS 19:7 uses Heb. word # 5707/5715 and is the law of God. I agree. But, EXO. 31:18 and EXO. 32:16, Heb. words # 5707/5715 means testimony; spec. a recorder. Agreed, law of God. I've really enjoyed chasing all this down. I may not be correct in how I deduced my conclusions. It really apears to me that the law of God and the law of Moses are the same. After all, isn't the entire Bible the word of God? And if the Bible is the word of God, we CAN'T pick which law is Moses' and which law is God's. I certainly hope the whole Bible is the word of God. I would certainly be horrified of the responsibility of dissecting which law belonged to who. Sooooo, I choose to believe that ALL Biblical laws are equally inspired and are all God's laws. I also choose to believe that if the inspired word of God says that the law was nailed to the cross, that means the entire law. I also choose to believe that that I am under Christ now that I believe, not the old taskmaster that was nailed so soundly to the cross. In fact as soundly as you yourself so beautifully pointed out above. Thank you so much. And nooooooo! God is NOT confused. Your friend.....Maryann | ||
| BRUCE H |
PLAIN PATTI GRAT POINT ON THE SEPERATION OF THE LAW. HERE IS ANOTHER STUDY I WISH KEN WOULD ANSWERE BUT I AM SURE HE WILL NOT. Lets Play which Commandment or Law it is. Pick from these choices. 1) Ten Commandments 2) Cerimonial Law 3) Moral Law 4) All Law (613) Old Covenant Mt 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. SDA'S - 1 BRUCE - 4 Mt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. SDA'S - 1 BRUCE - 4 Mt 7:12 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. SDA'S - 3 BRUCE - 4 Mt 11:13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. SDA'S - 2 BRUCE _ 4 Mt 12:5 "Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? SDA'S - 2 BRUCE - 4 Mt 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" SDA'S - 1 BRUCE - 4 Mt 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." SDA'S - 1 BRUCE - 4 Mt 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. SDA'S - 3 BRUCE - 4 Lu 2:22 Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord SDA'S - 2 BRUCE _ 4 Lu 2:23 (as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the LORD"), Lu 2:24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, "A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons." SDA'S - 2 BRUCE - 4 Lu 5:17 Now it happened on a certain day, as He was teaching, that there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by, who had come out of every town of Galilee, Judea, and Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was present to heal them. SDA'S - 4 BRUCE - 4 Lu 16:17 "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail. SDA'S - 1 BRUCE - 4 Joh 1:45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." SDA'S - 4 BRUCE - 4 Joh 7:19 "Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?" SDA'S - 1ST LAW = 2 SDA'S - 2ND LAW = 1 BRUCE BOTH LAWS - 4 Joh 8:5 "Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" SDA'S - 2 BRUCE - 4 Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law SDA1S - 1ST WORD LAW =DONT KNOW EVERYBODY HAS ALWAYS HAD THE LAW FROM EDEN?????? SDA'S - 2ND WORD LAW = SAME AS ABOVE???? SDA'S - 3RD WORD LAW = 1 SDA'S - 4TH WORD LAW = 1 BRUCE ALL FOUR = 4 Ro 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; SDA'S - 1 BRUCE - 4 Ro 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, SDA'S - 1ST WORD LAW = DONT KNOW TEN COMMANDMENTS GIVEN AT EDEN THUS ALL GENTILES HAVE LAW????? SDA'S - 2ND WORD LAW = SAME AS ABOVE??? SDA'S - 3RD WORD LAW = SAME AS ABOVE???? SDA'S - 4TH WORD LAW = NOBODY BUT GOD IS LAW. BRUCE - 4 Ro 2:25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. SDA'S - WHAT CAN BE PROFITABLE ABOUT THE CERIMONIAL LAW? BRUCE - 4 Ro 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. SDA'S - 1ST WORD LAW = 1 SDA'S - 2ND WORD LAW = 2 BRUCE - 4 Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. SDA'S - 2 BRUCE - 4 Ro 5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, SDA'S - 2 (WOW CERIMONIAL LAW CAUSES OFFENSE TO ABOUND) BRUCE - 4 Ro 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? SDA'S - 1 BRUCE - 4 Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. SDA'S - 2 BRUCE _ 4 Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." Ro 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. SDA'S - 1ST WORD LAW = 1 SDA'S - 2ND WORD LAW = 1 SDA'S - 3RD WORD LAW = 1 SDA'S - 4TH WORD LAW = 2 BRUCE - 4 (ALL 4) Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, SDA'S - ? BRUCE - 4 Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. SDA'S - 2 BRUCE - 4 Ro 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. SDA'S - 1ST WORD LAW = 1 SDA'S - 2ND WORD LAW = 2 BRUCE BOTH WORDS - 4 1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. SDA'S - 2 BRUCE - 4 Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." SDA'S - 1ST WORD LAW = 2 SDA'S - 2ND WORD LAW = 2 BRUCE - 4 Ga 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, Ga 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. SDA'S - 1ST WORD LAW = 1 AND 2 IF THAT IS POSSIBLE FOR ONE WORD TO BE BOTH, OR IS IT ANYWAY? SDA'S - 2ND WORD LAW = 2 BRUCE - 4 Ga 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." SDA'S - 1 BRUCE - 4 Ga 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. SDA'S - 2 BRUCE - 4 1Ti 1:7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm. 1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, SDA'S 1ST WORD LAW = 2 SDA'S 2ND WORD LAW = 1 BRUCE - 4 Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. SDA'S - 2 BRUCE - 4 Jas 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. SDA'S - 1 BRUCE - 4 Jas 2:11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. SDA'S - 1 BRUCE - 4 TOTAL FOR THE WORD LAW (OR TORAH) SDA1S 1) Ten Commandments--------------- 21 TIMES 2) Cerimonial Law---------------------- 21 TIMES 3) Moral Law----------------------------- 3 TIMES 4) All Law (613) Old Covenant ----- 2 TIMES BRUCE 4) All Law (613) Old Covenant ------ 47 TIMES THE WORD LAW MEANS THE SAME THING EVERY SINGLE TIME. BY THE WAY NO MATTER WHICH GROUP OF CHRISTIANS YOU GO THROUGH, THEY WILL GIVE YOU A DIFFERENT GROUP OF NUMBERS AS TO WHICH ONE ARE CERIMONIAL, MORAL, ETC. IF YOU ARE SOMBODY WHO IS REALLY TRYING TO OBEY GODS COMMANDS THEN YOU WILL TAKE INTEREST AND SEE THAT THERE IS NO WAY AROUND THIS LAW. DIFFERENT GROUPS WILL SAY WELL THIS OR THIS WAS FULFILLED BUT ALL THEY DO IS LESSEN THE POWER OF THE LAW TO CONDEMN. ANOTHER POINT WHY WOULD THE GOD OF THIS UNIVERSE WHO CAN PUT TOGETHER OUR INTRICATE UNIVERSE FORGET TO SPELL OUT FOR US WHICH LAWS HE WAS TALKING ABOUT, OR MAYBE HE DID!!!!!!! BRUCE HEINRICH YOU KNOW PLAIN PATTI HAS A POINT SINCE THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE ONE WHO BROKE UP THE LAW INTO THE DIFFERENT PARTS MAYBE WE SHOULD GO TO THEM. BH | ||
| BRUCE H |
THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE MAGNESIANS ABOUT 194 A.D. OR 200 YEAR BEFORE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND 100 YRS AFTER SAINT JOHN. Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, and things in which the Jews make their boast. Old things are passed away: behold, all things have become new. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Jesus Christ. If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead. merchandise of Christ, corrupting His word, and giving up Jesus to sale: they are corrupters of women, and covetous of other men's possessions, swallowing up wealth insatiably; from whom may ye be delivered by the mercy of God through our Lord Jesus Christ! let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, To the end, for the eighth day, on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ, whom the children of perdition, the enemies of the Savior, deny, whose God is their belly, who mind earthly things, who are lovers of pleasure, and not lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. These make merchandise of Christ, corrupting His word, and giving up Jesus to sale: they are corrupters of women, and covetous of other men1s possessions, swallowing up wealth insatiably; from whom may ye be delivered by the mercy of God through our Lord Jesus Christ! It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God. THERE ARE MORE. BRUCE HEINRICH | ||
| BRUCE H |
TERTULLIAN A.D. 200 ABOUT 170 TO 190 YEAR BEFORE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. By our Lord's own precept and example, it may be received at the hour of ordinary meals, and alike by all the faithful whether men or women, yet we usually do this in our gatherings before daybreak. Offerings are made in honor of our departed friends, on the anniversaries of their deaths, which we esteem their true birthdays, as they are born to a better life. We kneel at other times, but on the Lord1s day, and from the Paschal Feast to Pentecost we stand in prayer, nor do we count it lawful to fast on Sundays. We are concerned if even a particle of the wine or bread, made ours, in the Lord1s Supper, fails to the ground, by our carelessness. In all the ordinary occasions of life we furrow our foreheads with the sign of the Cross, in which we glory none the less because it is regarded as our shame by the heathen in presence of whom it is a profession of our faith. He owns there is no Scripture for any of these usages, in which there was an amplifying of the precepts of Christ. Let us note there was yet no superstitious usage even of this sign of the Cross. It was an act by which, in suffering shame for Jesus1 name, they fortified themselves against betraying the Master. It took the place, be it remembered, of innumerable heathen practices, and was a protest against them. It meant God forbid that I should glory, save in the Cross. I express no personal opinion as to this observance, but give the explanation which the early Christians would have given. Tertullian touched with Montanism, but not yet withdrawn from Catholic Communion, pleads the common cause of believers. But the same apostle elsewhere bids us take care to please all: As I, he says, please all by all means.2 No doubt he used to please them by celebrating the Saturnalia (Saturday or Sabbath) and New-year's day!(Rosh Hashanah) [Was it so] or was it by moderation and patience? by gravity, by kindness, by integrity? In like manner, when he is saying, I have become all things to all, that I may gain all, does he mean to idolaters an idolater? to heathens a heathen? to the worldly worldly? But albeit he does not prohibit us from having our conversation with idolaters and adulterers, and the other criminals, saying, Otherwise ye would go out from the world, of course he does not so slacken those reins of conversation that, since it is necessary for us both to live and to mingle with sinners, we may be able to sin with them too. Where there is the intercourse of life, which the apostle concedes, there is sinning, which no one permits. To live with heathens is lawful, to die with them is not. Let us live with all; let us be glad with them, out of community of nature, not of superstition. We are peers in soul, not in discipline; fellow-possessors of the world, not of error. But if we have no right of communion in matters of this kind with strangers, how far more wicked to celebrate them among brethren! Who can maintain or defend this? The Holy Spirit upbraids the Jews with their holy-days. Your Sabbaths, and new moons, and ceremonies, says He, My soul hateth. By us, to whom Sabbaths are strange, and the new moons and festivals formerly beloved by God, the Saturnalia and New-year's and Midwinter's festivals and Matronalia are frequented presents come and go New-year's gifts games join their noise banquets join their din! Oh better fidelity of the nations to their own sect, which claims no solemnity of the Christians for itself! Not the Lord's day, not Pentecost, even it they had known them, would they have shared with us; for they would fear lest they should seem to be Christians. We are not apprehensive lest we seem to be heathens! If any indulgence is to be granted to the flesh, you have it. I will not say your own days, but more too; for to the heathens each festive day occurs but once annually: you have a festive day every eighth day. Call out the individual solemnities of the nations, and set them out into a row, they will not be able to make up a Pentecost. Wherefore, that I may return from this digression, you who reproach us with the sun and Sunday should consider your proximity to us. We are not far off from your Saturn and your days of rest. For if circumcision purges a man since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did He not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? At all events, in settling him in paradise, He appointed one uncircumcised as colonist of paradise. Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised, and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering Him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by Him commended; while He accepted what he was offering in simplicity of heart, and reprobated the sacrifice of his brother Cain, who was not rightly dividing what he was offering. Noah also, uncircumcised yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath God freed from the deluge. For Enoch, too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, He translated from this world; who did not first taste death, in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might by this time show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God. Melchizedek also, the priest of the most high God, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was chosen to the priesthood of God. Lot, withal, the brother of Abraham, proves that it was for the merits of righteousness, without observance of the law, that he was freed from the conflagration of the Sodomites. But Abraham, (you say,) was circumcised. Yes, but he pleased God before his circumcision; nor yet did he observe the Sabbath. For he had accepted circumcision; but such as was to be for a sign of that time, not for a prerogative title to salvation. In fact, subsequent patriarchs were uncircumcised, like Melchizedek, who, uncircumcised, offered to Abraham himself, already circumcised, on his return from battle, bread and wine. But again, (you say) the son of Moses would upon one occasion have been choked by an angel, if Zipporah, had not circumcised the foreskin of the infant with a pebble; whence, there is the greatest peril if any fail to circumcise the foreskin of his flesh. Nay, but if circumcision altogether brought salvation, even Moses himself, in the case of his own son, would not have omitted to circumcise him on the eighth day; whereas it is agreed that Zipporah did it on the journey, at the compulsion of the angel. OF THE OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH It follows, accordingly, that, in so far as the abolition of carnal circumcision and of the old law is demonstrated as having been consummated at its specific times, so also the observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary. For the Jews say, that from the beginning God sanctified the seventh day, by resting on it from all His works which He made; and that thence it was, likewise, that Moses said to the People: 3Remember the day of the sabbaths, to sanctify it: every servile work ye shall not do therein, except what pertaineth unto life. Whence we (Christians) understand that we still more ought to observe a sabbath from all servile work always, and not only every seventh day, but through all time. And through this arises the question for us, what sabbath God willed us to keep? For the Scriptures point to a sabbath eternal and a sabbath temporal. For Isaiah the prophet says, Your sabbaths my soul hateth; and in another place he says, My sabbaths ye have profaned. Whence we discern that the temporal sabbath is human, and the eternal sabbath is accounted divine; concerning which He predicts through Isaiah: 3And there shall be,2 He says, 3month after month, and day after day, and sabbath after sabbath; and all flesh shall come to adore in Jerusalem, saith the Lord;2 which we understand to have been fulfilled in the times of Christ, when 3all flesh2 that is, every nation 3came to adore in Jerusalem2 God the Father, through Jesus Christ His Son, as was predicted through the prophet: 3Behold, proselytes through me shall go unto Thee.2 Thus, therefore, before this temporal sabbath, there was withal an eternal sabbath foreshown and foretold; just as before the carnal circumcision there was withal a spiritual circumcision foreshown. In short, let them teach us, as we have already premised, that Adam observed the sabbath; or that Abel, when offering to God a holy victim, pleased Him by a religious reverence for the sabbath; or that Enoch, when translated, had been a keeper of the sabbath; or that Noah the ark-builder observed, on account of the deluge, an immense sabbath; or that Abraham, in observance of the sabbath, offered Isaac his son; or that Melchizedek in his priesthood received the law of the sabbath. But the Jews are sure to say, that ever since this precept was given through Moses, the observance has been binding. Manifest accordingly it is, that the precept was not eternal nor spiritual, but temporary, which would one day cease. In short, so true is it that it is not in the exemption from work of the sabbath that is, of the seventh day that the celebration of this solemnity is to consist, that Joshua the son of Nun, at the time that he was reducing the city Jericho by war, stated that he had received from God a precept to order the People that priests should carry the ark of the testament of God seven days, making the circuit of the city; and thus, when the seventh day1s circuit had been performed, the walls of the city would spontaneously fall. Which was so done; and when the space of the seventh day was finished, just as was predicted, down fell the walls of the city. Whence it is manifestly shown, that in the number of the seven days there intervened a sabbath-day. For seven days, whencesoever they may have commenced, must necessarily include within them a sabbath-day; on which day not only must the priests have worked, but the city must have been made a prey by the edge of the sword by all the people of Israel. Nor is it doubtful that they 3wrought servile work, 3when, in obedience to God1s precept, they the times of the Maccabees, too, they did bravely in fighting on the sabbaths, and routed their foreign foes, and recalled the law of their fathers to the primitive style of life by fighting on the sabbaths. Nor should I think it was any other law which they thus vindicated, than the one in which they remembered the existence of the prescript touching 3the day of the sabbaths.2 Whence it is manifest that the force of such precepts was temporary, and respected the necessity of present circumstances; and that it was not with a view to its observance in perpetuity that God formerly gave them such a law. OF THE ABOLITION AND THE ABOLISHER OF THE OLD LAW Therefore, since it is manifest that a sabbath temporal was shown, and a sabbath eternal foretold; a circumcision carnal foretold, and a circumcision spiritual pre-indicated; a law temporal and a law eternal formally declared; sacrifices carnal and sacrifices spiritual foreshown; it follows that, after all these precepts had been given carnally, in time preceding, to the people Israel, there was to supervene a time whereat the precepts of the ancient Law and of the old ceremonies would cease, and the promise of the new law, and the recognition of spiritual sacrifices, and the promise of the New Testament, supervene; while the light from on high would beam upon us who were sitting in darkness, and were being detained in the shadow of death. And so there is incumbent on us a necessity binding us, since we have premised that a new law was predicted by the prophets, and that not such as had been already given to their fathers at the time when He led them forth from the land of Egypt, to show and prove, on the one hand, that that old Law has ceased, and on the other, that the promised new law is now in operation. And, indeed, first we must inquire whether there be expected a giver of the new law, and an heir of the new testament, and a priest of the new sacrifices, and a purger of the new circumcision, and an observer of the eternal sabbath, to suppress the old law, and institute the new testament, and offer the new sacrifices, and repress the ancient ceremonies, and suppress the old circumcision together with its own sabbath, and announce the new kingdom which is not corruptible. Inquire, I say, we must, whether this giver of the new law, observer of the spiritual sabbath, priest of the eternal sacrifices, eternal ruler of the eternal kingdom, be come or no: that, if he is already come, service may have to be rendered him; if he is not yet come, he may have to be awaited, until by his advent it be manifest that the old Law1s precepts are suppressed, and that the beginnings of the new law ought to arise. And, primarily, we must lay it down that the ancient Law and the prophets could not have ceased, unless He were come who was constantly announced, through the same Law and through the same prophets, as to come. Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshipping the heavenly bodies likewise, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have even admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day, in preference to the preceding day as the most suitable in the week for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and for banqueting. By resorting to these customs, you deliberately deviate from your own religious rites to those of strangers. For the Jewish feasts are the Sabbath and 3the Purification,2 and Jewish also are the ceremonies of the lamps, and the fasts of unleavened bread, and the 3littoral prayers,2 all which institutions and practices are of course foreign from your gods. Wherefore, that I may return from this digression, you who reproach us with the sun and Sunday should consider your proximity to us. We are not far off from your Saturn and your days of rest. BRUCE HEINRICH HAY YOU GUY'S THEY SAY WE WORSHIP THE SUN WELL THEN THEY WORSHIP SATURN HA HA BH | ||
| Ken |
Hi Maryann: Thanks for reading my post. I find it real amusing that you have to check with "Strong's Exaustive Concordance" before you can agree or disagree with what I posted. Whatever floats your boat! Ken | ||
| Steve |
Bruce, Good stuff. I've always enjoyed reading the Early Church Fathers. And now they mean even more to me. I used to try to find Catholic thoughts in them to show how the church had strayed from what was preached by the Apostles. But you are making it ABUNDANTLY clear that the faith that the Apostles taught is what the Fathers were teaching. I like these thoughts from Tertullian. We SDA have always claimed that worshipping on Sunday was equated with Sun worship. As you so brilliantly point out, that would make those who worship on Saturday Saturn worshippers. Incredible. I loved learning Norse mythology. I think its one of the most amazing mythologies in the world. In that mythology you learn that some of the days of the week are as follows: Tuesday = Tyr's day Wednesday = Wodin's (Odin's) day Thursday = Thor's day Friday = Freya's day (Does anyone out there know what Monday came from?) Wonderul study Bruce. Steve | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken, You said: "Thanks for reading my post. I find it real amusing that you have to check with "Strong's Exaustive Concordance" before you can agree or disagree with what I posted. Whatever floats your boat!" Well, thank you for reading my post too. I find it real amusing also that you missed the point again. I didn't need to check with Strong's to agree or disagree with you. I already know that God's law is Moses' law and Moses' law is God's law in the same way that Bible is in it's entirety, the inspired word of God. I thought that maybe YOU would see that ALL law is God's law. I'm very happy that you noticed that I'm off a sinking boat and now on a "floating boat". Would you like to join me? What ever the case, I need to thank you again for MAKING me open up books and Bibles and study! Really! Your friend.......Maryann | ||
| Plain Patti |
Ken, Is that the best you can do to answer Maryann and others? I have found that when people do not have answers, or when they do not like the answers that are inevitable, they resort to ad hominem tactics. Do you know what that means, Ken? It means attacking the messenger because you do not like the message. That is what you did to Maryann. And what is wrong with backing up your conclusions with research anyway? It is very rare to see any SDA work that does not give references to support its arguments. Unfortunately, these references are from a single source, ex. DA, SC, 2T, GC, etc. Do you truly think that Ellen is the only person in the "modern" world that has had any insight into Christianity? Never mind, I know the answer to that one. (Sigh) This sin of exclusivism is probably the biggest impediment for SDAs hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Grace and peace, Patti PS Still waiting for you to give some direct answers to the ideas that have been presented to you. | ||
| jtree |
Hi Ken, I said>for me and my Mouse, we will serve the LORD! My house and also my mouse...click click. you responded: I'm sure the Lord appreciates your interpetation of his word. It's not mine, I borrowed the phrase from the local Christian radio station. They use that phrase and "interpretation" in a commercial "when online drop by our web page" Hope you didn't mind I use it also. | ||
| Ken |
Hi Class: It looks like the new word for this group is elementary! The law of Moses is a book of writings that Moses wrote, they were placed "in the side of the ark of the covenant". The ark of the covenant also contained God's Law. God's Law is written with His finger into stone. I think maybe God was trying to make a point to everyone by writing the "Big Ten" in stone that his law will not change. Since you probably can't still understand this picture I've been painting now for weeks I will also include, "plagiarize" the texts from the KJV. Deut. 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, Notice how the above verse says Moses's law. Deut. 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Deut. 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. Notice how the above text says book of the law, put in the side of the ark. I believe the "Big Ten" were written in stone. I also believe that makes two different laws. as you will see below. Deut. 10:1 At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood. Deut. 10:2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark. Deut. 31:27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Does anybody now have any doubt that the law of Moses and the Law of God could not possibly be the same? Ken | ||
| jtree |
Ken I think you don't read what we post. Because you don't reply to answers, only at CERTAIN statements. Again, are you a Mt. Sinai mountain climber? We here know that the Adventists have drawn up a long list of things which they claim, and you confirm by your postings, are true of what call the "moral law" and an opposite list which you apply to your "ceremonial law." These two which you have demonstrate contrast and make out two laws. One being the 10 commandments, So here we have your "moral law." Now here is the other one: "The ceremonial law": "Was communicated to Moses privately and was by Moses written with a pen in a book (Deut. 31:9)." "Was put into a receptacle by the side of the ark (Deut. 31:26)." "Was wholly ceremonial" Hence everything not found in the Decalog belongs to the ceremonial law, and everything Moses himself wrote in the book of the law placed in the side of the ark is "wholly ceremonial." Deut. 31:26 reads: "Take this book of the law and put it in the side of the ark." I ask you then, how much "the book of the law" was contained in it? The answer is easy: It contained all the five books of Mosesó Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Hear 2 Kings 14:6 says it "is written in the book of the law of Moses," and then quotes Deut. 24:16, as the book of the law. 2 Chron. 35:12 says: "It is written in the book of Moses," and refers to Lev. 3:3. Ezra 6:18 says: "It is written in the book of Moses," and refers to Num. 3:6. Josh. 8:31 quotes Exod. 20:25, as that which "is written in the book of the law." 1 Cor. 14:34 refers to Gen. 3:16, as "the law." This settles beyond question that the book of the law deposited in the side of the ark was the five books of Moses. A write on Deut. 31:26 says: "This [book] appears to have been a correct and authentic copy of the five books of Moses." This book, Adventists say, is "wholly ceremonial." It is your ceremonial law. Yet that very book contained scores of precepts as purely moral as any in the Decalog. Read these: "Thou shalt not vex a stranger." "Ye shall not afflict any widow or fatherless child" (Exod. 22:21,22). "Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil" (Exod. 23:2). "Ye shall be holy." "Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people." "Thou shalt not avenge nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" (Lev. 19:2, 16,18). "Thou shalt not respect persons." "Thou shalt perfect" (Deut. 16:19; 18:13). These are but a few among scores of moral precepts not found in the tables of stone, but in the book of the law. Are all these to be classed ceremonial because God did not write them on a stone, but gave them to Moses to write in a book? Surely not. Then, the nature of a precept was not determined by the way it was given. God gave them all at different times as it pleased him. "The law" embraces the "whole law" (Gal. 5:3). Of course' in that law, some precepts refer to moral duties, others to civil, and others to ceremonial; but all are only different parts of the same law, called, as a whole, "the law." Thus, Jesus quotes from Leviticus 19, as "the law" (Matt. 22:36-40). Now read the whole chapter,Leviticus 19, and you find moral, civil, and ceremonial precepts all mingled together, and often in the same verse. On close examination, every text on which you rely for two laws will fail you. That the "book of the law" did contain moral precepts is settled by Gal. 3:10: "It is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." Where in the book of the law is this written? In Deut. 27:26. Turning there, we have a curse against images (vs. 15): disobedience to parents (vs. 16): adultery (vs. 20); murder (vs. 24); bribery (vs. 25); then comes the verse quoted as "the book of the law." So if the Decalog contains moral law, then the book did too. This shows the utter fallacy of your theory of two laws. The following passage alone overturns the two law theory of Adventists: "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matt. 22:36-40). 1.These two great commandments were "in the law." 2. Neither of them is found in the Decalog. 3. Both of them are in what Adventists call the ceremonial law. 4. Neither of them was spoken by God, nor written by him, nor engraver on stones, nor put into the ark. Both were given by God to Moses privately, and he wrote them with a pen in the book of the law which was placed in the side of the ark. And yet these two precepts are the greatest of all. Jesus said of the first one that it is "the first of all the commandments." Of the two he said, "There is none other commandments greater than these," and "on these hang all the law." So the greatest commandments are in the book of the law, not on the tables of stone. This utterly demolishes the Adventist two law theory. The Ten Commandments on tables of stone, then, were not superior, but inferior, to commandments that were given through Moses in the book of the law. I have personally heard this: "1.Moral: Existed in Eden before the fall. Ceremonial: Was given after the fall." Answer: Where do they read that the Decalog was given in Eden ? Nowhere. This they assume not only without proof, but against the plain record of Exodus 19, 20, and Deuteronomy 5, that it was given at Sinai. So their very first comparison is a failure. again I have heard this: "2. Moral: Was perfect (Ps. 19:7). Ceremonial: Made nothing perfect (Heb. 7:19)." This they regard as one of their clearest proofs of the two laws. But where is the proof? Does it follow that if the law is perfect it will or can make sinners perfect? If it could, then, as Paul says, "righteousness should be by the law" (Gal. 3:21). And "then Christ is dead in vain" (Gal. 2:21). The law itself could be perfect, and yet fail to make anybody perfect. However, I believe that Ps. 19:7 is pointing forward to the "truth which came by Christ," the new testament, "the law of Christ." David's Psalms are full of sparkling prophecies of the accomplishments of the gospel. So there is no proof of two laws in the Old Testament, after all. We have heard Ken say this (not for word for word, but in a sence)...Mostly I have heard from others directly this...that is why I say Ken says it, but in a different direction. 3. Moral: Contains the whole duty of man (Eccl. 12:13). Ceremonial: 'Stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances' (Heb. 9:10)." This is fallacious. There is not a particle of evidence that Eccl. 12:13 refers alone to the Decalog. It manifestly embraces all God's commandments on all subjects. There are scores of duties we owe to God and men not even hinted at in the Decalog. Heb. 9:10 refers only to the service of the priests in the temple, which service "stood only in meats and drinks," etc. Here they fail again. Their "two laws" are made out: 1. By pure assumptions. 2. By misapplications of Scripture. 3. By detached phrases here and there taken out of their proper connections. This is "scrapping." As we see Ken has done so above. Ken your asserting that such opposite things are said of "the law" that it cannot be the same law all the time. To this we should reply: Particular expressions about the law were spoken from widely different standpoints. To apply the Adventists' rule on other Bible subjects would certainly make bad work. Must be Two laws because of opposite things Ken said about them? Are there two Pauls because opposite things said about him? Paul said he was a Jew and a Roman: Acts 21:39; 22:35 Are there two Christs because opposite things said about Him? Christ is a lion and lamb: Rev 5:5-6 Christ is everlasting Father and born of a woman: Isa 9:6; Lk 2:7 Christ is prince of life yet died through weekness: Acts 3:15; 2 Cor 13:4 Christ is a child yet God: Isa 9:6; Heb 1:8 Christ is came to bring peace and division: Lk 2:9-14; Lk 12:51 Law of God vs Law of Moses distinction? The entire Old Testament including the book of the law is referred to as the law of God: Genesis is "The Law": Gal 4:21 Exodus is The Law": Rom 7:7 Leviticus "The Law": Mt 22:35ff Numbers is "The Law" Mt 12:5 Deuteronomy is "The Law": Mt 22:35f Psalms is "The Law": Jn 10:34,45; Rom 3:10-12; 3:13-14,19 The Prophets is "The Law": 1 Cor 14:21 The law of God and Law of Moses used interchangeably: 1 Ch 16:40 burnt offering...written in the law of the lord Lk 2:23 written in the Law of the Lord, "Every first-born male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord", If Ken's arguments are sound, there must of necessity be two Christs. It would be much harder to reconcile the apparently opposite things said of Christ, than it would be the different things said about the law. There were different sides to Christ's nature, yet he was but one person. So there were different sides to the law, but it was only one law. Viewed in the light of its ultimate design, to prepare the way for Christ, Rom. 10:4; Gal. 3:23-25; in its spirit, Rom. 7:6; in its righteousness, Rom. 8:3,4 it was "holy and just and good" (Rom. 7:12). But viewed from the side of its mere letter, Rom. 2:29; 7:6; 2 Cor. 3:6, 7; its numerous rites, ceremonies, penalties, and rigorous exactionsóit was "the ministration of death" (2 Cor. 3:7), and a "yoke of bondage" (Gal. 5:1-3; Acts 15:1-10). Yet it was all one law, simply "the law." and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord, "A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons." Law of the Lord" commands burnt offerings: 2 Chron 31:3: "He also appointed the king's portion of his goods for the burnt offerings, namely, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths and for the new moons and for the fixed festivals, as it is written in the law of the Lord." The book of the law contained the Decalog. The Decalog contained moral precepts and ceremonies. The weekly Sabbath was the chief ceremonial of all the Jewish worship. The Decalog was partly moral and partly ceremonial. So the book of the law was partly ceremonial, and yet contained scores of moral precepts. When you read the 10 commandments, you read Moses: 2 Corinthians 3:3,15 Jesus defined the commandants to include the Law of Moses: Mt 19:17-19 Jesus said: "keep the commandments." The man replied "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" Referring to what Ken, and most Sabbatarians would call "the Ceremonial Law of Moses" Only one place in entire Bible Royal law is used: James 2:8 James 2:8: "If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law, according to the Scripture, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing well" "Love your neighbor" is NOT one of the 10 commandments, but part of what Ken and most Sabbatarians call the ceremonial Law of Moses. Those who despised Moses' Law were put to death (Heb 10:28) People were put to death for violating the Ten Commandments: Deut 13:10; 17:2,6; Ex 31:14 The Law of Moses is the law given at Horeb (10 commandments): Malachi 4:4 Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel. The law" was given by Moses and the law of Moses" includes the Decalog. Not that Moses was the author of it, but it was through him God gave it to Israel. This is stated so distinctly and 10 many times that it is useless to deny it. "The law was given by Moses" (John 1:17). "Did not Moses give you the law?" (John 7:19). "The law which the Lord had commanded by Moses" (Neh. 8:14). |
