| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Bill, Nice to e-meet you. Iíve never been a pastor, but I do have an MDiv in systematic theology and Christian philosophy from the SDA Theological Seminary at AU. And I have spent a number of years as an SDA church professional in a different capacity, but one that brought me into regular contact with a great many SDA theologians as part of my job. Iíve also done a fair amount of study in the area of science and religion. I also know Jon Butler. My name is still on the SDA books, even though, for all practical purposes I ceased being a ìrealî SDA in 1984. Since that time I have attended SDA churches many times, often to an SDA church on the seventh day and a non-SDA church on the first. I was a Presbyterian for ten years, without dropping my SDA membership. Iím delighted youíve decided to share with us. I knew that, theologically speaking, Adventism sprang from Methodism. But I was utterly unaware of the Irvingite connection. I was under the impression that ìthe investigative judgmentî doctrine was a ìhome grownî heresy. Thanks for the new input. Iíll have to look up the Irvingites and their ideas on this. Perhaps you could share a bit more about it too. Such as, Did the Adventists pick up the heresy from the Irvingites AFTER the ìvision in the corn fieldî by Hiram Edson? Or did they just reach back into their memories and ìpull it up,î to use come computerese? In the church I currently attend, a Trinity Evangelical Free Church, many people believe in ìthe rapture.î For some reason I donít see it as very important. Iím familiar with the scriptural texts involved. But I think interpreting Revelation in that way overly reifies that ìRevelation of Jesus Christî in ways I cannot accept and in ways which -- if I believed ìthe raptureî -- would ruin some of the spiritual blessings to be found there for me. The very word ìapocalypseî means ìto remove the coveringî from, say, a statue. One can do justice to the text by thinking of a just-completed sculpture of Jesus by a master artist: And now, at its debut, the artist (evangelist) removes the veil and reveals Jesus to the invited guests. If we try to make Revelation anything more than that ñ say, removing the ìcoverî off of ìlast day events,î we are immediately ìadding toî that precious book and thus violating the curse at its end. What are your thoughts about this? You posted, ìI am simply stating that if we are really going to shed SDA theology, we need to look at the issue of Methodist (Wesleyan Arminian) teaching versus the gospel theology of the Reformation. Not merely freedom from the law-covenant.î Can you enlarge a bit on this? How does Methodism diverge from Reformation theology? I did study Reformation theology at the graduate level, along with Roman Catholic theology ñ including a thesis on the ecumenical movement using the resources at the Roman Catholic Notre Dame University, which is only 20 miles, or so, south of Berrien Springs, where Andrews is located. I also took a number of courses from Earl Hilgert, Edward Heppenstall, Ed Vick, Harold Weiss, Leona Running, Sakai Kubo, Kenneth Strand ñ all of those bright lights, most of which were ìshot downî shortly after I was graduated. And most of those who replaced them are, in my humble opinion, at least, theological dwarves. Would you mind doing a study for us on Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8? Iím taking a class at my main church, Trinity Evangelical Free Church, we are studying the covenants in a ìNew Testament Walkthrough." And just last Sunday morning, the teacher, who happens to be the pastorís wife, who is finishing her Ph.D. in some area of Bible study (can't remember which), said exactly what you did: That all of the Old Testament covenants (Noachic, e.g.) are UN-conditional except for the Mosaic. Still, I think youíre right about most former Adventists. And maybe thatís why we need your help. And I personally have believed for nearly all my life, even while getting a bachelorís in theology and a masterís from SDA schools, that if SDAs and other Christians DO NOT preach the gospel to the ends of the earth, that ìthe very stones would cry out.î I even wrote a story about it which was published in one of my books. What weíre really talking about here is the sovereignty of God! Are we not? I loved your final statement, ìGod will fulfill his word no matter what we think or do. That is the mystery of the gospel.î Indeed! Blessings, Jude | ||
| Steve |
Jude, Excellent question. When I first came to Christ, I thought He couldn't have sinned. Becoming SDA, I was taught, and believed that He could have sinned. Although I'm still not clear on the matter, I'll take your challenge. Bill Twisse wrote above, "God will fulfill his word no matter what we think or do." I have come to realize that this is true. What God sets out to accomplish, comes to pass, REGARDLESS of the whims and misaimings of human beings. If God set out to save the human race by sending Himself, in human flesh, could he have sinned? That would mean that God set out to do something that He could not accomplish. Should I say that Jesus could have sinned, thereby thwarting His own promise, purpose, and plan? (Of course, this is about as difficult as the old philosophy problem of whether God could make a rock so big, that He couldn't lift it?) Of course Jesus could have sinned, BUT HE WOULD NOT DO THAT! Like making a rock so big He could not lift it, it is against His nature, against His very Being. So, to say Jesus could have sinned is granting the right of God to do anything He pleases. But we know God's purpose is only loving and redeeming for us. Therefore, Jesus could not have sinned. ("Would not" may be better phrasing.) I think we have made Jesus too much like us, rather than realizing that He is completely OTHER than us. It is only someone Other than us that could save us, we could not save ourselves. So in answer to the question you finished your post with, I will take 1, 2, and 3. 1. Yes Jesus could have sinned, because God can do anything He wishes. 2. No, Jesus could not have sinned, because that is entirely against His nature. 3. The mystery is in the paradox. Unless we recognize paradox in the Gospel of Jesus and the Grace of God, we will commit one of two errors: A. Jesus could have sinned. This cannot be true, because that would be against His nature. B. Jesus could have sinned, because God can do anything He pleases. So in the final analysis (for me) Jesus WOULD NOT have sinned. Jesus was God in the flesh. God cannot sin, so Jesus would not (and therefore could not) have sinned. I think we make Jesus too human and not enough God by saying that He could have sinned. That is missing the fact that He was God, and God would not have sinned. (Does any of this rambling make sense?, or am I just philosophizing to myself?) Thanks for the challenging thought Jude, Steve | ||
| Bruce H |
Part 2 of three parts CHAPTER 16 CIRCUMCISION GIVEN AS A SIGN, THAT THE JEWS MIGHT BE DRIVEN AWAY FOR THEIR EVIL DEEDS DONE TO CHRIST AND THE CHRISTIANS 3And God himself proclaimed by Moses, speaking thus: ëAnd circumcise the hardness of your hearts, and no longer stiffen the neck. For the Lord your God is both Lord of lords, and a great, mighty, and terrible God, who regardeth not persons, and taketh not rewards.1 And in Leviticus: ëBecause they have transgressed against Me, and despised Me, and because they have walked contrary to Me, I also walked contrary to them, and I shall cut them off in the land of their enemies. Then shall their uncircumcised heart be turned.1 For the circumcision according to the flesh, which is from Abraham, was given for a sign; that you may be separated from other nations, and from us; and that you alone may suffer that which you now justly suffer; and that your land may be desolate, and your cities burned with fire; and that strangers may eat your fruit in your presence, and not one of you may go up to Jerusalem.1 For you are not recognized among the rest of men by any other mark than your fleshly circumcision. For none of you, I suppose, will venture to say that God neither did nor does foresee the events, which are future, nor fore-ordained his deserts for each one. Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him; and now you reject those who hope in Him, and in Him who sent Him God the Almighty and Maker of all things cursing in your synagogues those that believe on Christ. For you have not the power to lay hands upon us, on account of those who now have the mastery. But as often as you could, you did so. Wherefore God, by Isaiah, calls to you, saying, ëBehold how the righteous man perished, and no one regards it. For the righteous man is taken away from before iniquity. His grave shall be in peace, he is taken 380 away from the midst. Draw near hither, ye lawless children, seed of the adulterers, and children of the whore. Against whom have you sported yourselves, and against whom have you opened the mouth, and against whom have you loosened the tongue?1 CHAPTER 18 CHRISTIANS WOULD OBSERVE THE LAW, IF THEY DID NOT KNOW WHY IT WAS INSTITUTED 3For since you have read, O Trypho, as you yourself admitted, the doctrines taught by our Savior, I do not think that I have done foolishly in adding some short utterances of His to the prophetic statements. Wash therefore, and be now clean, and put away iniquity from your souls, as God bids you be washed in this laver, and be circumcised with the true circumcision. For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you, namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us, I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts? 382 CHAPTER 19 CIRCUMCISION UNKNOWN BEFORE ABRAHAM. THE LAW WAS GIVEN BY MOSES ON ACCOUNT OF THE HARDNESS OF THEIR HEARTS 3It is this about which we are at a loss, and with reason, because, while you endure such things, you do not observe all the other customs which we are now discussing.2 3This circumcision is not, however, necessary for all men, but for you alone, in order that, as I have already said, you may suffer these things which you now justly suffer. Nor do we receive that useless baptism of cisterns, for it has nothing to do with this baptism of life. Wherefore also God has announced that you have forsaken Him, the living fountain, and digged for your selves broken cisterns which can hold no water. Even you, who are the circumcised according to the flesh, have need of our circumcision; but we, having the latter, do not require the former. For if it were necessary, as you suppose, God would not have made Adam uncircumcised; would not have had respect to the gifts of Abel when, being uncircumcised, he offered sacrifice; and would not have been pleased with the uncircumcision of Enoch, who was not found, because God had translated him. Lot, being uncircumcised, was saved from Sodom, the angels themselves and the Lord sending him out. Noah was the beginning of our race; yet, uncircumcised, along with his children he went into the ark. Melchizedek, the priest of the Most High, was uncircumcised; to whom also Abraham the first who received circumcision after the flesh, gave tithes, and he blessed him: after whose order God declared, by the mouth of David, that He would establish the everlasting priest. Therefore to you alone this circumcision was necessary, in order that the people may be no people, and the nation no nation; as also Hosea, one of the twelve prophets, declares. Moreover, all those righteous men already mentioned, though they kept no Sabbaths, were pleasing to God; and after them Abraham with all his descendants until Moses, under whom your nation appeared unrighteous and ungrateful to God, making a calf in the wilderness: wherefore God, accommodating Himself to that nation, enjoined them also to offer sacrifices, as if to His name, in order that you 383 might not serve idols. Which precept, however, you have not observed; nay, you sacrificed your children to demons. And you were commanded to keep Sabbaths, that you might retain the memorial of God. For His word makes this announcement, saying, ëThat ye may know that I am God who redeemed you.1 CHAPTER 21 SABBATHS WERE INSTITUTED ON ACCOUNT OF THE PEOPLE1S SINS, AND NOT FOR A WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS 3Moreover, that God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and impose on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness, and that of your fathers, as He declares that for the sake of the nations, lest His name be profaned among them, therefore He permitted some of you to remain alive, these words of His can prove to you: they are narrated by Ezekiel thus: I am the Lord your God; walk in My statutes, and keep My judgments, and take no part in the customs of Egypt; and hallow My Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God. Notwithstanding ye rebelled against Me, and your children walked not in My statutes, neither kept My judgments to do them: which if a man do, he shall live in them. But they polluted My Sabbaths. And I said that I would pour out My fury upon them in the wilderness, to accomplish My anger upon them; yet I did it not; that My name might not be altogether profaned in the sight of the heathen. I led them out before their eyes, and I lifted up Mine hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, and polluted My Sabbaths, and their eyes were after the devices of their fathers. Wherefore I gave them also statutes which were not good, and judgments whereby they shall not live. And I shall pollute them in their own gifts, that I may destroy all that openeth the womb, when I pass through them.1 385 CHAPTER 22 SO ALSO WERE SACRIFICES AND OBLATIONS 3And that you may learn that it was for the sins of your own nation, and for their idolatries and not because there was any necessity for such sacrifices, that they were likewise enjoined, listen to the manner in which He speaks of these by Amos, one of the twelve, saying: ëWoe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is this day of the Lord for you? It is darkness and not light, as when a man flees from the face of a lion, and a bear meets him; and he goes into his house, and leans his hands against the wall, and the serpent bites him. Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness and not light, even very dark, and no brightness in it? I have hated, I have despised your feast-days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies: wherefore, though ye offer Me your burnt-offerings and sacrifices, I will not accept them; neither will I regard the peace-offerings of your presence. Take thou away from Me the multitude of thy songs and psalms; I will not hear thine instruments. But let judgment be rolled down as water, and righteousness as an impassable torrent. Have ye offered unto Me victims and sacrifices in the wilderness, O house of Israel? saith the Lord. And have ye taken up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your God Raphan, the figures which ye made for yourselves? And I will carry you away beyond Damascus, saith the Lord, whose name is the Almighty God. Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria: those who are named among the chiefs have plucked away the first-fruits of the nations: the house of Israel have entered for themselves. Pass all of you unto Calneh, and see; and from thence go ye unto Hamath the great, and go down thence to Gath of the strangers, the noblest of all these kingdoms, if their boundaries are greater than your boundaries. Ye who come to the evil day, who are approaching, and who hold to false Sabbaths; who lie on beds of ivory, and are at ease upon their couches; who eat the lambs out of the flock, and the sucking calves out of the midst of the herd; who applaud at the sound of the musical instruments; they reckon them as stable, and not as fleeting, who drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments, but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Wherefore now they shall be captives, among the first of the nobles who are carried away; and the house 386 of evil-doers shall be removed, and the neighing of horses shall be taken away from Ephraim. And again by Jeremiah: ëCollect your flesh, and sacrifices, and eat: for concerning neither sacrifices nor libations did I command your fathers in the day in which I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt. And again by David, in the forty-ninth Psalm, He thus said: ëThe God of gods, the Lord hath spoken, and called the earth, from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. Out of Zion is the perfection of His beauty. God, even our God, shall come openly, and shall not keep silence. Fire shall burn before Him, and it shall be very temptestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people. Assemble to Him His saints; those that have made a covenant with Him by sacrifices. And the heavens shall declare His righteousness, for God is judge. Hear, O My people, and I will speak to thee; O Israel, and I will testify to thee, I am God, even thy God. I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices; thy burnt-offerings are continually before me. I will take no bullocks out of thy house, nor he-goats out of thy folds: for all the beasts of the field are Mine, the herds and the oxen on the mountains. I know all the fowls of the heavens, and the beauty of the field is Mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell thee; for the world is Mine, and the fullness thereof. Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Offer unto God the sacrifice of praise, and pay thy vows unto the Most High, and call upon Me in the day of trouble, and I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify Me. But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare My statutes, and to take My covenant into thy mouth? But thou hast hated instruction, and cast My words behind thee. When thou sawest a thief, thou consentedst with him; and hast been partaker with the adulterer. Thy mouth has framed evil, and thy tongue has enfolded deceit. Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother1s son. These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I would be like thyself in wickedness. I will reprove thee, and set thy sins in order before thine eyes. Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest He tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. The sacrifice of praise shall glorify Me; and there is the way in which I shall show him My salvation. Accordingly He neither takes sacrifices from you nor commanded them at first to be offered because they are needful to Him, but because of your sins. For indeed the temple, which is called the temple in Jerusalem, He admitted to 387 be His house or court, not as though He needed it, but in order that you, in this view of it, giving yourselves to Him, might not worship idols. And that this is so, Isaiah says: ëWhat house have ye built Me? saith the Lord. Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool.1 CHAPTER 23 THE OPINION OF THE JEWS REGARDING THE LAW DOES AN INJURY TO GOD 3But if we do not admit this, we shall be liable to fall into foolish opinions, as if it were not the same God who existed in the times of Enoch and all the rest, who neither were circumcised after the flesh, nor observed Sabbaths, nor any other rites, seeing that Moses enjoined such observances; or that God has not wished each race of mankind continually to perform the same righteous actions: to admit which, seems to be ridiculous and absurd. Therefore we must confess that He, who is ever the same, has commanded these and such like institutions on account of sinful men, and we must declare Him to be benevolent, foreknowing, needing nothing, righteous and good. But if this be not so, tell me, sir, what you think of those matters which we are investigating.2 And when no one responded: 3Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man. Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. For when Abraham himself was in uncircumcision, he was justified and blessed by reason of the faith which he reposed in God, as the Scripture tells. Moreover, the Scriptures and the facts themselves compel us to admit that He received circumcision for a sign, and not for righteousness. So that it was justly recorded concerning the people, that the soul which shall not be circumcised on the eighth day shall be cut off from his family. And, furthermore, the inability of the female sex to receive fleshly circumcision, proves that this circumcision 388 has been given for a sign, and not for a work of righteousness. For God has given likewise to women the ability to observe all things which are righteous and virtuous; but we see that the bodily form of the male hasbeen made different from bodily form of the female; yet we know that neither of them is righteous or unrighteous merely for this cause, but [is considered righteous] by reason of piety and righteousness. Part 2 of three parts Bruce Heinrich bh bh | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Penetrating, cogent answer, Steve. I have learned from you. Thank you. I love the paradox idea. -Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Ken, where are you? Even if you don't have time or inclination to read all of our answers to your questions, I doubt if there's a single one of us here who doesn't enjoy stepping up to the plate and taking some swings at your fastballs, curveballs, sliders, changeups, etc. You have energized this website like no one else since I've been posting here. Please come back! All is forgiven! Jude | ||
| Bruce H |
Part 3 of three parts Debate between Justin Martyer and Trypho the Jew CHAPTER 24 THE CHRISTIANS1 CIRCUMCISION FAR MORE EXCELLENT 3Now, sirs,2 I said, 3it is possible for us to show how the eighth day possessed a certain mysterious import, which the seventh day did not possess, and which was promulgated by God through these rites. But lest I appear now to diverge to other subjects, understand what I say: the blood of that circumcision is obsolete, and we trust in the blood of salvation; there is now another covenant, and another law has gone forth from Zion. Jesus Christ circumcises all who will as was declared above with knives of stone; that they may be a righteous nation, a people keeping faith, holding to the truth, and maintaining peace. Come then with me, all who fear God, who wish to see the good of Jerusalem. Come, let us go to the light of the Lord; for He has liberated His people, the house of Jacob. Come, all nations; let us gather ourselves together at Jerusalem, no longer plagued by war for the sins of her people. ëFor I was manifest to them that sought Me not; I was found of them that asked not for Me;1 He exclaims by Isaiah: ëI said, Behold Me, unto nations which were not called by My name. I have spread out My hands all the day unto a disobedient and gainsaying people, which walked in a way that was not good, but after their own sins. It is a people that provoketh Me to my face.1 CHAPTER 28 TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS IS OBTAINED BY CHRIST And Trypho replied, 3We heard you adducing this consideration a little ago, and we have given it attention: for, to tell the truth, it is worthy of attention; and that answer which pleases most namely, that so it seemed good to Him does not satisfy me. For this is ever the shift to which those have recourse who are unable to answer the question.2 Then I said, 3Since I bring from the Scriptures and the facts themselves both the proofs and the inculcation of them, do not delay or hesitate to put faith in me, although I am an uncircumcised man; so short a time is left you in which to become proselytes. If Christ1s coming shall have anticipated you, in vain you will repent, in vain you will weep; for He will not hearyou. ëBreak up your fallow ground,1 Jeremiah has cried to the people, ëand sow not among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and circumcise the foreskin of your heart.1 Do not sow, therefore, among thorns, and in untilled ground, whence you can have no fruit. Know Christ; and behold the fallow ground, good, good and fat, is in your hearts. ëFor, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will visit all them that are circumcised in their foreskins; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the sons of Moab. For 393 all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in their hearts.1 Do you see how that God does not mean this circumcision which is given for a sign? For it is of no use to the Egyptians, or the sons of Moab, or the sons of Edom. But though a man be a Scythian or a Persian, if he has the knowledge of God and of His Christ, and keeps the everlasting righteous decrees, he is circumcised with the good and useful circumcision, and is a friend of God, and God rejoices in his gifts and offerings. But I will lay before you, my friends, the very words of God, when He said to the people by Malachi, one of the twelve prophets, ëI have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord; and I shall not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for from the rising of the sun unto its setting My name shall be glorified among the Gentiles; and in every place a sacrifice is offered unto My name, even a pure sacrifice: for My name is honored among the Gentiles, saith the Lord; but ye profane it.1 And by David He said, ëA people whom I have not known, served Me; at the hearing of the ear they obeyed Me.1 CHAPTER 29 CHRIST IS USELESS TO THOSE WHO OBSERVE THE LAW 3Let us glorify God, all nations gathered together; for He has also visited us. Let us glorify Him by the King of glory, by the Lord of hosts. For He has been gracious towards the Gentiles also; and our sacrifices He esteems more grateful than yours. What need, then, have I of circumcision, who have been witnessed to by God? What need have I of that other baptism, who have been baptized with the Holy Ghost? I think that while I mention this, I would persuade even those who are possessed of scanty intelligence. For these words have neither been prepared by me, nor embellished by the art of man; but David sung them, Isaiah preached them, Zechariah proclaimed them, and Moses wrote them. Are you acquainted with them, Trypho? They are contained in your Scriptures, or rather not yours, but ours. For we believe them; but you, though you read them, do not catch the spirit that is in them. Be not offended at, or reproach us with, the bodily uncircumcision with which God has created us; and think it not strange that we drink hot water on the Sabbaths, since God directs 394 the government of the universe on this day equally as on all others; and the priests, as on other days, so on this, are ordered to offer sacrifices; and there are so many righteous men who have performed none of these legal ceremonies, and yet are witnessed to by God Himself. 407 CHAPTER 40 HE RETURNS TO THE MOSAIC LAWS, AND PROVES THAT THEY WERE FIGURES OF THE THINGS WHICH PERTAIN TO CHRIST 3The mystery, then, of the lamb which God enjoined to be sacrificed as the passover, was a type of Christ; with whose blood, in proportion to their faith in Him, they anoint their houses, i.e., themselves, who believe on Him. For that the creation which God created to wit, Adam was a house for the spirit which proceeded from God, you all can understand. And that this injunction was temporary, I prove thus. God does not permit the lamb of the passover to be sacrificed in any other place than where His name was named; knowing that the days will come, after the suffering of Christ, when even the place in Jerusalem shall be given over to your enemies, and all the offerings, in short, shall cease; and that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb. And the two goats which were ordered to be offered during the fast, of which one was sent away as the scape [goat], and the other sacrificed, were similarly declarative of the two appearances of Christ: the first, in which the elders of your people, and the priests, having laid hands on Him and put Him to death, sent Him away as the scope [goat]; and His second appearance, because in the same place in Jerusalem you shall recognize Him whom you have dishonored, and who was an offering for all sinners willing to repent, and keeping the fast which Isaiah speaks of, loosening the terms of the violent contracts, and keeping the other precepts, likewise enumerated by him, and which I have quoted, which those believing in Jesus do. And further, you are aware that the offering of the two goats, which were enjoined to be sacrificed at the fast, was not permitted to take place similarly anywhere else, but only in Jerusalem. 409 CHAPTER 42 THE BELLS ON THE PRIEST1S ROBE WERE A FIGURE OF THE APOSTLES 3Moreover, the prescription that twelve bells be attached to the [robe] of the high priest, which hung down to the feet, was a symbol of the twelve apostles, who depend on the power of Christ, the eternal Priest; and through their voice it is that all the earth has been filled with the glory and grace of God and of His Christ. Wherefore David also says: ëTheir sound has gone forth into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.1 And Isaiah speaks as if he were personating the apostles, when they say to Christ that they believe not in their own report, but in the power of Him who sent them. And so he says: ëLord, who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? We have preached before Him as if [He were] a child, as if a root in a dry ground.1 (And what follows in order of the prophecy already quoted.) But when the passage speaks as from the lips of many, ëWe have preached before Him,1 and adds, ëas if a child,1 it signifies that the wicked shall become subject to Him, and shall obey His command, and that all shall become as one child. Such a thing as you may witness in the body: although the members are enumerated as many, all are called one, and are a body. For, indeed, a commonwealth and a church, though many individuals in number, are in fact as one, called and addressed by one appellation. And in short, sirs,2 said I, 3by enumerating all the other appointments of Moses I can demonstrate that they were types, and symbols, and declarations of those things which would happen to Christ, of those who it was foreknown were to believe in Him, and of those things which would also be done by Christ Himself. But since what I have now enumerated appears to me to be sufficient, I revert again to the order of the discourse. 410 CHAPTER 43 HE CONCLUDES THAT THE LAW HAD AN END IN CHRIST, WHO WAS BORN OF THE VIRGIN 3As, then, circumcision began with Abraham, and the Sabbath and sacrifices and offerings and feasts with Moses, and it has been proved they were enjoined on account of the hardness of your people1s heart, so it was necessary, in accordance with the Father1s will, that they should have an end in Him who was born of a virgin, of the family of Abraham and tribe of Judah, and of David; in Christ the Son of God, who was proclaimed as about to come to all the world, to be the everlasting law and the everlasting covenant, even as the forementioned prophecies show. And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God1s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it. But since the mystery of His birth now demands our attention I shall speak of it. Isaiah then asserted in regard to the generation of Christ, that it could not be declared by man, in words already quoted: ëWho shall declare His generation? for His life is taken from the earth: for the transgressions of my people was He led to death.1 The Spirit of prophecy thus affirmed that the generation of Him who was to die, that we sinful men might be healed by His stripes, was such as could not be declared. Furthermore, that the men who believe in Him may possess the knowledge of the manner in which He came into the world, the Spirit of prophecy by the same Isaiah foretold how it would happen thus: ëAnd the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, Ask for thyself a sign from the Lord thy God, in the depth, or in the height. And Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord. And Isaiah said, Hear then, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to contend with men, and how do you contend with the Lord? Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and his name shall be called Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, before he knows or prefers the evil, and chooses out the good; for before the child knows good or ill, he rejects evil by choosing out the good. For before the child knows how to call father or mother, he shall receive the power of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria in presence of the king of Assyria. And the land shall be 411 forsaken, which thou shalt with difficulty endure in consequence of the presence of its two kings. But God shall bring on thee, and on thy people, and on the house of thy father, days which have not yet come upon thee since the day in which Ephraim took away from Judah the king of Assyria.1 Now it is evident to all, that in the race of Abraham according to the flesh no one has been born of a virgin, or is said to have been born [of a virgin], save this our Christ. But since you and your teachers venture to affirm that in the prophecy of Isaiah it is not said, ëBehold, the virgin shall conceive,1 but, ëBehold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son;1 and [since] you explain the prophecy as if [it referred] to Hezekiah, who was your king, I shall endeavor to discuss shortly this point in opposition to you, and to show that reference is made to Him who is acknowledged by us as Christ. CHAPTER 44 THE JEWS IN VAIN PROMISE THEMSELVES SALVATION, WHICH CANNOT BE OBTAINED EXCEPT THROUGH CHRIST 3For thus, so far as you are concerned, I shall be found in all respects innocent, if I strive earnestly to persuade you by bringing forward demonstrations. But if you remain hard-hearted, or weak in [forming] a resolution, on account of death, which is the lot of the Christians, and are unwilling to assent to the truth, you shall appear as the authors of your own [evils]. And you deceive yourselves while you fancy that, because you are the seed of Abraham after the flesh, therefore you shall fully inherit the good things announced to be bestowed by God through Christ. For no one, not even of them, has anything to look for, but only those who in mind are assimilated to the faith of Abraham, and who have recognized all the mysteries: for I say, that some injunctions were laid on you in reference to the worship of God and practice of righteousness; but some injunctions and acts were likewise mentioned in reference to the mystery of Christ, on account of the hardness of your people1s hearts. And that this is so, God makes known in Ezekiel, [when] He said concerning it: ëIf Noah and Jacob and Daniel should beg either sons or daughters, the request would not be granted them.1 And in Isaiah, of the very same matter He 412 spake thus: ëThe Lord God said, they shall both go forth and look on the members [of the bodies] of the men that have transgressed. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be a gazing-stock to all flesh.1 So that it becomes you to eradicate this hope from your souls, and hasten to know in what way forgiveness of sins, and a hope of inheriting the promised good things, shall be yours. But there is no other [way] than this, to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins; and for the rest, to live sinless lives.2 CHAPTER 45 THOSE WHO WERE RIGHTEOUS BEFORE AND UNDER THE LAW SHALL BE SAVED BY CHRIST And Trypho said, 3If I seem to interrupt these matters, which you say must be investigated, yet the question which I mean to put is urgent. Suffer me first.2 And I replied, 3Ask whatever you please, as it occurs to you; and I shall endeavor, after questions and answers, to resume and complete the discourse.2 Then he said, 3Tell me, then, shall those who lived according to the law given by Moses, live in the same manner with Jacob, Enoch, and Noah, in the resurrection of the dead, or not?2 I replied to him, 3When I quoted, sir, the words spoken by Ezekiel, that ëeven if Noah and Daniel and Jacob were to beg sons and daughters, the request would not be granted them,1 but that each one, that is to say, shall be saved by his own righteousness, I said also, that those who regulated their lives by the law of Moses would in like manner be saved. For what in the law of Moses is naturally good, and pious, and righteous, and has been prescribed to be done by those who obey it; and what was appointed to be performed by reason of the hardness of the people1s hearts; was similarly recorded, and done also by those who were under the law. Since those who did that which is universally, naturally, and eternally good are pleasing to God, they shall be saved through this Christ in the resurrection equally 413 with those righteous men who were before them, namely Noah, and Enoch, and Jacob, and whoever else there be, along with those who have known this Christ, Son of God, who was before the morning star and the moon, and submitted to become incarnate, and be born of this virgin of the family of David, in order that, by this dispensation, the serpent that sinned from the beginning, and the angels like him, may be destroyed, and that death may be contemned, and for ever quit, at the second coming of the Christ Himself, those who believe in Him and live acceptably, and be no more: when some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire; but others shall exist in freedom from suffering, from corruption, and from grief, and in immortality.2 CHAPTER 46 TRYPHO ASKS WHETHER A MAN WHO KEEPS THE LAW EVEN NOW WILL BE SAVED. JUSTIN PROVES THAT IT CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO RIGHTEOUSNESS 3But if some, even now, wish to live in the observance of the institutions given by Moses, and yet believe in this Jesus who was crucified, recognizing Him to be the Christ of God, and that it is given to Him to be absolute Judge of all, and that His is the everlasting kingdom, can they also be saved?2 he inquired of me. And I replied, 3Let us consider that also together, whether one may now observe all the Mosaic institutions.2 And he answered, 3No. For we know that, as you said, it is not possible either anywhere to sacrifice the lamb of the passover, or to offer the goats ordered for the fast; or, in short, [to present] all the other offerings.2 And I said, 3Tell [me] then yourself, I pray, some things which can be observed; for you will be persuaded that, though a man does not keep or has not performed the eternal decrees, he may assuredly be saved.2 Then he replied, 3To keep the Sabbath, to be circumcised, to observe months, and to be washed if you touch anything prohibited by Moses, or after sexual intercourse.2 414 And I said, 3Do you think that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, and Job, and all the rest before or after them equally righteous, also Sarah the wife ofAbraham, Rebekah the wife of Isaac, Rachel the wife of Jacob, and Leah, and all the rest of them, until the mother of Moses the faithful servant, who observed none of these [statutes], will be saved?2 And Trypho answered, 3Were not Abraham and his descendants circumcised?2 And I said, 3I know that Abraham and his descendants were circumcised. The reason why circumcision was given to them I stated at length in what has gone before; and if what has been said does not convince you, let us again search into the matter. But you are aware that, up to Moses, no one in fact who was righteous observed any of these rites at all of which we are talking, or received one commandment to observe, except that of circumcision, which began from Abraham.2 And he replied, 3We know it, and admit that they are saved.2 Then I returned answer, 3You perceive that God by Moses laid all such ordinances upon you on account of the hardness of your people1s hearts, in order that, by the large number of them, you might keep God continually, and in every action, before your eyes, and never begin to act unjustly or impiously. For He enjoined you to place around you [a fringe] of purple dye, in order that you might not forget God; and He commanded you to wear a phylactery, certain characters, which indeed we consider holy, being engraved on very thin parchment; and by these means stirring you up to retain a constant remembrance of God: at the same time, however, convincing you, that in your hearts you have not even a faint remembrance of God1s worship. Yet not even so were you dissuaded from idolatry: for in the times of Elijah, when [God] recounted the number of those who had not bowed the knee to Baal, He said the number was seven thousand; and in Isaiah He rebukes you for having sacrificed your children to idols. But we, because we refuse to sacrifice to those to whom we were of old accustomed to sacrifice, undergo extreme penalties, and rejoice indeath, believing that God will raise us up by His Christ, and will make us incorruptible, and undisturbed, and immortal; and we know that the ordinances imposed by reason of the hardness of your people1s hearts, contribute nothing to the performance of righteousness and of piety.2 Bruce Heinrich BH BH | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi Jude: I'mmmmmm Baaaaaack! I thought this might be appropriate at this time. There is an evident forged chain of "Sunday evidences" used by Sunday observers to vindicate their position. The most notable and fradulent ones are concerning the "early church fathers". Evidently, the traditional church was sloppy in trying to cover up the tell-tale marks. There are some questions to be answered: Were the martyrs of Pliny's time tested by the question, "Hast thou kept the Lord's day"? Were Ignatius's epistles interpolated? What did Justin Martyr really say? Theophilus of Antioch, or of Alexandria? Here we expose a forged chain of tradition. Let's look into the study of Sir Wm. Domville, who took pains carefully to trace the matter, making use of the Acta primorium Martyrum sincera et selecta, by Ruinart (1657-1709). It was proposed that during the time of Pliny, Christians were asked "Dominicum servasti?" (Hast thou kept the Lord's day?) when put to trial. Later, it was then translated as "Hold you to Sunday?" thus attributing the "Lord's day" to Sunday. If you dig into history, you will find out that the question "Domunicum servasti?" or anything similar to it was never was mentioned until two hundred years after the time of Pliny. The martyrdom referred to is that of Saturninus, Dativ and others of Abitina in Africa, which is said to have occured at the time of the Diocletian persecution. Ruinart designates the proper date at 304 A. D. More evidence for this position: "The Acta Saturnini, Dativi, etc., from the time of [the] Diocletian are a touching testimony (Ruinart, pp. 409-419, ed. I). It is perhaps not superfluous to correct incidentally a misunderstanding of Binterim (Denkw. V. 1, 127, note). He fancied a reference to an old ecclesiastical law concerning Sunday observance in the exclamation of the old presbyter Saturnin: Intermitti Dominicum non protest, lex sic jubet; and afterward once more: Lex sic docet (p. 414 Ruinart). The neuter Dominicum never signifies Sunday, but the Lord's Supper. (Convivinum dominicum, Tertull. Ad uxor. 11, 4.)" Prof. Th. Zahn, D. D., in his "History of the Sunday:" Evidence for the interpolation of the epistles of Ignatius: "To such an extent have the epistles of Ignatius been corrupted by interpolation (see Chevallier, Introd. 43-54), that even those considered genuine (among which is the one above quoted) were suspected by Lardner and Beausobre to have been tampered with (Domville, vol. I, 241), and have recently been pronounced by Mr. Cureton (with whom Lipsius agrees) to have been copiously interpolated for the same dogmatical purposes which prompted to the forgery of four of the seven, and by the same forging hand. (Cureton's Corpus Ignatianum, London, 1849; and Lipsius in Jour, of the Historico-Theological Society of Germany for 1856.) But not to insist upon this, it is more important to mention that a passage still frequently quoted in popular treatises from one of the epistles as genuine, has for two centuries past been rejected by every scholar as spurious. The words are: 'Let us therefore no longer observe Sabbaths after the manner of the Jews; . . . but let every one of you observe Sabbaths in a spiritual manner, rejoicing in the meditation of the law; . . . . and after the Sabbath day, let every lover of Christ celebrate the Lord's day, which is consecrated to our Lord's resurrection, and is the queen and chief of all days.' (Domville, vol. I, 245-6.)" Cox, vol. I, pp. 119, 120 It is clear that the writings of Ignatius and others of the postapostolic period have been shamefully interpolated for "dogmatical purposes," - in this instance manifestly to smuggle in Sunday as the "Lord's day"! Another agitating fraud are the misquotes of Justin Martyr. Here is a quote from Justin Martyrs A. D. 140 according to the Dictionary of the Holy Bible published by the American Tract Society in 1886: "Justin Martyr, in the second century, observes that 'on the Lord's day all Christians in the city or country meet together, because that is the day of our Lord's resurrection.'" Here are his words correctly quoted [from Justin Martyr's "First Apology," chap. 67.]: "And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles, or the writings of the prophets, are read, as long as time permits," Exactly no mention of the "Lord's resurrection" in the correct quote! Justin DOES speak of the day called Sunday. But that he may be made to help establish its title to the name of the "Lord's day", his words are deliberately changed. Now, we can go on and on digging up through history. But that is a waste of time. Why listen to the fraudulent teachings of men and their traditions? Look to scripture! That way you won't have to try to get around things to 'prove' the "Church fathers" observed and sanctified Sunday. It is a deception, diverting attention from God's Word, and into the works of fallible men! Now, tell me, whom will you serve? I will say as Joshua did: "As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD!" Ken | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken, Great to have you back! You said: "I'mmmmmm Baaaaaack!" Is that an indication that you might be a wolf in sheep's clothing? Baaaaaaack? Sorry, that was just to good to pass up. Seriously, why are you not addressing very many of the questions? You keep unloading all your own belief's without answering pointed questions very often? See if you can find it in your heart to fill in the questions. By the way, I have this KJ Only Controvery book for you now. I really think it would be a nice break for you to read it. Let's figure out how to get it to you. Peace always......Maryann | ||
| jtree |
Ken, for me and my Mouse, we will serve the LORD! My house and also my mouse...click click. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hey buddy Ken! Nice to know you're baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack! Incidentally, all that research you just posted, you'd better pipe it all instantly to: Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, author of the SDA magnum opus on how the seventh-day lost out to the first in the earliest Christian church. It's called FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY (Rome: Pontifical Gregorian University Press, 1977). He's the first non-Catholic to graduate from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. He received a gold medal from Pope Paul VI for graduating with the academic distinction of summa cum laude. Currently Dr. Bacchiocchi teaches theology and church history at Andres University. And here he's gone to all that work and ........ HE'S NEVER HEARD OF ALL THAT HOGWASH YOU POSTED THAT IS EVEN NOW RUNNING DOWN MY COMPUTER SCREEN! HEEEEEEEEEEELP! So hop to! Start piping! And clean off my computer screen too! Jude | ||
| jtree |
Circumcised "ACCORDING TO THE LAW" Luke 2:21-24 Our Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled all the law for us, from the beginning to the end of His manhood, that He might by his obedience unto death bring in everlasting righteousness for us and put away our sins forever, and that he might do so in a way that honors God. Even as He was coming into the world, our Surety cried, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God!" He did the will of God as a man, all the days of His life. When he had done it completely, He cried, "It is finished," and breathed out his life in triumphant death. It is by his obedience to the will of God for us as our Surety that we are "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ" (Heb. 10:7; John 19:30; Heb. 10:10). In Luke 2:21-24, we see our Savior, Mediator, Surety, and Substitute beginning to fulfil the law of God in the room and stead of His people. When He was just a baby, eight days old, He was circumcised "according to the law" Circumcision was instituted under the law as a symbol of the new birth, that circumcision made without hands by the Spirit of God. The cutting away the filth of the flesh showed the necessity of God's elect being purified by his grace (Phil. 3:3; Col. 2:10-12; Tit. 3:4-7). But Christ had no sin. Why was he circumcised? The answer is obvious. He was circumcised as our Surety. Identification Circumcision identified the Son of God as one with Abraham's seed whom he came to save (Heb :16-17). He passed by the fallen angels. He passed Adam's seed. He took hold of Abraham's seed, to save Abraham's seed, God's elect, his covenant people. Understand this. Our Lord Jesus Christ did not come to save Adam's race. He did not die to redeem Adam's race. He did not fulfil the law for Adam's race. If he had, Adam's race would be saved. Christ took hold of Abraham's seed, came to save, died for, and fulfilled all the law for Abraham's seed, God's chosen race, His elect nation, His own peculiar people. Blood Shedding Circumcision required the shedding of blood. Here the God-man shed a few drops of blood by a painful act done to Him by order of God's law, as a foreshadowing of the pouring out of his life's blood unto death, by the order of God's law, in the most painful, ignominious manner possible. Debtor To Do The Whole Law By submitting to this ordinance of the law, our blessed Savior voluntarily made Himself a debtor to do the whole law for us (Gal 5:3). Circumcision was the legally required pledge of every Israelite that He was a debtor to keep the whole law. Our Lord Jesus Christ, by being circumcised, did as it were set His hand to being made sin for us. Christ hereby obliged Himself to keep the whole law for us, and to offer, not the blood of bulls and goats, but His own blood to satisfy the law's penalty for our sins. Joshua | ||
| Plain Patti |
There is an evident forged chain of "Sunday evidences" used by Sunday observers to vindicate their position. Ken, WHERE are these Sunday observers of which you speak? Would the Sunday observers among us, please speak up? You are barking up a nonexistent tree. Or you are arguing with the arrogant and patently false statements of the RCC, but none of us here, no mainstream Protestants that I know of "observe Sunday." And surely you are not going to equate assembling for church fellowship on a certain day to "keeping it holy." SDAs themselves assemble on many and various days, sometimes, during revivals and evangelistic and camp meetings, even on Sunday. Does this mean that they are then giving obeisance to the RCC and "observing Sunday"? Of course not! So please find another approach, because your notion that all Protestants "observe Sunday" is passe' and irrelevant. That way you won't have to try to get around things to 'prove' the "Church fathers" observed and sanctified Sunday. It is a deception, diverting attention from God's Word, and into the works of fallible men! Now, tell me, whom will you serve? Why do you persist in jousting at windmills? Listen to me please, and understand that NO ONE HERE IS ARGUING THAT THE SANCTITY OF THE SABBATH WAS PASSED ON TO THE FIRST DAY. In fact, most of us choose to regard every day the same. While Sunday was a day of celebration in memorial to the resurrection, it was never observed as the sabbath by the early church fathers. | ||
| Plain Patti |
A re-post, just for Ken! (No need to thank me!) Sabbath to Sunday? It is a misconception of SDAism (and RCism) that "sabbath-keeping" was changed to "Sunday-keeping." I believe this misconception comes mainly, not from the braggadocious claims of RCism itself, but from the founding fathers of this country. The Puritans were a harshly legalistic community. Their influence on our country and on American Christianity remains even today. It was this spirit of legalism that begat all manner of spiritual woes from atrocities (the witch hunts of the late 1700s) to Sunday "sabbath-keeping." Whether our Pietist ancestors truly believed that Sunday was the day originally blessed by God or whether the sanctity of the sabbath was transferred to the first day is unclear. Regardless, they strictly enforced the abstinence of work on what they called "the sabbath," Sunday. All of our "blue laws" stem from our cultural ancestors, the Protestant Separatists. This is not to say that Catholicism did not instigate the notion of Sunday sabbath-keeping hundreds of years ago. Of course, any people that consider themselves "Protestant" are thusly and rightly recognizing their historic roots in the Roman Catholic church. The Protestants are a product of the Catholic system. And so, many of the ideas and theories established by the great church that ruled the Western world for a millenium and a half have been maintained by her offspring. This is not all bad. There are many orthodox truths in Catholicism, such as the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus. But there are many vestiges of medieval tradition also, one of these being that the early Christians transferred the sanctity of the seventh day sabbath to the first day. This is not the case. The first day was never considered a "holy sabbath" by the early Christians. The first day became a celebration of the resurrection of the Lord. Many early Christians, quite naturally, were Jewish, and still observed the sabbath according to the law and celebrated the resurrection on Sunday. The sabbath became known as a solemn day, and Sunday as a feast day. Very soon, people, being hedonistic by nature, began to look forward to the close of the sabbath and the beginning of the day of celebration. There was never a transfer of the sanctity of the sabbath and its observance to the first day. Sunday was not the sabbath, and was never regarded as such by the early Christians. The church has gone through repeated stages of alternating "revival" and secularization throughout its history. During the stages of "revival," there was, inevitably, just as in the good ol' evangelistic meetings of today, a call for repentance and moral and spiritual regeneration, not only for the individual, but for the church as a whole. Over the centuries, things evolve. Somewhere in the early church, during one period of revival, someone decided that one of the things that had been neglected was the observance of the fourth commandment--or third, depending upon which version was common at the time. The RCC takes the credit and glory of changing the idea of celebrating the resurrection on Sunday to "transferring the sanctity" of the sabbath of the commandment to the first day of the week. This is purely a Catholic invention, and as SDAs rightly call it, an indication of the arrogance of that Medieval system. It only remained for the RCC to reach the height (or, perhaps, depths) of its arrogance by claiming it as a sign of its authority, even over the commands of God. The early Christians did not transfer sabbath observance to the first day; that is, they did not replace the sabbath with Sunday. They merely celebrated the confirmation of that Reality on the first day, the day that Christ had risen from the dead. The sabbath sort of fell by the wayside with the rest of their Judaic habits, as mentioned by Paul, such as circumcision, abstaining from meats offered to idols, and the entire sacrificial system. I believe that the reason there is little or no discussion about the sabbath/Sunday issue in the "canon" is because the sabbath was not a grave issue for the early Christians. Paul's attitude toward sabbath observance is rather laissez-faire; he only mentioned it twice, and both times it was to say that one should not judge or be judged on the basis of it: One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. Romans 14:5, 6 This is something that struck me in my study of the New Testament. 1. The Gospel was to go first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles, correct? 2. If the Gospel was to go to the Gentiles, via Paul and others, and if part of the Gospel was to teach the Gentiles to follow Judaic customs, such as sabbath-keeping, then why is there no clear instruction to the Gentiles in the Epistles (even the book of James) that the Judaic laws--specifically the sabbath--were binding upon them? Instead, what we see in the writings of Paul is that one must not judge others in terms of the Judaic laws--circumcision, observance of holy days (sabbaths), eating unclean meats and foods offered to idols. Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to help sort out and reconcile differences of opinions among the Jewish believers as to the imposition of the requirements of the Judaic laws upon the Gentiles. Again, the glaring issue of the time was not the sabbath, but circumcision. Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." 6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" The consensus of this committee was that: 19 ". . .we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." Clearly, here the church leaders in Jerusalem missed a golden opportunity to establish and/or reinforce the necessity of observing the sabbath. I think this is further evidence that the sabbath was not considered to be binding for Christians. Not only that, but there is an strong cry against the heavy burden of the Judaic traditions: why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? While this does not "prove" that the habits of the early Christian believers did not include sabbath-keeping, the silence on the necessity to keep the sabbath speaks very loudly. | ||
| jtree |
"ACCORDING TO THE LAW" Luke 2:21-24 Everything our Savior did as a man He did "according to the law." When the Lord Jesus Christ came into the world to save His people from their sins, He willingly put Himself under the law and became voluntarily subject to the law in all things as a man. He did so because God cannot justify the guilty except upon the grounds of strict justice. Righteousness must be maintained and justice must be satisfied in the exercise of mercy, love, and grace. He who is our God and Savior is "a just God and a Savior" (Isa. 45:20). "By mercy and truth iniquity is purged" (Prov. 16:6). Made Under The Law Therefore, "when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons" (Gal. 4:4-5). Now, since His work is finished, since He has brought in an everlasting righteousness and made an end of sin for His elect, Isaiah's prophecy is fulfilled. "The LORD is well pleased for His righteousness' sake," to justify us and forgive our sins. Our Redeemer has magnified the law and made it honorable (Isaiah 42:21). Though the yoke of the law was a heavy yoke, and only a shadow of good things to come, if we would have those good things, Christ must bear the law's heavy yoke for us. And He did it as our willing Substitute and Surety. Though the carnal ordinances of the law were what the Holy Spirit calls, "weak and beggarly elements," and but the "rudiments of the world," our Lord Jesus Christ submitted to all the ordinances and institutions of the law as a man, that He might fulfil the law for us and bring it to an honorable end. The End Of The Law Having fulfilled all the law in the room and stead of His people, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Rom. 10:4). He is the end of the law in every sense of the word. He is the end of the law as its object. The law was given to point us to Christ, to shut us up to Christ. Now that Christ has come, the law has no other purpose. He fulfilled it. Christ is the end of the law's curse. The curse of the law was spent on our Substitute. Therefore, those who are redeemed by His blood have no fear of being cursed by the law (Gal. 3:13). Our Lord Jesus Christ is the end of the law's power. Having slain our Substitute, all who are in Him representatively are now dead to the law (Rom. 7:4). He is also the end of the law's rule. Being made free from sin in Christ, all believer's are free from the law's rule. We are now ruled, motivated, and governed by the grace of God in Christ, not the law of God (Rom. 6:14-15). The Law Established By Faith God's holy law requires from all men perfect righteousness and complete satisfaction. It will not bend. It will not accept sincerity, repentance, or the greatest, most costly sacrifices men can make. How, then, can fallen, guilty, depraved sinners meet the law's demands? How can we escape the wrath of God? There is only one way. - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Our faith in Christ does not satisfy the law's demands; but Christ, the Object of our faith, does. Thus, when we sinners, who can never meet the law's demands, believe on Christ, "we establish the law" (Rom. 3:31). Joshua | ||
| jtree |
"NOW I SEE" John 9:25 I saw my sin. God the Holy Spirit convinced me of my sin (John 16:8), of the sinfulness of my sinful deeds, the sinfulness of my heart and nature, and the sinfulness of my righteousness. I saw that even my noblest deeds are filthy rags in God's sight. I saw the infinite holiness of God's law. The law of God requires perfection. God cannot and will not accept anything less than absolute perfection (Lev. 22:21). Whatever I bring to God, if He accepts it, must be perfect. I saw that the only hope for sinners is a perfect substitute. I must have someone to obey the law and accomplish righteousness for me. I must have someone to make an infinite, justice satisfying atonement for my sins. That Substitute I found in Jesus Christ the Son of God (Rom. 3:24-26; 2 Cor. 5:21). I saw that faith in Christ is the only way a sinner can ever find acceptance with God. God's gracious salvation comes to sinners through faith in Christ (Eph, 2:8). All who believe on the Son of God have everlasting life (John 3:36). But I could not believe. I could not muster faith from within myself. And I saw that faith in Christ is the gift of God. Faith in Christ is not within the realm of human ability. It is the gift of God (John 1:12-13; Eph. 2:8-9). Faith is the operation of God, the work of grace in a man's soul (Col. 2:12). It is not the result of man's "free will." Faith is given to sinners according to God's sovereign will (Rom. 9:16). By these five truths I was slain; all hope in myself was gone. And I was compelled to fall down before Christ, suing for mercy, crying, "God, be merciful to me, the sinnerÖLord, if you will, you can make me whole." Now, "I through the law am dead to the law," because I have been crucified with Christ (Gal. 2:19-21), dead to the law absolutely! There is no hope held out to any man in the law. The sinner's only hope of salvation is faith in Christ. You must trust the Son of God. By faith in Christ, we who believe fulfill the law of God (Rom. 3:31). We must never allow anyone to bring us back under the yoke of the law (Gal. 5:1). Joshua | ||
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THE SEED AND THE PROMISE Galatians 3:19-23 The promised Seed is Christ. The promise is the promise God the Father made to God the Son before the world began. That promise was the promised gift of grace, salvation, and eternal life by the Holy Spirit to his elect. It was a promise made on condition of Christ's obedience and death, upon condition of righteousness established by Him for us as our Substitute. The law given at Mt. Sinai was given to Israel in the hands of a mediator who was but a man. But the promise was given to Christ our Mediator from God our Father; and these two are one God. Look at the Scriptures. That is the meaning of Paul's words in verse 20 ó "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one." God the Father promised eternal life to His elect before the world began. But He made the promise to Christ His Son as our covenant Surety and Mediator (Tit. 1:1-3). We who believe have obtained this promise of eternal life in Christ because the Lord Jesus Christ purchased it and effectually obtained it for the seed of Abraham, Abraham's true, spiritual seed (Gal. 3:13-14; Heb. 9:12; 2:16). Galatians 3:21 "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." What a plain statement this is. It is utterly irrefutable. The law which was given by Moses cannot be contrary to the promise of eternal life to God's elect before the world began. It is monstrously absurd to imagine that God would sacrifice his darling Son for nothing! If righteousness could be obtained by us doing something, God would never have sacrificed his Son at Calvary to bring in righteousness for us. Galatians 3:22-23 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed." The law of God was not given to make us righteous, but to shut us up to Christ. Being set forth in Holy Scripture, it concludes all under sin. We are all under sin by birth, by nature, by choice, and by practice (Rom. 3:19-23). We lived in spiritual death in sin's corruption, under sin's dominion, under its curse, with its penalty hanging over our heads. Here's the reason ó "That the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." Grace, salvation, and eternal life come to chosen sinners upon the ground of and because of the faith, faithfulness, or faithful obedience of Jesus Christ as our Substitute. It was Christ who alone brought in everlasting righteousness for us. It was Christ alone who redeemed us. It was Christ alone who put away our sins. It was Christ alone who made atonement for us by satisfying the justice of God with His own blood. It was Christ alone who, with His own blood, obtained eternal life for us! Our faith in Him has no part in the accomplishment of these things! What does faith do? Not a blessed thing! Faith receives! Believing God, we have grace, salvation, and eternal life by God the Holy Spirit, because God the Father promised it and God the Son purchased it! "Salvation is of the LORD!" Before faith came, that is before we came to trust Christ, before God gave us faith in His Son, "we were kept under the law." We were by nature children of wrath, just like everyone else. Though we were justified from eternity by God's decree and justified at Calvary by Christ's blood atonement, we knew nothing about it. We lived under the curse and condemnation of God's law. Our first convictions, our first thoughts toward God, filled us with terror. When the law came, sin revived, and I died. (Rom. 7:9). That is what every believer has experienced. Thus, by the terror of God's holy law on our consciences damning us, we were shut up to Christ. "Shut up unto the faith which should afterward be evealed." In His Name.. Joshua | ||
| jtree |
"DO YE NOT HEAR THE LAW?" Galatians 4:21 The law of God is that which we ought to dread above all things, for the sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is the law. The law condemns us and demands our execution. In solemn terms, it appoints for us a place among the damned. "For it is written, Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Gal. 3:10). Yet, man has a strange infatuation with the law. Like the gnat that is drawn to the candle that will destroy it, man by nature is drawn to the law for salvation, when all the law can give is destruction. The law can do nothing else but reveal sin and pronounce condemnation on the sinner (Rom. 3:19-20). It has no other purpose. Yet, we cannot get men to flee from the law. Foolish men are so enamored with their own self- righteousness and their own self-worth that they will cling to the law with a death-grip, though there is nothing to cling to. They prefer Sinai to Calvary, though Sinai offers them nothing but death. Listen to the Word of God. If the opinions of men, or your own opinions contradict the Word of God, "Let God be true and every man a liar." Here are four facts stated so plainly in Holy Scripture that error regarding them is utterly inexcusable. 1. The law was never given to save sinners; and it can never serve that purpose (Gal. 2:16). 2. The law was never given to motivate the people of God to holiness and service; and it cannot serve that purpose. The one thing that God requires is a willing heart (2 Cor. 8:12; 1 Cor. 6:19-20; Rom. 12:1-2). 3. The law was never given as a rule of life, or standard of conduct for the believer; and it cannot serve that purpose (Rom. 3:28, 31; 1 John 3:23). 4. The law was not given to produce sanctification in the believer; or even to be a measure of sanctification, and it cannot serve such purposes (Gal. 3:1-3). Christ is our sanctification! The law was given to point men to Christ for salvation. The law was given to show man his guilt, his sin, and his need of a Substitute. This is the law's only purpose; and it serves that purpose very well (Rom. 3:19-22). The thunders of Sinai drive us away from the mountain of darkness and death and point us with its lightening bolts to Calvary and to Christ who is the end of the law. In the language of Inspiration, "The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal. 5:24-25). Joshua | ||
| jtree |
Ken, Another question(s) for you to answer (or in this case we have seen, you don't answer!) Are you a mountain climber by chance? If your answer is no, Then why do you attempt to reach the throne of God by climbing Mt. Sinai? We here at FAF, I believe..refuse to keep a legal sabbath day, because God forbids it (Col. 2:16). Our Sabbath is Christ. We keep the sabbath of faith. Trusting our all-sufficient Substitute, relying upon his finished work, we cease from our own works and rest in Him. As for those who seek God's favor by their obedience to the law, let them be warned ó "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Show me a man who trusts his own righteousness, his own obedience, his own devotion, his own feelings, or anything else of his own, and I will show you a man who is entirely lost, a man to whom the blood of Christ, the righteousness of Christ, and the grace of Christ is worthless. Joshua | ||
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THE CHRISTIAN SABBATH: WHAT IS THE CHRISTIAN SABBATH? Our English word sabbath derives from the Greek sabbaton, which in turn derives from the Hebrew sabbat. A sabbath is "a cessation from activity; rest." Our question therefore is "What is the Christian's rest? In what does he cease from work?" The Christian sabbath is not the "sabbath of creation" mentioned in Genesis 2:1-3: "... And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done...." This is the first HINT of a sabbath in the Bible. It was a day of rest. This sabbath is not the Christian sabbath because: 1) It was observed by God alone at the completion of His work of creation (1:1-2:1). Furthermore, this sabbath of God was not merely a day of rest, but a perpetual rest, as His work of creation was once-for-all completed (2:1). Man, who had been created on the sixth day (1:26-31), could not rest from work on this day because he had done no work. 2) The Bible contains no commandment from God to man to observe a weekly sabbath/rest for thousands of years after creation, until about 1500 BC. And there is no Biblical record that such a weekly sabbath was ever observed by Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, or any of their contemporaries. The Christian sabbath is not the "sabbath of manna-gathering" mentioned in Exodus 16:23-30. This was the first commandment from God to man to observe a weekly sabbath. It was given to the newly-constituted nation Israel during their wanderings from Egypt to the Promised Land. God promised them a daily portion of manna, or bread from heaven, for the first six days of every week, but none for the seventh. The seventh day was to be a day of rest. Therefore, God commanded Israel to gather a double portion of manna on the sixth day to suffice for the seventh. This "sabbath of manna-gathering" is not the Christian sabbath because both it and the manna were given only to the nation Israel, not to Gentile nations. The Christian sabbath is not the "sabbath of the Ten Commandments" mentioned in Exodus 20:1-17: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy...." (vv.8-11). The Ten Commandments were the code of law which set forth Israel's responsibility to God under the covenant He made with them at Mount Sinai (19:3-8; 34:28b). The "sabbath of the Ten Commandments" is not the Christian sabbath because: 1) It and the Ten Commandments and the Sinaitic Covenant were given only to Israel, that nation whom "God ... brought ... out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage" (20:1f). 2) The Sinaitic Covenant is no longer in effect because it has been abrogated and superseded by the New Covenant instituted by Jesus Christ (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Matthew 26:26-28; Hebrews 8; 10:11-18). Since the Old Covenant is no longer in effect, the sabbath it required is also no longer in effect. Consequently, those who enter into this New Covenant with God through belief in Jesus Christ are told to ignore those who judge them for not observing sabbaths (Colossians 2:16). Furthermore, God approves the believer who "esteems every day alike" (Romans 14:5). The Christian sabbath is that of the New Covenant. It is not one day of the week. It is rather that spiritual rest which is found in Jesus Christ, the Mediator and Surety of this "better covenant" (Hebrews 7:22; 8:6). He has fulfilled all the work God required for the salvation of His people (John 19:30), and therefore rested from all His saving work. Everyone who trusts in Him for salvation enters into His rest, and forevermore ceases working to obtain God's blessings Matthew 11:28. "There remains therefore a rest [or Sabbath keeping] for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall ... [in] unbelief" (Hebrews 4:9-11). Ken, Have you entered into the sabbath of Jesus Christ? Joshua | ||
| jtree |
THE CHRISTIAN SABBATH: WHAT SHOULD BE THE CHRISTIAN'S ATTITUDE TOWARD THE SABBATH-DAY COMMANDMENT? The sabbath-day commandment is the fourth of the Ten Commandments (or Decalogue, literally "Ten Words"): "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work ...." (Exodus 20:8-11; Deuteronomy 5:12-15). What should be the Christian's attitude toward this sabbath-day commandment? 1. Recognize that the commandment to observe the sabbath-day rest was given only to the nation Israel. The preface to the Ten Commandments expressly states they were given as a code of law only to Israel, that nation whom "the LORD your God ... brought ... out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage" (Exodus 20:1; Deuteronomy 5:6 and v.15). It is true that the other nine commandments are binding upon every man in every age (see for example Romans 2:14f). But Israel alone -- to the exclusion of every other nation or entity -- was ever commanded to "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." 2. Recognize that the covenant containing the sabbath-day commandment is no longer in effect. This covenant was made between God and Israel through the mediation of Moses at Mount Sinai (Exodus 19:1-8; Deuteronomy 5:1-6). It is therefore called the Sinaitic and/or Mosaic Covenant. It has been superseded by the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) which was ratified at and by the shedding of the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ (Matthew 26:28). In His death on Mount Calvary He was the "Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises" (Hebrews 8:6). This "better covenant" is the "new covenant" which has made the "first [i.e. the Old Covenant] obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13). When this Old Covenant was made obsolete, so was the commandment peculiar to it regarding the Sabbath day. 3. Recognize that the New Covenant which is applicable to Christians contains no commandment to observe a sabbath-day. God therefore today approves the person who "esteems every day alike" (Romans 14:5). Indeed, Paul the apostle soundly rebukes those Christians who, having been freed from the law of Moses, would revert to observing its sabbath-day commandment: "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days [e.g. sabbath-days] and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain" (Galatians 4:9-11). 4. "Therefore let no one judge you ... regarding ... sabbaths" (Colossians 2:16). Why? Because they were but "a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (v.17). That is, the sabbath day rests were given to Israel as types, or prophetic pictures, of that rest which would eventually be found in Jesus Christ alone. They were therefore mere "shadows" of the rest which God has reserved for His people; but Jesus Christ is the "substance" of that rest. They as "shadows" provided mere temporal and physical rest; but Jesus Christ as the "substance" provides eternal and spiritual rest. The "shadows" have become obsolete and passed away; but the "substance" which has superseded them forever remains. God therefore today commands men to forsake the observance of Jewish sabbaths and to find rest in Jesus Christ alone. Christ Himself invites us to "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you [i.e. "Become My disciple"] and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28f). ( See also Hebrews 4:9-11.) Ken Have you found the everlasting spiritual sabbath by believing in Jesus Christ? In His Name, Joshua |
