| Author | Message | ||
| Gatororeo7 Registered user Username: Gatororeo7 Post Number: 133 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ephesians 1.7, 8 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. In whom do we have redemption? Jesus Christ. How do we have redemption? Through His blood. Whose blood? Christ's blood. Where is the forgiveness of sins? In Him. In Whom? In Jesus Christ. We have redemption in Jesus Christ. We have forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ. You cannot possibly have Jesus Christ without also having the forgiveness of sins. Why? Because the forgiveness of sins is in Jesus Christ! If you have Jesus Christ, you have the forgiveness of sins. Do you ask Jesus Christ to save you on a daily basis? Do you ask Jesus to redeem you on a daily basis? You probably don't because you already know you are saved and redeemed. Why then are we required to ask for forgiveness? Why can't we just take what the Bible says as true? In Him, in Jesus Christ, we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of sins is in Christ. They cannot be separated. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 551 Registered: 11-2002 |
As someone raised SDA, Gatororeo7 is is always good for me to remember what you wrote above. It is so easy to get into the thinking of I must do this or that or I cannot do this or that even when the this or that has nothing really at all to do with my relationship with Jesus. Thanks for the reminder. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 241 Registered: 12-2003 |
Joel, you make a good point if we look at it from a certain angle. We never have to fear that we have fallen from salvation and need to confess in order to get back into grace. The Bible, though, does admonish us to confess our sins as believers. James 5:16 asks us to confress our sins to each other and to pray for each other so we "may be healed." In Matthew 6:12 Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Forgive us our debts [sins, trespasses], as we also have forgiven our debtors." 1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." John is not writing to unbelievers; three verses later he addresses, "My dear children," and reassures them that Jesus' atoning sacrifice will cover their sins which they commit as believers. The point of confssing sins as believers is not to gain salvation. Rather, it's to own the transgression. If we do not humble ourselves to the point of owning the transgression of our sins and confessing them to God (and to whoever we may have hurt), we never really acknowledge the character flaw or the wound in our heart where that sin originated. Part of the Holy Spirit's work in us is to sanctify us and to heal our hearts and make us increasingly able to trust Jesus instead of acting in self-protecting or defensive or indulgent ways. That kind of growth is only possible when we admit our sins as God convicts us of them. This forgiveness is not about being saved, but it is about deepening and growing in Christ. When I avoid facing something that the Holy Spirit convicts me of, I find that a certain sense of anxiety or hardness comes into my heart. Asking God for forgiveness is about surrendering the things God wants to change in us instead of refusing to experience the shame or discomfort or loss of admitting certain sins or flaws. So yes, we can be certain Jesus has forgiven all our sins, past and present. We just don't appropriate the benefits of his healing and transformation in our daily lives if we don't confess them as the Holy Spirit convicts us of them! Colleen | ||
| Gatororeo7 Registered user Username: Gatororeo7 Post Number: 134 Registered: 4-2002 |
Colleen, Correct me if I am misunderstanding you, because I may be, but I have to respectfully disagree with a few points you made. (At least I got a grace based answer from you, and not the usual SDA double speak! Praise God for that!) First, I believe that the forgiveness of our sins is an already accomplished fact. I don't see any conflict there. As God's very own children, you and I are completely forgiven, loved, and accepted. In spite of our new identity in Christ, we still sin. Obviously we know this is because our sinful flesh nature has not yet been removed from us. Again, there's no contention. Where I believe we a children of God slip off is in answer to the question, "What happens when we do sin?" Christianity has traditionally told us to confess and pray for forgiveness because we are out of fellowship with God. You got that in SDA, I got that through the Charismatics (Word of Faith movement). In my understanding of the gospel, I believe that to be an act of unbelief. We find ourselves asking for something we already have. Again, forgiveness is an already accomplished fact. There is no other forgiveness to be attained. As far as confession is concerned, I believe there is a place for that in a Christian's life. Steve McVey puts it best when he says: "Confess is from the Greek word homolegeo which literally means "same word." It is commonly translated as "to say the same thing." When we confess our sins to God, we are agreeing with Him that we have sinned, according to His Word. Therefore, confession is not coming to God and saying, "O God, I have sinned, I am a dirty, rotten, no-good sinner, please forgive me just one more time." True confession is like this, "Father, I agree with You that I have sinned, thank You that I am forgiven and I ask You to remind me of the reality of the fellowship that I truly have in You." It is important to understand that confession is primarily for us." Certainly we are to ask forgiveness amongst ourselves, but as far as God is concerned, its an accomplished fact. Confessing to God isn't about telling Him what we did, He already knows. It's more about us agreeing with Him, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him. Now that I think about it, Colleen, we might just be saying the same thing. =) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 244 Registered: 12-2003 |
I think we're saying the same thing, Joel! "Confession" probably is the better word here. When we confess (acknowledge and own our flaws), we can receive the benefits of God's forgiveness which is already ours. It's true that the Lord's prayer uses the word "forgive", but that's not in the sense of trying to regain grace. It's more like my asking Richard to forgive me if I've snapped at him. I know he loves me and wants the air to be clear between us; I just have to humble myself and admit that I hurt him. Then my heart is ready to accept his forgiveness. Of course this is an imperfect comparison, but it's the basic idea of what I'm trying to say. Does that make sense? Colleen | ||
| Gatororeo7 Registered user Username: Gatororeo7 Post Number: 135 Registered: 4-2002 |
Yes, that makes perfect sense. Now of course, I have to defend the gospel and the good news of our complete forgiveness against those on CARM who would love to deny us complete forgiveness. | ||
| Gatororeo7 Registered user Username: Gatororeo7 Post Number: 136 Registered: 4-2002 |
Taken from Bob George's People to People website. Today, there are people who believe that Christians must confess their sins in order to be forgiven. They believe that it is possible for us to be "in and out" of fellowship with God and that we must "keep short accounts" (or stay "fessed up"). The Bible doesn't teach that we are "in and out" of fellowship with God. A person who is saved is in fellowship with God - eternally. "God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful." (1 Corinthians 1:9). A person who is lost is not in fellowship with God. There is no bouncing back and forth. You are either in fellowship with God (saved, walking in the light) or you are not in fellowship with God (lost, walking in darkness). Scripture also doesn't teach the idea of "keeping short accounts" (being "fessed up"). Teaching that we are to "keep short accounts" with God causes very real and damaging problems because we miss the point of what confession really is. Such popular teaching makes confession a mindless cure-all, a "bar of soap" we use daily to clean up our flesh. A common scenario would be of a person privately confessing to God a bitter attitude towards another and then asking for forgiveness. Afterwards, he doesn't think about it, feeling that he has adequately met the "spiritual" requirement. "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins" (Colossians 2:13) The fact is that while the sin issue is dead between you and God, it isn't between the people with whom we come in contact daily. When we realize we've wronged another, we need to go to that person and take steps toward reconciling the relationship with that person. It is easy to "confess" our sins and continue on, thinking we have met a spiritual" requirement. But has there really been a change in our attitude, and not just our action? That would be like the little boy whose father angrily tells him to sit down and be quiet in church. The little boy does so, but tells his father that "I may be sitting down on the outside, but I'm standing up on the inside!" God is much more concerned with changed attitudes. As our attitudes change - through the truth of God's Word - our actions will eventually change. Teaching we must confess our sins in order to be forgiven doesn't produce changed hearts. Why? Because we have placed ourselves under a "law" which demands that we confess every sin in order to be forgiven and stay in fellowship with God. However, there are no laws, Mosaic or man-made, that can free us from sin. The law was never meant to free us from sin because "the power of sin is the law" (1 Corinthians 15:56). Therefore, we usually end up repeating the same sin before the week (or even the day) is over and feel guilt and frustration over our inability to change. This obsession with confession keeps us under the power of sin because we are consumed with thoughts of ourselves in a sincere desire to please God. As a result, though, we become so concerned about whether we are "in or out of fellowship" with God that we don't have time for our relationships down here. We are too busy keeping "short accounts" to be able to serve our brothers in love. Compare and see how many times the Scriptures exhort us to love one another versus confessing our sins. The emphasis is overwhelmingly in favor of loving our brothers. We need to focus on the fact that God has forever settled the sin issue. Before Christ, men's sins separated them from God. Christ was the only solution to this dilemma. Then He hung on the cross and said "It is finished!", He meant it is finished! God has bridged the gap between Himself and man through His Son. "All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them... God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:18,19,21). Since the Bible tells us that all of our sins are forgiven because of the grace of God, then what do we do when we do sin? Ignore it and say "I'm under grace, so it doesn't make any difference if I sin?" Many believe that teaching the forgiveness of Christ will cause people to go out and sin more. Paul dealt with this argument over 2,000 years ago. He responded, "By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" (Romans 6:2). He continues to tell us that "we should no longer be slaves to sin - because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. . . In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. . . For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace" (Romans 6:6,7,11,14). The more we understand our identification with Christ, the more we understand that we have been freed from the power of sin. We are freed from sin because of the work of Christ Jesus on our behalf, not because of our law keeping. Teaching the forgiveness we have in Christ is not a license to sin - we don't need a license to sin. The only reason people often believe this is true is because they lack an understanding of God's unconditional love, forgiveness and acceptance. They do not understand the motivating power of Christ's love for them. The Bible tells us "to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness" (Ephesians 4:23,24). Concerning lying, for instance, we are told "to put off falsehood and speak truthfully to our neighbor, for we are all members of one body" (verse 25). Or, concerning stealing, Ephesians 4:28 says that "he who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need." In other words, stop lying and start telling the truth. Quit stealing and go to work so you can share with others. These are not laws we are to keep. Because we are children of God, it doesn't make sense for us to continue lying or stealing. These are just a few verses that tell us what to do when we do sin. Not one verse says to confess our sins before we can go on with life. The motivation, instead, is found in Ephesians 4:32, which says we are to "be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." The only way we can ever love, forgive and accept others is because Christ has first loved, forgiven and accepted us. It is true that we will treat others the way we feel God is treating us. If we feel we have to perform for God and ask His forgiveness each time we sin, we expect the same performance from everyone else. If we believe God loves us only when we do the right things, then we tend to also love others when they, too, do the right things. The opposite is also true. Only when we understand the unconditional love, forgiveness and acceptance of God will we ever be able to share that same love with those around us. It is impossible for us to love and forgive one another if we are constantly worrying about our own acceptance to God. The simple truth is that "we love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19). If we believe we must continually confess our sins in order to be loved and forgiven by God, we are actually mocking God and telling Him that Christ's work on our behalf was not sufficient. The damage caused by this belief is extensive. There are many who are in bondage to this "law" that was created and perpetuated by man. That's why it is so important to understand what the bible says about Christ's finished work on the cross and our identity in Him. As we understand these truths and keep our eyes on the Lord instead of ourselves, we will see our lives change. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 559 Registered: 11-2002 |
At the church I attend we recite the creeds. We also have a prayer we recite in which we ask God for forgiveness of sins which we committed by not doing the right thing when we had the opportunity to do so as well as for sins we are unaware of. That pretty much covers it all. I think in the Psalms it says we are to live with a prayful heart. In doing this we are always regenerating our renewal with Christ, nanosecond by nanosecond. Since this is a former SDA forum I want to say it is my understanding that the SDA do not believe in the continuing of forgiveness of sins. The I.J. doctrine pretty much whacks out people being renewed by Jesus continusely. I think this is how come also the SDA church teaches that folks who have strayed from the truth (SDA) if they once were in the truth (SDA) they need to be rebapitized. Is there any other denomination out there that has its people go through so many bapitizms? Personally I know several people who have been bapitzed into the SDA denomination three times. I recently heard of a lady who had gone through this with the SDA church four times. It is extremely common in the SDA for one person to be bapitized numerous times. The SDA teaches if there is even one teensy-weensey unconfessed sin at the time of a persons death then that person can just kiss eternal life with Jesus good-by. While I'm at it I'd like to know an answer to another thing I have been wondering about. The SDA church teaches it and it only is the remanent church for these last days. I have been in sermons where the SDA preacher up front has said that only a third of the Adventists will be saved. In fact, my closest friend converted to SDA when she was around 19 and soon after heard the minister say that. She knew she would be in the two-thirds that wouldn't make it (she still had an occassional beer, had her ears pierced, etc.) so she never went back to the SDA church ever again. Is this somewhere in EGW's writings? | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2004 |
gatororeo, Do you frequent CARM? Under what name? | ||
| Gatororeo7 Registered user Username: Gatororeo7 Post Number: 137 Registered: 4-2002 |
Tealeaves, Yes I am a regular on CARM, under jlondon81. Which by the way, can i at all change my username on here? Joel | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2004 |
Hi, I do recognize you now! :o) I, of course, am irritating the people at CARM under the same name as I use here and at Clubadventist. You can probably change your username by emailing the same address you used to sign up... I know they don't check it all that often, but they'd probably let you know whether they change usernames or not. -tea- | ||
| Conniegodenick Registered user Username: Conniegodenick Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2004 |
For Susan: Ellen White I think in Messages to Young People wrote something like "not one in 20 who profess to know Christ will be saved." Statements like this led my brother to decide to run away from Auburn Academy and join the Merchant Marines. The dean found out and talked him out of it but his despair was typical of my generation when we contemplated our chances of "making it." I for one had ZERO assurance of my own salvation and I STILL struggle with the concept that I need to keep remembering and confessing sins or I won't be saved. I know now that this isn't true. Once I've accepted Christ I'm His forever unless I purposely renounce Him. It feels SOOOOO good to be ex-SDA and out from under those damaging schizophrenic doctrines. | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 91 Registered: 2-2003 |
In the book THE PASSION OF JESUS CHRIST, 50 REASONS WHY HE CAME TO DIE by John Piper, there is a chapter entitled, "Christ Suffered and Died ----To Bring us to Faith and Keep us Faithful." This is the last paragraph of this chapter: "And the miracle is not only the creation of our faith, but the securing of our faithfulfulness. "I will make with them an everlasting covenant... I will put the fear of me in their hearts, THAT THEY MAY NOT TURN FROM ME" (Jerimiah 32:40). When Christ died, he secured for his people not only new hearts but new security. He will not let them turn from him. He will keep them. They will persevere. The blood of the covenant guarantees it." Connie, like you, I had no assurance growing up SDA,(by the way, I grew up in western NC) and I am recently coming to have security in Christ. If we take what Jeremiah says "THAT THEY MAY NOT TURN FROM ME," I guess that God can even keep us from renoucing him. Some will say "what about free will?" If I have turned my will over to him, isn't he powerful enough to keep me from turning from him? I'm still learning! | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 309 Registered: 1-2003 |
Well, try voicing simple assurance in salvation to SDA's (I am talking about CARM forum) and you get accused of OSAS. Well, guess what...if that is what they want to label it...I guess I do believe in OSAS! They act like it is a dirty word! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 324 Registered: 7-2003 |
How do they explain being sealed unto the day of redemption? (by the Holy Spirit, of course) | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 311 Registered: 1-2003 |
Didn't you know the seal is really the Sabbath??? (said tongue in cheek). My husband told me that his brother was sent to Germany because of the widespread rejection of the "Spirit of Prophesy" (Ellen White) and he is trying to stop the hemmorrage. Interesting, huh? When he told me this...I thought to myself...How blasphemous to give her the title that belongs to the Holy Spirit (like she is the sole possessor of the Spirit of Prophesy.) It makes me ill. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 325 Registered: 7-2003 |
I know prophecy is one of the gifts of the spirit (as they claim in their fundamentals), but why is it only one person has had it? I know the seal is the Sabbath, I just wonder how they get around the Bible to get to their sabbath. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 57 Registered: 3-2004 |
Exactly, Melissa. When I went to the SDA Church here about a month ago, that was my point. I happen to hit the meeting (Saturday morning worship service time) that was to convince them about EGW being a prophet. I had really been praying about why I was even feeling the Holy Spirit wanted me to go that day because I didnít particularly want to go. Perhaps one reason was because of the misuse of James Dobsonís name. Perhaps secondly I got him to think. Being an eternal optimist, Iím praying that even the evangelist is deceived, not dishonest. I approached him to thank him for not trying to say EGW had never made a mistake. (Guess they canít try that one any more.) But then I asked him the same thing that you said Melissa. Why just EGW when he had been putting Joel 2 and Acts 2 texts up on the screen? I asked him if he believed the whole chapter. He looked at me kind of questioning and wanted to know my point. So I quoted him the part about ìI will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughter will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visionsÖî etc. He asked me if it really said ìallî. Who knows but that God wonít again use people like Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar having dreams. It doesnít even say prophesying is just for ìChristiansî when you really examine it. Anyway, Iím just praying I planted a seed because I was surprised as he was when that came out of my mouth. I just have to trust that it was the Holy Spirit at work. Praise God... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 255 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wow, Praisegod, what an interesting experience. I remember hearing that the "latter rain" (which Adventists pray for still) will be characterized by people prophecying, but that won't happen until just before the end of time. They call Pentecost the "former rain". That's how they get around the Joel prophecy. It's amazingly deceptive, and when you read the Bible inductively, you find that Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel. So many Adventist teaching are twisted--just off-center enough that it's hard to tell at first, but as one follows the teaching to it's logical end, one finds oneself getting farther and farther away from Biblical truth. It's subtle. I'm so glad we can now totally trust the "ancient words," as the song says, instead of filtering them through the "new light" of EGW! Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 174 Registered: 5-2002 |
"NEW LIGHT" or "THE LESSER LIGHT" according to EGW and SDA 'authorities' = you need our special flashlight in order to find the midday sun. Peter refers to the Joel text in his famous speech. Compare the two texts: Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. Acts 2:16,17 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. It's right there in the Holy Scriptures, before their very eyes,yet they are too blinded to see it. Worse, they are deceived to the point that they actually use it to their supposed advantage in proving their own false doctrine. Indeed, they believe they need a flashlight in order to see the sun. They don't realize they are only looking into the dark corner of legalism and bondage. Sad... My whole family is tangled in this mess and it breaks my heart every day. Please pray for all SDA's and that God will continue to bring to light the error and deception to those who are blinded by it. Praise God for setting me free from such nonsense! |
