| Author |
Message |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 8:04 pm: |     |
HEREíS INFO ON ìTHE BLESSED
BOUNDARY TWINSî
BOUNDARY: When to Say Yes, When to Say
No, To Take Control of Your Life
by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend
ISBN: 0310585902
Size: 6-1/8 x 9-3/16 - 304 pp - Price: $19.99
Synopsis: This book presents a BIBLICAL
treatment of BOUNDARIES, identifies how
boundaries are developed, and how they
become injured. It also shows Christian
misconceptions of the function and purpose of
BOUNDARIES, and provides a program for
developing and maintaining healthy LIMITS. -
PSYCHOLOGY / Christian Living / RECOVERY
Designed for groups of every size, this new,
interactive edition of the successful
BOUNDARIES curriculum helps people build
healthy RELATIONSHIPS by learning how and
when to say No as well as Yes.
Having clear BOUNDARIES is essential to a
healthy, balanced lifestyle. A BOUNDARY is a
personal property line that marks those things
for which we are responsible. In other words,
BOUNDARIES define who we are and who we
are not. BOUNDARIES impact all areas of our
lives: Physical BOUNDARIES help us
determine who may touch us and under what
circumstances -- Mental BOUNDARIES give
us the freedom to have our own thoughts and
opinions -- Emotional BOUNDARIES help us
to deal with our own emotions and disengage
from the harmful, manipulative emotions of
others -- SPIRITUAL BOUNDARIES help us to
distinguish God's will from our own and give
us renewed awe for our Creator -- Often,
Christians focus so much on being loving and
unselfish that they forget their own limits and
limitations. When confronted with their lack of
BOUNDARIES, they ask: - Can I set LIMITS
and still be a loving person? - What are
legitimate BOUNDARIES? - What if someone
is upset or hurt by my BOUNDARIES? - How
do I answer someone who wants my time,
love, energy, or money? - Aren't BOUNDARIES
selfish? - Why do I feel guilty or afraid when I
consider setting BOUNDARIES? Dr. Henry
Cloud and Dr. John Townsend offer
BIBLICALLY-based answers to these and
other tough questions, showing us how to set
healthy BOUNDARIES with our parents,
spouses, children, friends, co-workers, and
even ourselves.
About the Authors:ÝDr. Henry Cloud is a
popular speaker, licensed PSYCHOLOGIST,
cohost of the nationally broadcast New Life
Live! radio program, and cofounder of
Cloud/Townsend Resources. He maintains a
private PRACTICE in Newport Beach, CA, and
is a best-selling coauthor (with Dr. John
Townsend) of a number of books, including
BOUNDARIES in Marriage, BOUNDARIES with
Kids, The Mom Factor, and the Gold Medallion
Award-winning BOUNDARIES. Dr. John
Townsend is a popular speaker, licensed
PSYCHOLOGIST, cohost of the nationally
broadcast "Minirth Meier New Life CLINIC"
radio program, and cofounder of Cloud /
Townsend Communications. He graduated
with a DOCTERATE in CLINICAL
PSYCHOLOGY from Rosemead Graduate
School of PSYCHOLOGY, and maintains a
private PRACTICE in Newport Beach, CA. He
is the best-selling coauthor with Henry Cloud
of several books, including Safe People,
Twelve "Christian" Beliefs That Can Drive You
Crazy, and the Gold Medallion Award-winning
BOUNDARIES. |
Chyna
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 12:57 am: | |
hey Valerie,
that is an awesome way to regard what some of us would call "wasted time" as little in comparison to eternity.
I know for myself personally, there have been times when I asked God why He gave me this trial to endure, but in light of what I am doing of a result of the doomed relationship with a current SDA, and the rewards in eternity are far greater. To know I'm sowing seeds for current Adventists to realize either they do not possess salvation or do not possess knowledge of the completely grace based Salvation Jesus has completely paid for us.
yet we are meant to have a life of struggle as a Christian! James tells us to PRAY for trials! To pray for those times that break you wide open and you feel like your world is falling apart. apparently this is supposed to be part of being a Christian and the way God works in us.
in Him, Chyna |
Chyna
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 1:02 am: | |
what I realize why Sabbath is such a hot button for Adventists. If it is their key to salvation, of course they won't give it up!
So I believe in some way that former Adventists that still cling to observing Sabbath even after leaving Adventism are still clinging to residual thoughts of fear that losing Sabbath means losing Salvation |
Chyna
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 1:03 am: | |
so a prime indicator, or THE indicator of a cult is "If you leave us, you will lose your salvation." In Adventism it doesn't look so overt, but leaving the church AND giving up the Sabbath! Well you might as well leave your Salvation at the door if you leave the Sabbath Keeping Day Adventists! |
Violet
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 8:15 pm: | |
As I am back and forth with my brother in law over my new found truth he finally boiled it down to a Sabbath issue. And another lady I am discussing with also is hung up on if I will be attending a Sabbath keeping church. It is very hard for someone, who rests so much on a day of the week to imagine you giving it up. My brother in law wants me to study more on this one issue. I told him I would be glad to if he would study more on grace. Havn't heard back yet. I am trying to get him to read Clay Peck's writing on the New Covenant. We'll see what happens.
Violet |
Therese
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 11:23 pm: | |
Chyna,
Your comment, "So I believe in some way that former Adventists that still cling to observing Sabbath even after leaving Adventism are still clinging to residual thoughts of fear that losing Sabbath means losing Salvation" is true.
I have this fear and I can't shake it. It really keeps a person in limbo -- can't go back and can't go forward. I pray God will eventually show me the way.
Thanks for all you insights.
Therese |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 3:25 am: | |
Dear Therese,
There's a verse in the bible that I firmly cling to and that is, "Perfect love casts out all fear." Surely that within this verse insecurity of Salvation has no place!
know that you are secure in Christ, that He is the One that will sustain you and hold you so that you can still stand, and eventually go forward.
One of the profound things I've realized is that there are SO many things that I need to go ahead and do them scared.
I was thinking of the unshakable faith I have in Christ, and the reason why it is so sturdy is from a firm foundation of biblical teaching. and I memorized a heckuva lot of verses growing up for something called, "Bible Drill." Maybe we at FAF can start suggesting verses we find comfort and strength in with you and you can memorize the ones you want!
love, Chyna |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 3:34 am: | |
I was also thinking about how even though I probably have one of the best reasons in the world to want to never have anything to do with SDAs, instead God's put a place in my heart for them, for outreach.
after taking a test :), they said my gifts were Faith and I think leadership or teaching, one of those, but I do know I have faith that God is going to move many people out of Adventism :), just wait and see. |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 3:57 am: | |
hey, I finally have all these clicking things happening inside of me about Adventism.
The reason why Adventists always want to debate about Sabbath is because it's how they perceive their Salvation as exclusively connected, and that's why they feel so defensive about keeping the Sabbath because if they don't believe in Sabbath then they have no tangible way of "keeping" their Salvation! Otherwise, who knows what the mark of the faithful ones of Christ are? (said tongue in cheek).
So that's why when I kept broaching the subject of why you don't *have* to worship on Sabbath to my ex that he got so riled up that I had to keep bringing up contrary evidence. because if I did manage to convince him of anything different, it would shake the whole foundation of his faith because his idea of keeping the Sabbath is so wound up in what his idea of Salvation or "maintaining" his salvation.
hmm, Chyna |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 4:09 am: | |
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
it has also occurred to me that our Salvation is called a gift of God. What part of a gift do we have to earn? or keep earning after the gift is given? When you give you friend a nice present for their birthday do you tell them: "I expect you to call me twice a week and meet at least twice a month for personal get togethers or I will take your present away"?
another illustration that Jesus gives about the Parable of the Lost Sheep. He has 100 sheep, one is lost, and the Shepherd does everything He can to bring back that one lost sheep. Do you see how God isn't like: "That sheep was bad and didn't follow the rules and therefore got lost, and therefore isn't precious to me anymore and I will not restore the sheep to the flock"?
oh dear, getting sleepy. all righty, g'night for now.
Chyna |
Lydell
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 5:32 am: | |
Therese, I think all of us formers have had to deal with that fear. In our case, the Lord finally told us that if we were going to make progress, we were going to have to lay the question of "what about the sabbath?" at His feet and walk away from it. He assured us He would get back to it when HE was ready. Look at it this way, IF the sabbath is so all fired important as the SDA's have ground into your brain to believe, then the Lord WILL bring you to the true believer serious conviction of that fact.
You just have to look at these nearly two thousand years of earth's history and see that the Lord hasn't, in fact, made the supposed "importance" of sabbath a big issue in His church. Think of it. People who were willing to be burned, people who had the faith to hang to their commitment to Christ even when faced with the certainty they were about to be hacked to death. And the Lord never bothered to instruct them in this "vital" truth. He had made sure they learned about Christ, the virgin birth, baptism, walking by faith, but not the sabbath. Curious view of the power of God, isn't it? Isn't it fascinating that we, as SDA's, never thought about that?!
It may help you to do some pondering on the things the Lord has done with His church thru history. Look at how He has owerfully moved. Think about how you see Him blessing His children today who are not sabbatarians. How you see "the other churches" growing. There are so MANY more "other churches" than there are sabbatarian congregations. Hmmmm, I wonder why? ha
It comes down to something our pastor says alot. Anytime you are struggling with yourself over something, it takes alot of self-talk to get thru it, and, most importantly declaring the word over yourself. GOD already knows what He has said about you. YOU however often need to physically hear the words to be reminded.
Remember, "there is therefore NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." |
Therese
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2001 - 7:22 pm: | |
Dear Chyna & Lydell,
I hear what you are saying. But I am stuck on the concept that Jesus said, "Go and sin no more"; and "sin is transgression of the law"; and the law is the 10 commandments. And one of those commandments says "keep the 7th day holy." So therefore, if you don't keep the 7th day holy, you are sinning and thus offending God.
Also, Jesus said "if you love me keep my commandments"; and Jesus said something like "I give you a new command to love one another and love God, on these commands hangs the whole law". Or in other words the commands to love one another and to love God are just a summary (hangs the whole law) of the law. And that law which is being summarized is the 10 commandments. Jesus also said somewhere "I don't give you a new law." It seems to me the two New Testament commandments -- (1) love one another and (2)love God -- do not replace the 10 commandments, but are just a short summary of the 10 commandments. So, therefore, one of the ways we show we love God as in Jesus New Testament command "to love God" is to literally keep the 4th commandment.
I'm not trying to debate,just wanting a different perspective on these issues.
Thanks.
Therese |
Violet
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2001 - 8:01 pm: | |
Hi Therese,
You seem to be struggling with the same issues I just went through. If you would go to
http://www.graceplace.org/message/covenant.html
and read the document written by Clay Peck. It will answer so many of your questions and he puts it is such a great format. I printed it out and spent a lot of time with it. The message systematically takes you through the purpose of the law and the Sabbath.
Let me know what you think about it.
Violet |
Valm
| | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2001 - 8:23 pm: | |
Ditto to what Violet has to say. Valerie |
Lydell
| | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2001 - 3:24 pm: | |
Therese, it's a funny thing about Christ's commands to "love God and your neighbor as yourself". The SDA's would tell you that it is a shortened version of the 10. But it actually was a huge expansion. Think about it. Did the 10 cover such things as acting out of pride, a quick temper, hiding your light, prematurely judging people, wrong thoughts, doing the "right" thing in your own power, turning the other cheek, going the extra mile, praying for your enemy?
So much of Christ's teachings were basically telling them that even when they only had 10 rules, they were incapable of keeping them. In Matthew 15:8 Christ quotes from Isaiah, "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me." He attempted to show them that the issue was never 10 rules. The issue was what was in their hearts. Look down at verse 18 there in Matthew, "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders." And yes, part of what he was quoting there was a reflection of the 10. But can you see that it was far more, it was the stuff that was coming "from the heart", and "the thoughts".
Therese, every former SDA struggles because of this false definition of "sin" that we brought away from the denomination. Altogether now, "sin is transgression of the law". But "sin" is so much more than "transgression of the law"! "Sin", according to all that Christ taught is anything in the heart and mind that is contrary to God.
Because sin involves the intent of our heart and even the toying with wrong thoughts, we are totally completely helpless. Therese, you cannot keep the 10. (And in case you want to rush in to quote "Be perfect as your father is perfect" I'd encourage you to check out the context there. It's talking about love, not keeping laws.) Christ was attempting to show them that they had been deceiving themselves to think that they could ever do so. They couldn't. Not ever. That was the purpose of the law, to drive them to the redeemer.
Their only hope always, even in the time of the rituals of sacrifices, was the broken heart and contrite spirit. The only hope has always been falling on the mercy of God. For the children of Israel the only hope was the promised coming Messiah. For us it is the reality of the resurrected Christ. Our real sabbath rest. We must lay aside all our works. All our silly self-deceptive attempts at righteousness and completely rest in Christ's competed work on our behalf.
So untangling the confusion begins with getting the definition of "sin" straight. SDA's are very fond of quoting Christ's admonition to the woman, "go and sin no more." But it's interesting that they seldom tend to quote "there is none righteous, no not one." Hmm Nor do they tend to quote Heb. 7:19, "For the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God." Therese, I hope you can see from these two verses that I have just quoted here that the Christian life involves something far beyond continuing to attempt to "sin no more" by trying to "keep the commandments". |
Terry
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 10:58 pm: | |
Therese,
Christ fulfilled all of the requirements of the Law/Torah/Ten Commandments. Sin was held accountable, only, under the Law given at Sinai.
In Romans 6: 1-7, Paul tells us that we have died to sin when we are baptised into Jesus. As Jesus was raised sinless, so are we, as we are "buried with Him through baptism into death...resurrected in His likeness...crucified with Him... and freed from sin."
In Hebrews 9:26-28 Paul also tells us, "...but now once at the consummation of the ages He [Jesus] has been manifested to PUT AWAY SIN by the sacrifice of Himself...and will appear a second time (Second coming) for salvation WITHOUT REFERENCE TO SIN, to those who eagerly await Him."
My point, Therese, is that Christians are not sinners. This is how God sees us! He sees us through what His Son has done for us! We are adopted into His family and saved for eternity.
Our behavior is completley irrelevant to our salvation. We are saved by believing in Jesus.
Hope this helps. |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 12:14 am: | |
Dear Terry,
It is so good to see you posting and teaching of our Lord's Grace!
You don't post often and this one really surprised me, with a great delight I might add. :)
I'm eager to hear more from you!
Blessings always,
DtB, your sister in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ |
Terry
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 11:15 pm: | |
Hi DtB,
Glad you enjoyed what I had to say to Therese. No, I don't have much time to read or post here, as I am away from home 3 or four nights a week rehearsing music. Do we know each other? It is simply amazing that the longer one truly understands the Gospel, how dense one might have seemed while blinded by the "veil." Smiles
Blessings to you DtB,
Terry |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 11:34 pm: | |
I agree with Lydell, Terry, and all above. Therese, when I began to understand sin as something more than just genetic inhertance, these texts began to make sense to me.
Sin is being born spiritually dead (Ephesians 2). That means that our spirits--that part of us that knows God and communicates with the Holy Spirit--is disconnected from him. When we accept Jesus and are born again, we become spiritually alive. We pass from death to life! The Holy Spirit indwells us and connects us to God and eternity. Even though our bodies are still fleshly, our spirits are now alive, and we have begun our eternal life.
When we are spiritually alive, we are one with Jesus, and in God's eyes we are righteous and perfect, as Terry pointed out above. Our flesh may still sin, but the Holy Spirit gives us new life, and we are never the same again. The power of God transforms us, and the righteousness of Jesus covers us and we have a new identity: saints!
I recommend the bood "Classic Christianity" by Bob George. He is not a former Adventist, and you can get his book at any Christian book store. It's the best book I've read on the subject of who we are in Christ.
In His love,
Colleen |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 11:43 pm: | |
Dear Terry,
The only way I probably know you is on this forum, although it's a small small world so you never now!. <grin>
You are right about being dense with the veil over the eyes. I was dense to the Truth of the Gospel for so much of my life that it is such an incredible journey to be in Christ Jesus.
I wake up now with a new attitude instead of that awful doom and gloom that I used to feel.
Now my days are full of joy. Although I do readily admit that there are those times and peoples that come into play and my faith is tried and tested.
Those are sometimes days that I thank God for I know it is His way of refining me or I go just the opposite route and feel doomed to hell, believing satan's lies.
A struggle between the carnal and the spiritual is the Christian life and for that I thank my Lord Jesus Christ.
For in all of these struggles, I have a Glorious Hope because Jesus Christ did it all around 2000 years ago. He secured for us, Eternal Life and His dwelling is now within us and among us by His Holy Spirit, Our Comforter.
Praise Him with me all you peoples! Let us all sing and shout Praises to our Saviour.
For He alone has saved us.
God Bless you always, and may He also bless your musical talents!
your sister in Jesus Christ,
DtB |
Therese
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2001 - 5:41 pm: | |
Thanks -- Violet, Valm, Lydell, Terry, & Colleen. I'll be pondering your comments.
Therese |
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