| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS TEACH SOUL SLEEP AND THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL ARE UNDER ONE OF THE TWO GREAT ERRORS OF SATAN The Adventist teaching of soul sleep is set forth in the FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS OF SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS, No. 25, ìDeath and Resurrectionî as follows: ìThe wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. when Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later.î Most evangelicals believe the souls or spirits of deceased Christians go immediately ìto be with the Lord.î [See 2 Cor. 5:1-10; Phil. 1:21-26; 2 Tim. 1:10; Mark 12:18-27; John 6:40, 47; John 8:51; John 11:25,26.] They they are reunited with a resurrected body at the second coming of Christ. [See 1 Cor. 15:35-58; 1 Thess. 4:13-18.] Adventists, however, like Jehovah's Witnesses, say that the souls are sleeping until the bodily resurrection. In either case, it appears, the next conscious moment after death, the righteous are with the Lord. It may seem, therefore, that this doctrine by itself, does not hinder functional church unity [of all denominations in Christ]. However, this is not the end of the story. Both Christians and SDAs acknowledge that in the Scriptures the word sleep, as applied to death, is imagery, or figurative language. The division comes over what, exactly, is the reality of which sleep is apt imagery. In real sleep, there is a real, living person present; oneís existence, thoughts, and emotions continue from the waking state, through the sleep state, and back again into the waking state. ONEíS MIND IS NOT TOTALLY INACTIVE DURING SLEEP. Even more important, ONEíS ACTUAL EXISTENCE IS NOT INTERRUPTED. Christians would acknowledge the same as being true of death. There is a real person whose existence continues, however different that existence may be from this life, and whose thoughts and emotions continue, however dissociated from this life they may be. SDAs, however, portray the reality of which sleep is figurative as essentially nonexistence. Under the heading ìThe Person Returns to Dust,î a ìpersonî is said to be an ìorganic unityî in which, ìbody and soul ONLY EXIST TOGETHER; they form an indivisible union.î [Damsteegt, et al., SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS BELIEVE...., p. 352; emphasis added.] The ìsoulî is not an entity having an individual self-conscious identity. It is nothing more than ìbreath,î or ìthe life principle.î [Damsteegt, et al., SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS BELIEVE...., p. 353.] Its return to God is nothing more than God withdrawing the power of life. The lifeless body, which is not a ìpersonî by itself anyway, then rots and disintegrates in the grave. SDA DOCTRINE THEREFORE DENIES THAT ANY REAL ìPERSONî EXISTS BETWEEN DEATH AND RESURRECTION. A ìpersonî only exists in a life state. In death no actual person really exists. This creates a philosophical and ontological problem for Seventh-day Adventism. Clearly, according to such doctrine, in death a person ceases to exist. It wold be highly IMPROPER, even figuratively, TO SPEAK OF A DEAD PERSON ìAWAITINGî ANYTHING, AS NO DEAD PERSON EXISTS [in SDA doctrine]. And if a person ceases to exist at death, then ìresurrectionî can have nothing to do with any person who has lived and died, but is the creation of another being altogether. What does it matter that in creating such a being God might fashion it to look like a previously existing person who has died? To whose advantage is it if god installs all the memories, thought patterns, even DNA structure, of such a previously existing person who has died, in His new being? All such considerations entirely miss the point. It is still a new, DIFFERENT being. OF WHAT INTEREST CAN SUCH A BEING BE TO ONE WHO KNOWS HIS OWN EXISTENCE WILL CERTAINLY COME TO A COMPLETE END? Perhaps to counter this problem and the hopeless despair it necessarily entails, SDAs offer this statement: ìDeath is a sleep. Death is not complete annihilation; it is only a state of temporary unconsciousness while the person awaits the resurrection.î [Damsteegt, et al., SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS BELIEVE...., p. 352.] The statement that, ìdeath is not complete annihilation,î is disingenuous. It is not ìcompleteî annihilation, in SDA thinking, because it is not final, but only ìtemporary.î But ANNIHILATION IS FINAL, AND THEREFORE COMPLETE, BY DEFINITION. ìINCOMPLETE ANNIHILATIONî IS AN OXYMORON. To say, ìthe person awaits the resurrection,î is equally disingenuous. The question then begging to be answered is, ìWHAT person? What, actually is ëawaiting the resurrection?íî AWAITING IMPLIES ANTICIPATION. ANTICIPATION IS A FUNCTION OF CONSCIOUSNESS REQUIRING A CONSCIOUS EXISTENCE. BOTH ARE IMPOSSIBLE DURING DEATH ACCORDING TO SDA DOCTRINE. NO ONE AND NO THING DEAD ìAWAITSî THE RESURRECTION. Virtually all SDAs would be appalled to think their doctrine constitutes a denial of the resurrection. That conclusion, however, is inescapable when one examines their SOUL-SLEEP doctrine carefully. It DENIES THE EXISTENCE OF A ìPERSONî APART FORM CONSCIOUSNESS, AND IT DENIES CONSCIOUSNESS IN DEATH. There is no such thing, then as a dead person [in SDA doctrine]. When a person dies the person ends. IF A PERSON ENDS AT DEATH THERE CAN BE NO SUCH THING AS ìETERNAL LIFEî FOR ALL PERSONS WHO DIE. THOSE PERSONS ARE GONE, period. The resurrection The resurrection is not a cloning process, or the creation of a new being with no previous historical identity of its own. No other person created in the image of the formerly living, even the exact same image, can bring them back. It is not unfair, therefore, to say that SDA DOCTRINE on the state of the dead ENTAILS A FUNDAMENTAL DENIAL OF THE DOCTRINE OF THE RESURRECTION AS TAUGHT IN THE SCRIPTURES. Hope that another being just like oneself will someday live forever is not the ìhope of eternal lifeî of which the Scriptures speak. How can the Christian who cherishes the glorious hope of eternal life for himself have functional unity or Christian fellowship with those whose doctrine essentially denies any such hope? Adventists also teach that the doctrine of immortality is one of the leading deceptions of Satan. Ellen White states that, ìThrough the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.î [Ellen G. White, THE GREAT CONTROVERSY, p. 588. See also SPIRIT OF PROPHECY, Vol. 4, p. 405.] Christians who believe the souls or spirits of the righteous ìgo to be with the Lordî at death are, according to SDAs, falling under one of the ìtwo great errors of Satan.î this, too, makes an insurmountable wall hindering functional unity [of all denominations in Christ]. How can Evangelicals and SDAs work together as Christian brothers and sisters? Would not the SDA feel duty-bound to protect the Evangelical from this great ìerror of Satanî? ************************* Excerpted from Dale Ratzlaff, THE TRUTH ABOUT SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST ìTRUTHî: QUESTIONS TO ASK YOUR ADVENTIST FRIENDS. Entire book available from: LIFE ASSURANCE MINISTRIES P.O. Box 11587 Glendale AZ 85318 Phone 623.572.9549 for information Phone 800.355.7073 for orders only Fax 623.572.3035 E-mail dale@ratzlaf.com Website www.ratzlaf.com | ||
| Cindy |
Interesting, Max... I need to study this whole area more. There are lots of "S" words in Adventism, huh? My misty-faded memories were just revived by my husband who reminded me that the "Platform of Truth" in Adventism was said to be based on the five "S" doctrinal truths... These were: "the Spirit of Prophecy/Ellen White"... "the Sanctuary/1844 doctrine"... "the State of the Dead/Soul Sleep"... and, of course, "the Sacredness of the Seventh Day Sabbath (as a Sign and Seal of loyalty to God)/versus Sunday keeping." Understanding these rightly would prepare us for the last of these five, "the Second Coming." Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Well quoted, Cindy, Now contrast that with this from E.G. White: "We are never to rest in a satisfied condition, and cease to make advancement, saying, "I am saved." When this idea is entertained, the MOTIVES for watchfulness, for prayer, for earnest endeavor to press onward to higher attainments, CEASE to exist. No sanctified tongue will be found uttering these words till Christ shall come." --Ellen G. White, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, June 17, 1890, paragraph 8. Article Title: The Truth as It Is in Jesus Notice what the motives are for good works. They're not to EXPRESS GRATITUDE for having been saved by Christ Jesus, but to EARN A TICKET to heaven. Seventh-day Sadventism! Max of the Cross | ||
| Colleentinker |
Max, thank you for posting the above. I've come to believe that the Sabbath and soul sleep really are two of the most pivotal doctrines--except in an opposite way from what Ellen had in mind. The sacredness of a day is, I believe, a most compelling deception because of all the OT symbols, the Sabbath is the most directly a symbol of our salvation and rest in Christ. The Sabbath was a shadow of Jesus. When we make the day sacred, we make his very own shadow holy instead of the living Lord who casts the shadow. It is a shadow of our salvation rest, the rest established by the Lamb slain from the creation of the world. The Sabbath is the symbol of the substance of everything life is about: rest in Christ. No wonder it is such a compelling deception! Soul sleep, I've come to believe, lies behind a host of deceptions. Soul sleep discounts the reality oif original sin. If we do not have souls that literally come alive and live eternally when we accept Jesus, then there's no compelling reason to believe that we are born dead as Ephesians 2 proclaims. If we do not have souls that literally come alive and are connected to Jesus when we are saved, then being born with a dead soul has no meaning, and it's not hard to believe that Jesus was born with a sinful nature. If sin is not a disconnected soul--a dead soul, then it must just be damaged DNA and bad deeds. But if sin is really spiritual death, a disconnection from God, then Jesus could not have had a sinful nature like Mary had because he would have then been sinful. The Bible makes it clear that we are born in sin, and Jesus was sinless. Sin must be a dead soul, and salvation must result in an eternally living soul in order for the Bible's declaration to be true. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and he was born sinless. He was born with a living soul--the only human to be so born! The Adventist's teaching about the soul and spirit also makes the work of the Holy Spirit theoretical and abstract. How can we be spiritually reborn and become able to discern spiritual things if we do not have a spirit that comes to life? With what exactly does the Holy Spirit communicate in us if we do not have a spirit that is something other than the breath in our respiratory systenm? Soul sleep, I believe, is a sinister doctrine that puts a benign-looking wrapping on many heretical beliefs. Praising God for literally bringing us to eternal life, Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Colleen, Yes, I agree, soul sleep is a sinister doctrine! Your discussions on the fact that we are born with "dead souls" and that when we are re-born, we then have, LIVE, "eternal souls" is awesome. But, I personally think the distortion of the "nature of Christ" is the root of the Sabbath, soul sleep and in particular, the IJ, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, problem. (The nature of Christ is a monsterous problem with the Oneness Penticostals too!) My first personal study will be the nature of Christ. I want to be able to defend that standing on my head, asleep by 6 months from now! What do you think?.............Maryann | ||
| Valm |
Colleen and Maryann, You are thinking much more clearly and in depth than I did on this matter and your posts will leave me with alot to think about today. I always took the stance that the state of the dead didn't matter to me because it wouldn't change the way I was functioning now. Maybe it does on a more abstract level. I have personal, intuitive beliefs on the matter but they are just that and I still am conflicted on what the Bible says. Maryann, start the thread on the nature of Christ. It would be a stimulating and insightful discussion. And I agree it is a critical and pivotal point in how one percieves salvation and works. I read all of the texts last night and do have questions. Now when I ask these it will seem like I am playing Devil's Advocate and I apologize for that. I guess what I am playing is more Adventist advocate because my first thought is that an SDA would say in response..... I found it interesting that in 2 Tim 1:10 in both the NIV and KJV the word immortality is used as what the gift of Jesus Christ brought us. This is obviously in direct conflict with EGW's proposal that the belief in the immortality of the soul is a great doctrinal error. I wonder if an SDA person would counterpoint that thought by saying yes the righteous will have immortality of the soul given to them but the other people would not. John 6:40 and 47 have Jesus proclaiming that he will raise them up on the last day. I would imagine that SDA's would use this as saying that people's spirits will be raised up along with their bodies on the last day. I Cor 15:44 clearly speaks of people of having a natural body and a spiritual body. Verse 50 speaks to the fact that it is not our flesh and blood that inherits the kingdom thus refering to the fact that we are much more than the shell in which we reside now. However from verse 52 forward as well as 1 Thess 4:13-18 it sounds consistent with traditional SDA beliefs. Any suggestions on how to discuss these points with an SDA who would give you their point of interpretaion of these texts? Max this is an interesting study, thanks for getting the ball rolling. Valerie | ||
| Lydell |
Val, I think we have to point out to them verses that they never notice. Like John 5:24 and I John 3:14 that say that we have already passed from death to life. And Romans 8:10 that tells us that our spirit is alive even if our body is dead. And maybe II Tim. 1:10 that tells us that He has already brought life and immortality to light by abolishing death. And then there is the powerful bread of life discourse in John 6:41-58. There we read that he is the bread that comes down from heaven, "which a man may eat and not die"(v. 50) and "he who feeds on this bread will live forever" (v. 58). I think we can only make a mistake by approaching the subject from the same standpoint they do.....beginning at the "end" (resurrection)and working backwards. Instead, we have to begin at what is our beginning. That is that we have to tackle the whole issue of what IS man. We aren't just body and breath. And all those verses on salvation John 3:36, I John 5:11-13, and so many others that tell us that we HAVE eternal life. If we HAVE it, then we aren't waiting for it in the future, we are already living in the realm of eternal life. | ||
| Valm |
Thanks Lydell, After 20 years of being out of Adventism, I still think in the same rut and the perspective shift you gave is refreshing. I love HAVING eternal life rather than WAITING for it!! I will review the texts you qoute tonight. Valerie | ||
| Max |
Powerful and convincing post, Lydell. Thank you. | ||
| Max |
^^ The Adventist's teaching about the soul and spirit also makes the work of the Holy Spirit theoretical and abstract. ^^ --Colleen Tinker, above. And not only theoretical and abstract, but silent! Witness: ^^ The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. ^^ --Ellen G. White, The Acts of the Apostles, page 52, paragraph 1. Chapter Title: The Gift of the Spirit For Ellen G. White to declare with a prophecy-claiming voice that Christians should keep silent about the Holy Spirit is unscriptural to say the least. For in the first place, she was adding to Scripture -- and thereby invoking the curse of God -- by declaring something that is not in Scripture. Nowhere does Scripture say that one should keep silent about the Holy Spirit. To the contrary, New Testament writers alone mention the specific phrase ìHoly Spiritî 91 times (NIV). And they connect it with all aspects of the believing life and witness including, and especially, gospel proclamation. Furthermore, New Testament writers mention the Spirit (capital S) 183 times, again always in ways which indicate that it is not the silence that is golden. It is rather the Holy Spirit who is golden and about whom NO TRUE WITNESS can keep silent! Why the strange -- and decidedly NOT golden -- testimony of silence on the part of Ellen G. White? And why would she virtually command silence upon all her SDA followers? We know that she degraded the person of Jesus Christ from Saviour Alone to a mere example, mere elder brother, and mere archangel (Michael) on a virtual par with the archangel Lucifer. Now are we going to discover that she also was trying to silence the true witness of the Holy Spirit by trying (successfully, it seems) to silence all witness and testimony about our Wonderful Counselor? Yes, the Holy Spirit is a deep mystery. But so is the gospel. Should we, therefore, also issue the same rebuke about about the gospel? ^^ Regarding such mysteries [such as the gospel], which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden? ^^ Questions for continued investigation. Meanwhile, the spreading flame of the gospel among our friends the Adventists can no longer be contained by the walls erected by Ellen G. White. For it has become a forest fire! And it has already gone beyond human control. Max of the Cross | ||
| Colleentinker |
Thank you, Lydell, for your wonderful post! The 1 Thessalonians 4 text, by the way, has a really startling phrase in it which I noticed for the first time about a year ago. Before if talks about the dead in Christ rising first (v. 16) it says in verse 14, "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him." He will BRING WITH JESUS those who have fallen asleep in him. That really suggests to me that we do have a spirit which stays with Jesus until our bodies are resurrected. And also remember that Paul said it would be much better for him to die and be with the Lord, but he would stay with them for the time being. I believe that the reason our "world view" changes so much when we accept Jesus is that our spirits become connected to eternity through the Holy Spirit. Truths about God and reality become much bigger; the formerly inexplicable passages in the Bible begin to make sense and to fit a unified picture that includes creation, eternity, death, life--spiritual things are truly spiritually discerned. We have passed from death to life, and our spirits enter eternity! We are forever connected to God, and nothing, neither death nor life, can separate us from his love! (Romans 8:38-39) Thank you, Jesus, for bringing us to life and for holding us in your heart forever! Colleen | ||
| Billtwisse |
On soul sleep & resurrection: The doctrine of soul sleep is patently unbiblical and denies a present dimension of resurrection truth--conscious living in Christ's presence between physical death and the future resurrection of the body. Yet it is not the most heretical doctrine on resurrection that is taught today among those who profess Christ. That distinction certainly belongs to the legion of Gnostic views currently spreading like wildfire. Gnosticism teaches the same thing about resurrection today that it has taught for the last 2000 years. It was the essence of the first great apostasy away from Pauline and apostolic truth; taught by Alexander, Hymenaeus, and Philetus: 1. Christ did not unite his divine person with humanity in a true human body. He appeared in a fleshly body only to enable communication with material human beings. To us his fleshly body appeared human in every respect. 2. Likewise, there was no physical resurrection of Jesus Christ--only spiritual. He appeared in a non-customary flesh and bones revelation a few times, only to communicate with similar beings. He retains no physical body now. 3. There is no physical resurrection of deceased believers. Like Christ, their eternal body is spiritual only (meaning immaterial--no material dwelling). It is entered at physical death, when the material body of sin is cast aside. Eternity in heaven is a pure spirit existence. These views are favored today by both conservatives and liberals. I was a member of an evangelical church from 1988-1991 where a pastor taught these things almost weekly from the pulpit. He was a new graduate of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and had studied under Dr. Murray Harris. There were a lot of sermons on 'true worship' based on Revelation 4 & 5--contrasting this 'spiritual worship' of eternity with the 'terrible sin' of coveting a material resurrection body. I realize that the 'immortality and resurrection' series by Dr. Harris was once used at the SDA seminary in Berrien Springs. However, the strange views that he eventually taught were a sharp departure from his earlier theology. I have no idea where Dr. Harris ultimately ended up. I read somewhere that the Evangelical Free denomination has since taken a stand against these views--in a special statement of belief. Many souls were led astray by false teaching. The prominent home of 'conservative' Gnosticism is the Preterist movement, often called '70 A.D.' eschatology. I have one of their favorite books: "The Spirit of Prophecy" by Max R. King. It passionately teaches the 'pure spirit' view of resurrection--in a very systematic fashion. The Preterists are a real force to be dealt with today. If you haven't yet been confronted with their teaching, you will be. In 'evangelical' circles there is an amillennial ('kingdom now'), premillennial (heavenly kingdom vs. earthly), and postmillenial (parallel heavenly and earthly kingdoms for a long time to come) version of this heresy. It is not limited to one eschatological viewpoint on the sequence of future events. Preterism has disagreements as to whether the present universe will continue to exist forever (for them, the final advent of Christ occurred in A.D. 70--so he is never coming here again). Some propose that an atomic reaction will ultimately destroy the material universe (evil)--since the only eternal world is spirit and consists of no matter whatsoever. The classic work against Gnosticism, in my opinion, is 'Against Heresies' by Irenaeus. He presents the classic biblical and Christian argument for the redemption of the material universe. The issues have really never changed since the first century--it is an old heresy. In extreme reaction to Gnostic views on the hereafter, Irenaeus came up with the doctrine of a physical presence of Christ's body in the Lord's Supper. But that is a different issue altogether. One of the best defenses of the historic Christian view of resurrection as opposed to Gnosticism--in recent times--is A.A. Hoekema in "The Bible and the Future" (Eerdmans). Gnosticism and materialism (from which soul-sleep is derived) are opposite heresies. However, the former is more deadly and has a long history of proven success. The latter is easily challenged from scripture once the true gospel is accepted. The history of success for soul-sleep is exactly what Canright termed it: only a sickly plant. What is our doctrine of resurrection? I know that ex-SDA's are generally opposed to soul-sleep. However, what about opposition to an eschatology of pure spirit? An inquiring mind wants to know. --Twisse | ||
| Jtree |
Max, tossed your msg at a Yahoo club. Here is a response I got. "This issue is so plain, it should not even be an issue. The Bible teaches it is the "soul/spirit" (ie. breath of God) that leaves the body and returns to God. This has no conciousness. The body however, is a dead corpse that returns to dust. When Christ returns He resurrects that corpse regardless how badly decomposed or how farly spread the ashes may be. All the DNA, memories of life, and physical features will be restored, minus all the defects. We will recognize one another. The words of Ellen White are true, and I believe it is extremely hard for SDA's to have unity with Christians who support the views of Babylon. A voice from heaven is calling you to "come out of Babylon and partake not of her sins, that you recieve not of her plagues." Rev.18:4. "Know the truth and the truth shall set you free" Jn.8:32. Happy New Years.. Joshua of the Rock! | ||
| Max |
Bill, enlightening, powerfu and convincing post. Keep 'em coming! | ||
| Jtree |
Soul sleep was not first taught by the Seventh Day Adventist, was it? Soul-sleep came from the first-day Adventists? Am I right here? | ||
| Max |
Joshua of the Rock! Thanks for bringing the Yahoo commentary on-line here. It reminds me of the old saying, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." And another one: "A theory never really dies, only the theoretician." Not to worry. Such reactions amount to less than dust on the scales of scriptural spiritual reality. To illustrate, I'll respond to just one: ^^When Christ returns He resurrects that corpse regardless how badly decomposed or how far spread the ashes may be.^^ Hey, it's not that simple. The minerals left behind after complete decomposition or after cremation don't just freely disperse in the biosphere and wait unaffected by the great living engine of earth's biosphere to be collected. They become utilized by the biosphere the instant they are released from the decaying body tissues. In the case of a buried (but not fossilized or mummified) human corpse, roots take up the minerals and incorporate them into plant cells. The plants (trees, bushes, grass) bear fruits and leaves. Leaves of grass, for instance, are eaten by animals, such as cattle -- cattle that may be slaughtered and their meat eaten by human beings. Not to mention other animal products: milk, cheese, ice cream, honey, eggs, etc. A similar food chain is true in the case of grains, fruits, nuts and vegetables eaten by SDA veggies and all vegetarians and vegans. The leaves of plants that have uptaken decomposed human bioproducts produce leaves that give off oxygen (02). Some of this gas in earth's atmosphere is inbreathed by humans who in turn incorporate some of the oxygen atoms into molelcules of their body cells -- organs (such the brain), bones, blood, muscles, hair, etc. Not to mention the water content of the corpse (97%[?] of total body weight), which eventually makes its way into the atmosphere as water vapor which may be inbreathed by humans. Or into ground water which may be stored in underground aquifers and pumped up in the form of well water which may be consumed by humans. Also not to mention the outgassing: carbon dioxide, methane, etc. These molecules also become part of the atmosphere and inbreathed by humans. There is more, much more, but I think you get the point. Our living physical bodies share recycled atoms and molecules, some of which come from other humans, both living and deceased. And in turn others share some of ours. The atoms of deceased plants, animals and other humans make up a part of our bodies at the time of our demise, whether we are "in the Lord" or not. Therefore, in addition to being a spiritual reality, the resurrection is also a physical reality -- an exceedingly more complex physical reality than what is pictured by SDA artists, for example, in their paintings of people ascending up out of freshly opened graves. For much matter that composed the living bodies is present in other living bodies and widely distributed throughout the biosphere. Question: Do these Yahoo theorists want to deal with the following physical realities of what may occur at the Second Coming? * Many, if not all, of those who are "alive and remain" (1 Thessalonians 4:17) have bodies that have incorporated atoms from other humans, some of whom may well be newly resurrected themselves. * Who gets to keep the mutual atoms of oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, iron, sodium, chlorine, etc? * What about Abrahamís atoms that may well have been incorporated into the bodies of hundreds of thousands of his descendants? And not only those of him alone, but all persons to be resurrected? *Or do they imagine that God breaks everything down into quanta or the "strings" of string theory. And if so, how does this material reality affect the spiritual reality of the scriptural doctrine of the resurrection? Here I can barely scratch the surface of the Ayres Rock of problems and questions, of puzzles and conundrums, of physical reality which may impinge on the spiritual reality under any or all human theorizing. What thinketh the Yahoo theorists? Perhaps they would do better to read a little Scripture before so pontificating. For starters hereís one: NIV Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone-- 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?î The scriptural doctrine of physical resurrection is part of deep mystery of scriptural spiritual reality. It's all well and good, as far as I am concerned, for them to speculate to their hearts' content. But God's thoughts and remain higher than any or all human thoughts and ways even as the heavens are higher than the earth. Max of the Cross | ||
| Billtwisse |
Soul sleep was not first taught by the Seventh Day Adventist, was it? Soul-sleep came from the first-day Adventists? Am I right here? The SDA's got the soul-sleep doctrine from the FDA's (who still believe in it today, even though they are considered true evangelicals--unlike the SDA's). Belief in this doctrine does not automatically make one a non-Christian; if the final resurrection and eternal life is still affirmed. It needs to be seriously challenged, however, if we believe in the gospel principle of the PRESENT possession of eternal life in Christ. Many scriptures are against soul-sleep. Historically, the doctrine in its Christian form goes back at least as far as Arnobius(A.D. 300). He was the first to systematically define the 'christianised' form of the doctrine, in reaction to Platonism. We must remember, however, that Plato also taught the transmigration of souls (moving from body to body). This is where he departed from Aristotle, if I remember my philosopy facts correctly. Simple belief in the eternal existence of all souls created by God is not Platonic. Arnobius was a 'materialist' (in the theological sense) and also taught strongly the final annihilation of the wicked. Both soul-sleep and annihilation had their actual origin in Judaism. Both have had a few proponents in almost all centuries, however, these have always been the minority opinion. In response to Max's meditation on the mysteries of how God will reorganize matter to create the world and our bodies anew, we can only stand in awe of the power of God. I have no idea of the HOW; I do believe that with one little word from God-- this world will be dissolved and transformed into a completely new one. The fire of eschatology is nothing other than the dissolution and transformation of all things by God's presence. By a miracle from him, our conscious souls will be preserved without harm from the material change that occurs. What a change it will be! --Twisse | ||
| Max |
Thanks, Bill, I always enjoy your insights into the history of theology. I also appreciate your reverence for spiritual realities as revealed in Scripture. | ||
| Jtree |
The main verses disproving the soul sleep error are: 1. Philippians 1:23 -- "I am in a straight betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and TO BE WITH CHRIST; which is far better." 2. 2 Corinthians 5:8 -- "To be absent from the body (death), and to be PRESENT WITH THE LORD." (in heaven) 3. Hebrews 12:1 -- "We are surrounded by so great a cloud of WITNESSES". (The departed believers discussed in Hebrews 11) 4. Hebrews 12:23-24 -- "The heavenly Jerusalem ... the church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven and to the SPIRITS of just men made perfect". 5. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 -- "Them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM". This means that when Christ returns to resurrect believers bodies at the second coming, He brings our spirits and souls with Him from heaven 6. Revelation 6:9-10 -- "I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God... they cried with a loud voice saying..." 7. Isaiah 14:9-10 -- "Hell from beneath ... stirs up the dead for thee. All they shall speak and say to thee." 8. Ezekiel 32:21 -- "The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell ..." 9. Ezekiel 32:30-31 -- "The Zidonians which are gone down with the slain ... Pharaoh shall see them and shall be comforted, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword." 10. Luke 16:19-31 -- the rich man and Lazarus who had died spoke to each other. Anyone else have more verses? Please post. | ||
| Max |
Thanks, Joshua of the Rock! I marked all those the texts in my NIV Study Bible using a Hi-Liter Glide Stick. (It doesn't bleed through the paper!) And I noted each text in the margin with "vs. soul sleep." Thanks again, Max of the Cross |
