| Author | Message | ||
| Jtree |
Your Doctrines! In doctrine you differ radically from evangelical churches. The main points are these as taught in all your books: You hold to the materiality of all things; believe in the sonship of Christ; believe that you only have a correct understanding of the prophecies to which you give most of your attention; that the end of the world is to occur in this generation; that we are now in the Judgment which began in 1844; that the Seventh day, Saturday, must be kept; that keeping Sunday is the mark of the beast; that all should pay tithes; that Mrs. White is inspired as were the writers of the Bible; that the Bible must be interpreted to harmonize with EGW's writings; that you are called of God to give the last warning to the World; that the dead are unconscious; that the wicked and the devil will be annihilated; that all churches but your own are Babylon and rejected of God; that everybody but yourselves will soon become spiritualists; that when Christ comes only 144,000 out of all of you living on the earth will be saved, and all these will be Seventh-day Adventists. Hence, you have no fellowship with other Christians; never work with us in any way, but zealously proselyte from all. Your Hostility to All Other Churches One of the highly objectionable features of your system is the bitter hostility of its believers towards all other churches. Your theory is that all churches but your own were utterly rejected of God in 1844 for not embracing Miller's doctrine. Thus Mrs. White says: "I saw the state of the different churches since the second angel proclaimed their fall [in 1844]. They have been growing more and more corrupt.... Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body.... The churches were left as were the Jews; and they have been filling up with every unclean and hateful bird. I saw great iniquity and vileness in the churches; yet they profess to be Christians. Their professions, their prayers and their exhortations are an abomination in the sight of God. Said the angel, God will not smell in their assemblies. Selfishness, fraud and deceit are practiced by them without the reprovings of conscience." Spiritual Gifts, Vol. I, page 189,190. She says it is the devil who answers our prayers. Thus: "I saw them look up to the throne and pray, Father give us thy spirit; Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence." Early Writings, page 47. Again: "The nominal churches are filled with fornication and adultery, crime and murder, the result of base, lustful passion; but these things are kept covered." Testimonies, Vol. II, page 449. All intelligent people know that such statements are a misrepresentation of the evangelical churches today. Elder White says: "Babylon, the nominal church, is fallen; God's people have come out of her. She is now the synagogue of Satan." Present Truth. April, 1850. Hence you say that the revivals and conversions in the churches are largely a deception, the work of the devil, not of God. Mrs. White says of them: "The converts are not renewed in heart or changed in character." "They will exult that God is working marvelously for them, when the work is that of another spirit. Under a religious guise, Satan will spread his influence over the land. HE HOPES TO DECEIVE MANY BY LEADING THEM TO THINK THAT GOD IS STILL WITH THE CHURCHES." Great Controversy, page 294, 296. On this the Review and Herald, May 3, 1887, says: "we are aware that to assume that this revival work, so unquestionably accepted by all the churches, is not genuine, will cause the hands of Christendom to be raised in holy horror.... If He [God] is with us, He has not been with the popular churches in any marked manner since they rejected the Advent message of 1843-4, and they are congratulating themselves over delusive appearances, and a prosperity which has no existence in fact. The hand of God cannot direct two movements so antagonistic in nature." Believing this, you eagerly watch for evidence to prove it and shut your eyes to any facts against it. So you rejoice at any unfavorable thing you can hear against ministers, churches, or members. You report it, repeat it, publish it, magnify it, and live on it. To weaken, divide, or break up a church, is your delight. You heartily join with worldlings, infidels and atheists in your opposition to churches, and thus strengthen your unbelief and help them to perdition. You have gathered up all the most unfavorable things possible to find against the churches, and the Brethren and put it in a book occupying thirty pages, and this you hand out for all to read. It is sad to see honest men devoting their lives to such highly censurable work, which must please Satan well. Who is Deceived? Seventh-day Adventists dwell much on how easy it is to be deceived, to be led by Satan, when we think it is the Lord - to believe a lie for the truth. It is amusing to see how innocently you apply this to all others, and never dream that is has any application to yourselves! "What, WE deceived? We misled? Impossible! We KNOW we are right. Exactly, and that is just the way you all feel, whether they be Mormons, Shakers, Roman Catholics, or what not. You Adventists yourselves are an illustration of the ease with which people are misled. Joshua of the Rock! | ||
| Max |
Joshua of the Rock, You are amazing! It's really great to see the Holy Spirit "come upon you" and use you to find your own voice and to use it to witness so powerfully to our Adventist friends. "Babylon is fallen, is fallen! Come out of her My people!" Max of the Cross | ||
| Chyna |
SWEDISH MEATBALLS are you guys getting hungry yet? it is really neat how God has been using even my involvement with an SDA to witness to other people about the true grace of salvation. i had to try to explain a cult to my swedish friend, so i picked an analogy close to his heart: swedish meatballs so i thought i'd share it here with a smile: i think being a christian is so beautiful because of Salvation: that we are saved from sin not because we are worthy and good, but out of undeserved favor, Jesus has rescued us. so we are happy we are saved, nothing can change that. but! the cult my ex-b/f is in says that you have to do "good" to stay saved. but it is a lie, not in the Bible at all. so they lessen the beauty of salvation they make it into something it is not. i hope this helps you understand a little bit better. it's like making swedish meatballs (salvation), so you know what swedish meatballs taste like and they are very yummy and delicious, then, someone else (cult) comes along and takes out the meat in the recipe. and then they begin to share it with other people saying: these are swedish meatballs (without meat) (the cultic doctrine), and then people who have never tasted *real* swedish meatballs are eating these meatless swedish meatballs thinking they are eating the real thing, but the KEY thing in making them swedish meatballs is gone! they are deceived! everyone who is ignorant will think the fake swedish meatballs are the real thing. then you would be mad because what they are eating is NOT swedish meatballs, that the REAL swedish meatballs are being uneaten because of these other people that came along and took out the part that made them meatballs in the first place. heehee isn't it funny that i had chose to say they (SDA's) had taken out the MEAT (of salvation)? hahaha, sometimes i kill myself ;). anyone else hungry for REAL swedish meatballs and mashed potatoes? I am! in Him, Chyna | ||
| Max |
In Him indeed, Chyna! I'm thinking of Christ wearing a Maintenance Man's Uniform while he is hanging on the cross. Meaning: He not only imposes salvation on us, he also MAINTAINS it all our lives long. It is indeed cultish and a great evil to say, "You have to do 'good' to stay saved. Bzzzzzzzzzzt -- wrong answer! All you have to do to stay saved is to keep trusting and following Christ as He leads you. -MC | ||
| Max |
And even that isn't keeping you "stayed saved," for in my opinion, at least, there is a sense in which "once saved always saved is true." | ||
| Dale |
Haven't been posting for awhile, but this morning I spent some time reading the Gospel of Mark. I found some texts that spoke to my heart and are quite in line with this topic. It seems that this same attitude of exclusiveness was a problem for the disciples. Note the response of Jesus: Mark 9:38-42 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. Metaphorically, we have all been handed a cup of water to drink in His name by our fellow Christians with different doctrinal beliefs. Thankful to be a CHRISTIAN! | ||
| Max |
Wonderful Scripture, Dale. What if I were stranded in a desert area of India and a Hindu extended hospitality and saved my life: * Would that Hindu "lose his reward" because he is a Hindu? * Could he be considered to be "on the part" of Christ and His church? * And if I offended him -- say, by demanding that he must accept Jesus here and now or go to hell -- would it be better for me that a mill- stone were hanged about my neck and that I be cast into the sea? | ||
| Valm |
Are we talking about exclusiveness in excluively a Christian (professing Christ) but have different doctrinal beliefs. Or are we talking about exclusively believing a certain way? What do other religions out side of Christianity have to do with this? I am not getting it Max. Is this a trick question? :) I dare not express what I believe about other religions and oour approach to the people in them, as it would seem as heresy to others. And I am for sure there are a list of Biblical quotes that could support my heresy. | ||
| Max |
Valerie, No tricks. I think this passage in Mark is more about the sovereignty of King Jesus than anything else. Elsewhere Jesus said, "Other sheep have I not of this fold." It is a denial of His sovereignty that seeks to divide the body of Christ or to exclude people from the province of Christ by what doctrinal facts they accept as true rather than to allow Christ to determine who belong to Him and how we should behave toward them. NIV 1 Corinthians 1:10-17: "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lrod Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, 'I follow Paul'; another, 'I follow Cephas [Peter]'; still another, 'I follow Christ.' "Is christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel -- not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." -mc | ||
| Dale |
Hi Max, You asked some excellent questions and I wish I had excellent answers, but you will have to tolerate my own thoughts. Fortunately, the reward, presumably eternal salvation of the Hindu you mentioned is not dependent on my opinion! As you and Valerie discussed above, the matter of a non-Christian is a totally different subject than what was discussed in Mark and the great quotes you gave from Paul in 1 Corinthians. In reference to a non-Christian, the texts that immediately come to mind reflect that of the Gentile without the Jewish Law (or a knowledge of the Gospel). Rom 2:12-16 "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified". "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel". As a Christian, I believe that my acceptance of Jesus Christ's atonement on the cross is my ONLY means of the "reward". However, I do believe that if someone has never heard (or understood) the true Gospel and accepted Christ, for that person, living in accordance with the moral principles written on his/her heart, there is a "reward". As to your last question: <<And if I offended him -- say, by demanding that he must accept Jesus here and now or go to hell -- would it be better for me that a mill- stone were hanged about my neck and that I be cast into the sea?>> My answer is yes! I do not believe we have the right to offend anyone, Christian or non-Christian. Who are we not to "demand" that anyone accept Jesus when Jesus Himself does not demand. We cannot assume the work of the Holy Spirit whose responsibility it is to convict. My thoughts and you all can agree or disagree. Thankful for my reward in Him, Dale | ||
| Dale |
OOPS, typo... Who are we to "demand" that anyone accept Jesus when Jesus Himself does not demand. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Enoch preached during a 120 year probation time? Ellen says: "God determined to purify the world by a flood; but in mercy and love He gave the antediluvians A PROBATION OF ONE HUNDRED TWENTY YEARS. During this time, while the ark was building, the voices of NOAH, METHUSELAH,, and many others were heard in warning and entreaty, and every blow struck on the ark was a warning message... THE SERMON PREACHED BY ENOCH, and his transition to Heaven was a convincing argument to all living in Enoch's time. IT WAS AN ARGUMENT THAT METHUSELAH AND NOAH COULD USE WITH POWER to show that the righteous could be translated." SDA Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White Comments, vol. 1, page 1088 Where in the Bible does it say Noah and Methuselah used Enochs sermon, of which I have never seen in Scripture either. And if it was so convincing, Enoch's sermon and translation, why was there only 8 people on the ark? What else is wrong with this picture? Am I reading this all wrong? God Bless, Denise, still researching and needing answers | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Sigh....still no answers....:( Denise | ||
| Cas |
Denise- You will be looking forever to find things in the Bible that Ellen White said. There are probably hundreds of things Ellen has said that are not in the Bible. I am not sure on the subject of Enoch preaching for 120 years, but wouldn't be surprised if thats not another one of Ellen's exclusives. Does anyone know what happened to Lynn W. She was on this forum a year or so ago, and she was a wealth of information and insight on ellen White. Just my 2 cents worth. CAS | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Cas, You are so right on with this. I'm finding so many things that I want to scream it out from the top of a mountain to all adventists. Sheesh..this woman called Ellen G. White is someone I would have had words with, believe me. I would have been one of her cases in one of her 'testimonies to the church.' Infact, I probably would have been mentioned by her frequently as an example of 'who no to be like.' :)) grrrr! I'll tell ya, I never ever EVER want to be like ellen white. Not in a Zillion years..NEVER. God Bless you Cas, Denise, your sister in Christ Jesus |
