| Author | Message | ||
| Shellep |
Hello all, My mother has a friend who is a former. She and my family has been out of the SDA church for maybe 4 months now. In our leaving the SDA church emotionally and spiritually all of us went through some trials, but praise God we have gotten through it. My mom's friend seems not to have bounced back so easily as others. At first she accepted the information given to her, and was so very willing to leave the SDA church. Now, I say...... within the last 2 or 3 weeks she's fallen into a spiritual slump. She say's she's depressed, but she won't say about what. She won't even talk about the Lord like she used to. In SDAism she was so willing to talk about the Lord and what she tought was true christianity. Now. her conversations consist of "How are you?" "I'm Blessed" "God is good" etc. Recently we celebrated a former SDA's b-day. All of us had a ball. We talked about our freedom, and how messed up we were. Even laughed about a lot of the teachings we believed. It was wonderful. It's just the only person that didn't vent and speak on their feelings were her. Also, today my mother spoke with her and she seems much worse today than before. She's finding it much more difficult to read her word. She says that when she picks it up she feels like she's reading a foriegn language she says she doesn't get any understanding at all. She says her prayer life is nill to none, and my mother feels that she's suicidal. Once in adventism she said that she was going to commit suicide because she couldn't live up to the standards that they have set up. Now she's saying since she's been out that she can't wait till this is all over. and she didn't mean Jesus' coming. TO tell you a little bit about her she's extremely stuborn and can't stand for anyone to tell her what to do. so if anyone can work with this iformation please give me and my mother your oppinions or advice. thanks Rushelle | ||
| Valm |
Rushelle, Your friend might be experiencing deep grief from the dramatic changes that have her occured in her life. Leaving the culture of Adventism can bring about deep grief feelings similar to the death or a loved one. Your friend might be experiencing the deep anxiety that occurs when one is not quite convinced that the path out of Adventism is the right path. Some people's whole purpose in life had been for the church and before they feel what true grace is about they are in a limbo of sorts and wonder so what is the purpose anyhow. They are deeply feeling their dilusionment. I refer to Adventism as having its hooks in people because it is hard to shake some of the very ingrained doctrines that we have heard over and over again. I would rager that many people go in and out of Adventism several times before they can completely shake it. First and foremost keep loving this person and keep contact with her. she needs that constant denominator of love acceptance and understanding. I reccomend to you the book TOXIC FAITH as a good book for both you and your friend to understand the process of leaving an abusive faith. Therese had reccommended another title of a book under the thread on abuse and addiciton. Many people who leave Adventism can't pray. This is another one of those hooks. EGW reitterates over and over in her writings that if our standards of behaviors are not up to par, God will not hear our prayers. In working with child development, neurologists purpose that it takes redoing something many times over to correct the imprintation of the brain of doing something incorrectly one time. So for example ,if a young child learns to form a letter incorrectly, it takes about 8 or ten times doing it correctly for each time they did it wrong to get their brain to do it right all of the time. So you can imagine if your friend has heard that her prayesrs are no longer answered if she leaves Adventism's path how many times she has to hear that Jesus will never leave or forsake her before her body actually understands it. My aunt told me something very insightful about myself and Bible study. She told me I still read the Bible like an Adventist. It took years for me and I am just beginning to emerge from this. This may be part of why the Bible seems so difficult for her to read. I found for many years my spiritual reading encompassed books like Chicken Soup series, Don't Sweat the Small Stuff, Stories of Courage, ect. These books put me into contact with the concept that there were real people out there who believed in God had a connection with him and were living their life more abundantly because of that connection and they were not Adventists. I am not saying these books should take the place of the Bible but perhaps your friend is just not ready for heavy Bible reading for a while. I have found much assurance that SDA is a false truth from the CULTIC DOCTRINE book by Radtzlaff as mentioned before. I am finding much comfort from the New Covenant Chrisitian book that can be copied online from graceplace.org. Perhaps your friend would respond to getting together as a group and sharing these or other books. No one will be telling her what to do but will be inviting her to come and share her opinions. I hope that these ideas along with others will collectively help you. There is no black/white thinking here. You and your family know your friend well and with prayer andcreative discussion you will be able to support her through this process. Take care Rochelle. Valerie | ||
| Max |
Hi Rushelle, Sounds like you yourself have gone through something of a ìtime of troubleî yourself, leaving a .legalistic system. But now it seems you are all right without it. If thatís so, isn't it because you have found something better? Isnít freedom in Christ better than slavery to a legalistic system? You wrote that when your momís friend left SDAism she accepted ìthe INFORMATION given her.î Isnít there a difference between accepting information about the settled completeness of Christís salvation and accepting that salvation itself? Seems to me that information ABOUT assured salvation is not exactly the same thing as the assured salvation itself. It does sound as though she hasnít really grasped the gospel with both hands yet. Or maybe she really is clinically depressed. Remember that Scripture contains examples of new Christians whoíve fallen into what from the outward appearance seems to be clinical depression. From a purely human point of view, Paul seemed to have been in a terrible slump for three years after finding Christ on the road to Damascus. He had been born again from above and he became an infant, a breast- feeding Christian. It sounds as like your friend in her new experience has gone almost, but not quite silent, but the words ìIím blessedî and ìGod is goodî are better far than what most clinically depressed people say about themselves. I donít know for sure, obviously, but I might wonder a bit: Maybe the willingness of your momís friend to talk about ìwhat she was taughtî -- namely, spiritual slavery -- in Adventism is now only nostalgia, a sense of remembered, familiar ìgood old daysî of the security of spiritual slavery and domination. "Good old days" that were never really everything the traumatized memory says they were. Slavery does offer a kind of security, you know. The black slave of America had food to eat, water to drink, clothes to wear, shelter from the rain and cold, a bed to sleep in. All these things are elements of security. Yet the slave was still not free. The slave was subject to a human master who could and did impregnate her, another man's wife and mother of his children, on a whim (a black- white slave baby mix was worth more on the slave market block than a pure black slave baby) or sell her husband on a whim down the river to New Orleans. Think of the newly freed American slaves: What were they going to eat? Drink? Wear? Where could they find shelter from the rain and snow and cold? Where were they going to find real jobs that paid real money with which to buy the things that provide security? But they were free! No white master could any longer impregnate a black man's wife, nor sell her husband away from the family down the river in New Orleans. Freedom can be very frightening. Terrifying. I remember an old Elvis Presley tune in which he was longing, wailing for ìthe freedom of my chainsî in his previous commitment to a dominating, controlling lover. And spiritual freedom can be especially terrifying, since it deals with oneís eternal destiny. And if it is grounded in INFORMATION alone -- and Iím NOT saying that this is the case with your momís friend -- then the depression can be easily understood. It would be a natural consequence of the frightening aspects of the terrifying freedom. Which is having only a head knowledge of Christ. Which has no real heart knowledge. Remember, James said ìeven the demons believe and tremble.î Thatís because they have a thoroughly cold, intellectualized understanding of the gospel and what it means for them -- eternal death. But they do not have the ìsaving heart knowledge.î And yet your momís friend confesses that she is blessed, not cursed, and knows Godís goodness. And that confession is certainly a positive sign! Iím sorry to hear that she didn't seem to have as good a time at the former SDAís b-day as the rest and that today she seems much worse than before. But I wouldnít be too quick to judge her condition as fatal just because sheís finding Scripture reading more difficult now, more like a foreign language. If anything, thatís a very positive sign, a sign of recovery, not relapse. Of course Scripture sounds to her more like a foreign language. Thatís because our friends the Adventists are the ones who taught her how to read! Scripture SHOULD read more like a foreign language now. If it didnít I would be much more worried about her spiritual health and well being than I am. She is a baby Christian. She needs spiritual breastmilk. And praise God there is a great overabundance of Godís breastmilk in Scripture for babes in Christ -- such as * John 3, * 1 Corinthians 13, * Matthew 5 & 6, * all the healings of Jesus, * the story of the woman taken in adultery, * nearly all of Christís parables (e.g., the prodigal son), * Romans 8:18-38, * Romans 12, * the whole book of Ephesians, * all of 1 John, and, * many other wonderful, comforting, healing, enlightening passages whose meaning can never be fully exhausted. Your motherís friend sounds to me like a person who is very precious to Jesus -- one of the ìlittle ones who believes in me.î If anyone offends such a person, Jesus says, ìIt is better for him if a millstone were hanged about his neck and he be drowned in the middle of the sea.î Has she considered the following passage? NIV John 14:1-6: ^^"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God ; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.î^^ That one has helped me many times in my life. Jesus is the Good Shepherd and he leads his sheep and feeds his lambs very very gently, and keeps the evil one away from them with his shepherdís rod. Iím sure there will be many readers of FAFF who will COME OUT OF THE WOODWORK now and offer to pray for her. Okay, all of you wonderful lurkers out there -- Colleen? Cindy? Bruce? Maryann? Denise? -- hereís your chance! In Godís love for her and for you, Max of the Cross | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Um, Max, did you just call me a 'lurker?' why I otta, I otta...:)) Rushelle, I will pray for your friend and everything Max has said I've seen with my own eyes in others. The things that your friend is going through is the feeling of a loss of something, although she may not be able to put a finger on what that something is just yet. Keep her close to your heart and pray to our Lord. He knows what she is feeling and thinking and He will work His Will for her benefit. There is a person that I currently have in my life that also has this depression. Although, like your friend, he can say 'God is Good' and other such things, he cannot read the Bible and understand it. He has gone through all of the sda schools and in the Church all his life. He feels a loss but doesn't know what that is, and of course we can't know the real loss they feel unless they can finger it themselves and name it too. Although I have left the Church behind me and I claim that I have no regrets, I will say that I have eluded to nights where they are just gloomy, depressing and there is a feeling of loss. Even though I'm not sure at that time EXACTLY what that loss is, eventually, it hits me that it is the bond with the people I knew while attending Church. It is also that once believed doctrine that I clung to for my security. Tis true, I have nights like that and they are not just nights sometimes, but days in a row. Soon though, the darkness fades and light enters. I read and reread forums like this and other books that help support me through this transition. Although I know I've claimed that my transition from SDAism has been easy, I have many other doctrines from my earlier life that I still have to fight to let go of. These are what can have me feel a loss. The not celebrating of the feasts or the not going all week without any leaven in the house routine etc. To your friend I would say, cling to the Lord and His promise that He will NEVER leave her nor forsake her. NEVER. He loves her with everlasting love and is guiding her, even through what she would consider a wilderness at this time. Remind her to keep the faith nomatter what our feelings are. God is with her even at this moment. My prayers and encouragement to your friend and if you wish, feel free to give your friend my email address: Lampdot@aol.com if she ever wants to talk. Because I too, could use the email exchange. May our God of Peace shine His face upon you, your family and your friend. your sister in Jesus Christ, Denise | ||
| George |
Rushelle, It takes a special kind of logic to reach someone that is considering suicide, especially when they have had their spiritual belief system come crashing down. For this reason I would find someone at suicide prevention to help you help her. Because her beliefs have crashed, spiritual things may not be the way to reach her. But you can always witness to her by letting her see you live your faith. Please, talk to a professional in this area, it is VERY important. George | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Yeah but,, Rushelle, if your friend decides to call the 'suicide prevention hotline,' I would advise her not to tell them that she is suicidal, unless she caters to being locked up. Because the minute she says she is suicidal, they will dispatch 911 to her door. And the little men, with their straps and all will come to her aid alright. They will strap her down, take her to some nut hut in the vicinity and have her doing the Thorazine shuffle within a few days. Once there, she is completely helpless and is at the hands of people who are on some power trip to keep the 'clients' silent. I know, I've been there, done that. And I was crazy enough to do that more than once! Never EVER EVER again. Being locked up is not any help for me, for me it made matters worse. I'm a real cynic of the 'system'. You can take that to the bank. The system sucks. They really don't care and are there for their paychecks. They are not going to listen to what is really going on, rather, they will label your friend, drug her to oblivion, then eventually let her loose and nothing has been done to address the 'real problem' and she is back to square one. Personally, I do NOT trust the system in these matters. I used to work in these systems. I know how they talk amongst themselves about each client and I know how much they do NOT care about the welfare of the client. Rather, they are there for their paychecks. If anyone has a problem with what I'm saying, I suggest that you come to my home and I will show you what the system has done to me. You can also count on hearing it verbally and with passion. These opinions expressed are the opinions of Denise L. Gilmore. They do not necessarily represent the opinions of the FAF forum network. Thank you. :) P.S. This same system locked me up for being assaulted with a survival knife and had a genocide performed on me with that same knife. The system could have cared less of my state of shock, sadness, pain or anything else. They only cared that I, as they so adequately put it, "Shut Up." Silence is Death. God Bless you all, Denise | ||
| George |
Denise, You have had a bad time with the system to be sure, but I have seem it work more times than not. Rushelle's friend is not the one I sugested call suicide prevention. It was Rushelle herself, so she cousd find the best way to help. It doesn't even have to be suicide prevention, but someone that knows what to, and what not to do when trying to help. What a tragity it would be to see someone die when they were confused about God because no one knew how to help. I would suspect there is a lot more going on than leaving SDAism. George | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Well then George, If it is Rushelle that you suggest do the calling, I stand corrected in my stance. Although, I've never seen a case yet that really was helped in the institutions. I, like yourself, suspect something more to it than leaving adventism too. If someone is going to commit suicide, they will do it with or without our help. This sounds harsh but is true. If someone REALLY wants to die, they wil find a way. Of course, I'm hoping that this depression of Rushelles friend will lift and that somehow she does find the right person to speak with. In no way do I condone suicide and yes, it would be a tradegy if it came to suicide. I would be sad and I don't even know this woman. Also, I believe that sometimes depression can be a good thing. It gives one a chance to sort out their thoughts in a deeper sense. Sometimes too, I believe that we all must go through a depression in order to better understand ourselves. I have had some awful depression in my life. Sometimes it would last a year or more. Other times, it would last but a few days. In each and everyone of these, I found that, although I did not enjoy being depressed, I did find new depths in me and I did get an item or two sorted in this chaotic mind of mine at that time. So for me, it has served it's purpose. I still have my depression always in the background and I don't know why. Nor do I question it any longer as I've just come to accept the fact that it's here and it's part of me. What can I do about it? Nothing. Drugs never helped me either, so I just live with a low level depression always. But my hope is in the Lord and the New World and Life that He promises us to have one day. This is what keeps me afloat. In the meanwhile, I hope Rushelle is reading this forum and will call someone to help guide her to better help her friend. God Bless us all and let's all pray for Rushelle's friend! Prayer is so powerful that it matters that we do. God Bless you George, Denise | ||
| Shellep |
Thanks so much for the advise guys. In a deep sence I feel that it's deeper than sdaism as well. Thanks Rushelle | ||
| Jay |
Rushelle, George is right. Your friend needs to talk to a professional. I strongly suggest that you help her to find a good Christian psychologist/counselor. You might call the pastors of several churches in your area and ask for recommendtions. The Yellow Pages might also help. I, myself, have battled depression that was intertwinded with my relationship with Adventism. Elements of that relationship included growing up Adventist and then leaving choosing to step outside of the comfortably black-and-white Adventist way of thinking. It was my good fortune to find a Christian psychologist who has helped me through the dark valley of grieving over the awareness that the Church of my upbringing has some very unhealthy things about it. Such a good psychologist or counselor will help your friend to hang onto the truths that Jesus loves her so much and accepts her as she is. Jesus will bring her to a brighter and more hopeful state of mind in time. He has done so for me. Rushell, you clearly are a compassionate friend who cares about your friend. May God help you to help her. In Christ's love, Jay | ||
| Shellep |
Hello, I greatly apprieciate all the wonderful prayers that were sent up for my mother's friend. She's getting much more chipper as time goes on. I pray God blesses you for you support \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ (praising God for the prayers, and him answering them) Thanks Rushelle 0<:o) | ||
| George |
Rushelle, Glad it is working. George |
