| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Patti, I like what you say about the Reformation battle cry being all about what Jesus Christ has already accomplished once for all time for all those who believe. I'm not quite so comfortable with this, however: ^^"No, thank you, Jesus, I do not need your mercy, I do not need your imputed righteousness." In essence this is what we are hinting at when we say that Christ's salvation is only initial; then it is up to us to complete and maintain it.^^ I do not believe that "Christ's salvation is only initial; then it is up to us to complete and maintain it." Never! It was complete and fully maintained from beginning to end on the cross. If you want texts, please indicate. Yours in Christ, Max of the Cross | ||
| George |
Max, What is the date and time of Patti's post you are quoting from. George | ||
| Max |
Hi George, Blessings and no hard feelings on my part. My love for you is mediated through Christ, for I admit that I am too sinful by far to accomplish that on my own. In answer to your question: By Patti on Wednesday, December 20, 2000 - 07:16 pm Christ-alone-maintained agape love to you, Max of the Cross | ||
| Patti |
George, Please do not get frustrated. I am trying! J We are not going to reach consensus, I am afraid, because of our divergent definitions of sin. I have tried to explain my beliefs about this. Let me try to clarify somewhat. Sin is everything we produce, George, because we are sinners. We can do nothing that is not tainted with sin. Just as one cannot get pure drinking water out of a sewer hose, so all of the works of our hands, before or after conversion, are as filthy rags. In other words, sin is not merely something we do, it is something we are. Max wrote: Thank you for returning to posting. I praise God that you wrote, ^^If we believe it, however, it makes a great deal of difference in how we live here and now,^^ if by that you mean being dead to sin (Romans 6-8). To clarify: I mean when we have confidence that the doing and dying of Jesus Christ has won our salvation to the uttermost, we can live confident and joyful lives, resting in His divine mercy. We are free to be what we are--weak and erring humans--and not pretend that we are anything else. We can accept our neighbor just as he is because we have been accepted just as we are; we can rejoice that the God of the universe would stoop to the form of lowly humanity and take upon Himself the task of reconciling us to God. We are dead to sin in that it no longer has dominion over us; our sinful flesh can no longer separate us from God. The power of sin has been broken; Christ has overcome and stands in the place of sinful humans who trust in Him before the great judgment throne. Christ is our Substitute in life and in death. It is finished. The victory is won. We can live, by faith, in the kingdom of heaven right now. But we will remain hopeless sinners until we are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. When we see Him we will be changed. Not before. As long as we live on this earth, we are sinners saved only by the mercy of God. Whenever we cease to regard ourselves as sinners, we cease to recognize our need of the Savior. Remember, the Pharisee even gave the "glory" to God in his prayer: "I thank THEE, God, that I am not as other men are." Whenever we witness to our own "righteousness," even if we give God the "glory," as the Pharisee did, we are boasting. There is only One who is righteous. Only One. To Him be all honor and glory forever, for He alone is worthy. | ||
| Valm |
George, I am trying to be as kind and helpful in this discussion as I can. I appreciate your frustration but you have been coming across in a very condescending tone. In your post at 7:13 you asked me What if they are not forgiven? I sincerely tried to answer that the best I can from my point of view. I answer and you come back and say that's not what you asked. This is a maddening and dysfunctional conversation. You asked Patti what you could have said that would give her the idea that you were seeing how much you could get away with. I had to chuckle inside because I have been thinking that all along but thought it would not be polite to say it. You ask her How hard can this be? From my side of the screen I am perceiving "come on guys don't be moronic here this is not rocket science." You let us know how you find it maddening and fascinating that we can't see the concept presented here. Are you suggesting that you are just above us in your conceptual thinking? Perhaps you are not willing to see the answers we give. Well I am just giving up on the whole thing for a few days. You may think what you like I have to seperate myself from this it is zapping my energy. I am trying my best and feel that I feel that I am getting nothing but verbal abuse in return. George, SIN is whatever you in your heart think it is. It is not for me to judge decide or do the thinking for you. You define what sin is and live accordingly. It is time for you to make up your mind and stop depending on others to do it for you. All the arguing in the world is not going to help. Valerie PS and as my hero Woody says...."BE NICE" | ||
| Patti |
George, Allow me to elaborate a bit more: I wrote: In other words, sin is not merely something we do, it is something we are. Which was the point I was trying to make earlier. Since we are sinners, everything we produce is sinful. But Christ does not merely forgive sins. He forgives sinners. Completely. My mother was looking at a world atlas with my children once when they were in elementary school. They came to a relief map of the ocean floor and the deepest known part of the ocean. (7 miles, I believe.) My daughter then asked Mom, "Is that where my sins are, Grannie?" I do not believe that God casts our sins to the depths of the sea one by one, dragging them all back up if we seriously screw up. No, it is complete and total forgiveness. So what is sin? Sin is what sinners produce. Christ has defeated sin and death. Christ has redeemed fallen man. All He wants us to do is to trust in Him. | ||
| Patti |
Valerie, Thank you for your responses. To be honest, I have mainly read George's posts since I was answering him directly, but I did read your immediately previous post. I recognize and appreciate your confidence that Christ is able to save you to the uttermost. Please do not get frustrated with us. George and I have a habit of bantering back and forth with each other, but we each know that there is a great deal of respect for each other on both sides. I strongly believe that the Gospel (salvation) is perceived only as it is revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. Believing thus, I must be patient and wait on the Lord to do His work of convicting and convincing. Please notice that I am not saying that anyone here has not been enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Even after the Gospel was revealed to me, it took several years for it to really "gel" in my mind. God is leading, and He leads everyone in His own way, His own time. How I would love to be able to convince everyone that I come in contact with of the profound peace that comes from knowing that one's salvation has been purchased in full! And that nothing, no one can ever snatch us out of the hands of our Savior! But they have to come to that understanding on their own, with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course. To use a very poor example, it reminds me of Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz when Glinda, the Good, tells her that she had the ability to go home to Kansas all along in the ruby slippers. Dorothy asks why Glinda did not tell her sooner. Glinda replies because you would not have believed me. Or something to that effect. So God has a purpose for leading us all in the manner in which He does. Salvation has been ours all along, we just have not believed it. We have believed that certainly there must be something we must do, something we must add to the work of Christ. But the answer has always been there: My grace is sufficient for you. How much easier the first 25 years of my life would have been if I could have truly believed that. But, on the other hand, my gratitude that God did reveal His Gospel to me at age 26 is profound. My mother was twice my age when the Gospel found her. God will do what God will do. He will reveal Himself to His chosen. How? It is not our business. When? That is for God to know. Who? Again, to speculate on that is messing with God's affairs. Our business is to live a life of thanksgiving for Christ's great salvation and to tell as many people as we can that Jesus Christ has saved the world by His life, death, and resurrection. | ||
| Max |
Thank you, Patti, That was beautiful. I would only differ in that: 1. We CONTINUE to be sinners -- even AFTER the "moment," the "twinkling of an eye" -- throughout ALL ETERNITY SINNERS. For the uninterruptable eternity of God begins now: The eternal kingdom of heaven begins now. Eternal hell now. Eternity destroyed by Adam's sin began anew when God-Christ came as a baby, when human-being Mary conceived God, birthed God, breastfed God, kissed God, sang to God, dandled God upon her knee, instructed God from the Old Testament. And God's eternity continued from that point forward no matter what. For nobody can do anything to stop it -- not SDAs by failing to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth, not Satan and all his demonic hordes, not anybody, nor anything! For just as, humanly speaking, "nothing can stop the U.S. Air Force," then, divinely speaking, nothing can stop God's eternity from going forward in human spacetime. 2. The boasting Pharisee did NOTHING (in the sense that he DID NOT change course). But the crestfallen thief (publican) did SOMETHING (in the sense that he DID change course): The tax-collecting, thieving publican "changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." For he: a. smote himself, b. repented, c. prayed, d. accepted, e. denied himself, f. obeyed God (stopped stealing), g. took up his cross, h. followed God-Jesus, i. began growing in grace, j. began running Paul's race, k. pummeled himself, l. strived. m. resisted the devil n. etc., etc., etc. (Texts available upon request.) The Pharisee remained passively unchanged-in-Satan, whereas the publican ACTED-in-Christ as a newly freed prisoner from Satan's chains-of-robbery. The difference between these two men is the difference between one entering God's eternal heaven and the other entering God's eternal hell. Christ-mediated love to you, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Ps. And what about all of these activities or good works entered into by the publican? Smiting himself, repenting, praying, accepting, denying himself, obeying God, going cold turkey on stealing, taking up his cross, following God-Jesus, growing in grace, running Paul's race, pummeling himself, striving, resisting the devil, etc., etc., etc. Question 1: Did they contribute towards the purchase of his ticket to heaven? Answer 1: How could they? He was already in heaven! Question 2: O legalism, O pharisaism, O SDAism, where are you now? Answer 2: In eternal hell. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
George, I believe that sin is our desire to control God. | ||
| George |
Val, You are right I have sounded condescending. Incredulous would be a more accurate word. I just can't understand why I can't get people on this forum to understand what I say. Out of the blue one day I asked Maryann what percentage of the time I was misunderstood on this forum. She didn't even have to think about it when she said 98%. So you can see why I have kept after this question so much and why as the day wore on I have become so incredulous. Add to this the fact that I explained this idea to a person at work and in 30 sec. she got the idea. These is a woman that grew up thinking a priest could forgive her, and then studied Mormonism because her church wouldn't forgive her divorce even though her ex nearly killed her. She then explained it to an agnostic friend of hers and she got it too. So, you can see why I got frustrated when I bring an idea that I am excited about to some people that are searching for knowledge and they don't get it, not only do they not get it they didn't seem interested in trying to figure it out. If I am only understood 2% of the time I have to wonder how much of the Bible you guys understand. I don't know why but I wonder these things. Be that as it may You have come about as close to answering my question as any one when you said, "George, SIN is whatever you in your heart think it is." Although I think by this time you just gave up and said what you thought I wanted to hear. Two out of three is good odds--66% one out of three is bad odds--33% but two out of a hundred--2%........Hmmm? On this note I think I best leave---George | ||
| George |
Max, By your answer I can see you didn't get the question as my question had only two choices not three. 2%.....Hmmmm? Not even. George | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello George, I've been reading this thread since the beginning and so now I will add my thought to your question. Your question (I'm paraphrasing of course), is sin going against our conscience or belief? I would say yes to that question. If I do or say something and then feel this sense of guilt, because I knew that I was not as polite as I could have been or as giving as I could have been, or I was absolutely selfish and I know this doesn't please our Lord, then I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts me of this. I feel badly and find myself trying to rectify it somehow. I will go to the person I said harsh words to and apologize or if I have lied in what people term as a white lie, which I don't believe there are differences in little or big lies, I will find myself convicted inside my gut and I know that this is the Holy Spirit telling me, hey, that wasn't really nice. So I go and tell the person, look, I have lied to you and I am sorry. I have no excuses when I apologize and it's not up to me if they accept my apology or not. I can only keep my side of the street clean. I am responsible for my actions. And my actions or words are not what you would call mother theresa. Sometimes I really am a bear and I really am a rotten person to others. In all these things, I feel the guilt as I know that they are and were wrong and I also am equally convinced that this is the work of the Holy Spirit convicting me. I make my ammends to the people that I've done this to, then I come back to my apartment and ask God to forgive me. I give God no excuses either because sometimes or most of the times, I cannot, to save my life, understand why it was that I did what I did or said what I said. This conscience of mine, which I believe is the Holy Spirit in action, will get to me. I simply cannot do things that are spiteful, resentful, dishonest, and the like and feel just fine with them. I feel guilty, as I should, and badly and then question myself as to why did I do that or say that. I am a sinner, but when I sin like some of these that I've shared, I'm also convicted of them and for my own benefit, I cannot help but make it right. If I don't make them right, I can't sleep, I can't eat, I feel terrible, I feel aloof from God..I know that this is the Holy Spirit working. There is not a soul alive that does not sin. But, if they realize it and feel badly, then they should try to do something about it to take that awful feeling away. Talking to God is my answer. I then ask Him to keep leading me and showing me because I know not what I do sometimes. I'm convinced that we cannot even repent without God bringing us to repentance. We cannot do anything. Only God is in control. Whatever sin is, who can put a name on it? The apostle Paul named quite a few, but in no way does he cover all sins in his writings as I believe there are more sins than can be counted and we are all sinners. So our God, the One who Created us, died for us because we are all such sinners. Because He did die so I can have this eternal life and blessings, I want to please Him. The Bible gives me guidance but also remember that God Himself put His laws in our minds and hearts. So when we find that we are feeling guilty over something and we do know right from wrong. I will not let anybody tell me that they didn't know it was wrong to lie, or steal, or hit somebody..when they tell me these things, I look straight at them and call them a liar. As they are lying. We are given the knowledge of right and wrong. What's right for me though may not necessarily be right for you George and vice versa. Just like on another thread about women's roles in Church. I beleive that, for me, it is right to teach what I know. But there are many who could disagree with me and tell me it's wrong. I go by what the Lord lead me to do. I answer to God and God alone in these matters. If my heart is calm and I have good nights sleep and I feel as though God is watching over me, then I don't lay there at night trying to figure out what sins I may have committed that day. As we sin all the day long. I rest in His Gift and Blessings. There have been times, that I wasn't resting in my soul and didn't know why. To this, I talked to God and kept asking Him to show me what it is that I must learn or what it is that I'm doing. Always, I am answered. Not necessarily that day or week, but eventually I'm answered and so I thank Him because I do know that He hears my tears. I also struggle with what I've been taught to be sins and non sins and what rests well with my soul. Sometimes I have found that many times that I felt that I was sinning, that it in reality was social pressure put on me or my upbringing. In other words, teachings of men. These are the things that I am currently working out in my life. So I go by what my soul tells me, not by what people or Churches or institutions tell me. Although sometimes they are right too. I'm not saying they are all wrong. But if it is well with my soul, then I am satisfied and feel that I am following our Lord in the path that He leads me. Another thing that you addressed and I cannot quote you as I would have to scroll up and try to find your words. But it had to do with something to the effect of do we have a choice in this salvation thing. I can only tell you my experience George. Almost two years ago, I was not looking for God nor attending Church, infact, I was not doing a whole lot and out of the blue, I picked up my dad's Bible that I've had for many years. I had never read the Bible and all of a sudden, here I was not only reading it but fascinated by this book called the Bible. I cannot put it down now and now my life is completely different than it was. Everyday, I search His Word and everyday, I talk to my Father in Heaven. It has become a real relationship and the best relationship I've ever had. I cannot compare a single human being to God. God is my friend, He is my Comforter, He is my Fortress and my Army. He is my Hope. These days my mind is continually on God and His ways. I am captured George and this is not what I was seeking. Or at least I didn't know it if I was. God sought me out. I will claim that I'm one of those branches plucked out of the fire. This is so true if you only knew what my past is like. God is the one I will answer to in the end, not people. It is God that judges my works, not people and it is God that saved me, inspite of my sins. Jesus Christ gave a list of sins in the Gospels but again here, I do not believe that this list are the only sins possible. I believe that sin is unlimited and there is no way to sit and try to name what is or is not sin. We have a very limited view of it, being sinners. The good news is that we have a better life than this one someday. And that world will be without sin completely. Can you imagine what that will be like? I cannot. I can try but being a sinner, it's hard to imagine. Anyhow, these are some thoughts George and my email address is Lampdot@aol.com if ever you would like to email me. I'm not a theologian but a simple person and would very much enjoy the exchange of email. God Bless you George. God Bless us all, everyone Denise P.S. these are random thoughts with no forethought as to what I would type but felt the need to be a part of this conversation as it helps me too. | ||
| Colleentinker |
George, I've come to believe that sin only makes sense once we understand that we are born dead (according to Epheians 2). I believe sin is being disconncected from Godóit's the condition into which we're born. We are born with dead souls. When we accept Jesus we immediately receive life; our souls are reconnected to God by the Holy Spirit, and nothing can take that life away from us! We're still in our sinful flesh, though, and we will be tempted and we'll sometimes succumb to that temptation. But as we grow in Christ we will more and more learn to recognize His voice in us, and we'll more and more be able to choose to act in love instead of in selfishness. But we will, in this mortal life, remain in our sinful flesh. Even though we are saved from sin and rescued from our state of spiritual death, we still are tempted to do things that we know go against the love of our Savior. Those things which go againsts what we know to be loving and true we can call "sins", but those are the hangers-on of our sinful flesh. Our now-living souls have already been rescued from SINóour separation from God! God does grow us into obedience to his love, but it's a loving, gradual awakening to his peace and rest and presence, not an external demand for perfection. Sin, I believe, is not an act or the lack of an act. Sin is, quite literally, separation from God. That separation is what Jesus died to save us from. That separation is what ends the instant we accept Jesus. We are saved from our SIN the moment we accept Jesus because we become spiritually alive instead of spiritually dead in that instant. The things we do after that which are not loving are acts born of our sinful flesh (which will be redeemed when Jesus comes back for us), but they do not define our salvation or lack of salvation. Whether or not we are under sin is determined by whether or not we have accepted Jesus and received a living soul. So, no; I don't think I would define sin as unbelief even though sin definitely involves unbelief. I would define it as having a dead soul, untouched by the life bought for us by the blood of Jesus! Does this address your question? I appreciate your frustration, George. I had a lot of trouble understanding sin until I understood about being born with a dead soul. Ultimately, though, it's not the understanding of sin which makes salvation attractive; it's the amazing, irresistable, life-changing love of Jesus which makes salvation desirable. I KNOW you have experienced that loveóand I hope you'll be able to find release from the plague of figuring out sin! With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Max |
Hi George, Probably way less than 0.001 percent would be more like it. Sometimes I feel as though I don't understand a word you post. I try, but I don't. Perhaps the only way I can communicate with you is to say God loves you. I don't love you. Not in and of myself. I'm way too sinful for that. But I do love you by way of Christ. That's the raw truth. God showed his love through Himself -- God Almighty dying on the cross. Because we were trying to control him and therefore the universe and our own destinies by way of manipulating him, He died. Then He resurrected Himself from the dead to show us that we CANNOT control him, but that He controls everything. And yet in His control, and only under His control, there is freedom, liberty, free will, joy, peace, love .... On and on without end. Outside of His control is only slavery, darkness, death and eternal hell. In Christ's love for you, Max of the Cross | ||
| Colleentinker |
P.S.óI do have to agree with Denise that God does call to to be accountable and to apologize and seek forgiveness when we commit sins that spring from our still-sinful flesh. But it's the fact that our souls have become alive in Jesus that gives us the recognition that we have been unloving and that gives us the desire to make things right. The Holy Spirit in us is faithful to nurture us and to make us more and more aware of the consequences of our actions. Before we have living soulsóbefore we are connected to Godówe can justify an awfully lot of behaviors that may not actually be loving. We may be JUST but unloving. We may have good reasons to be upset or to defend ourselves or to "get even". Before we are born from above, we do those things with a feeling of justification. After we are born again, however, we KNOW when we've been nasty, and we feel remorse. That only comes from God! Praise God for indwelling us and for making us alive in him! Colleen | ||
| Max |
Ps. I mis-wrote. I do not mean to say that there is ANYTHING outside of God's control. Satan and all demons are under his absolute control. So are the sinners Christ came to save. He did not come to save the righteous, even thougb they were and remain under His control. The (self)righteous occupy the center of the sphere we call eternal hell. | ||
| George |
Denise, BINGO!!! You hit the nail on the head when you told me you thought sin was going against your conscience and also on the idea that what was a sin for you may not be a sin for me. When a person can get some validation for their thought it shows that they are not totally out in left field. I am not fixated with sin, but if your sins are different than mine, and mine are different than Maryann's and hers are different than Colleens, How do I figure out what mine if there is no set rule are. You see what I mean? It seems logical if I do something my conscience tells me not to do, that, is one of MY sins. Now the next question, will my conscience tell me EVERY one of my sins? Denise thanks so much for writing, if you want to mull that last question over and let me know tomorrow, it would make this tired old man very happy. Colleen, Perhaps you could let my answer to Denise answer yours too. I have been at this since seven this morning and just can't write any more. George---the satisfied | ||
| George |
Max, By about the same percentage I don't understand you eather. I guess we will just have to agree we don't understand. What do you say? :-) George | ||
| Maryann |
Well Guyz, I thought I'd ask Mom if sinning against our conscience was a sin about 8pm and she just now ducked into her room! Whewwwww! It was a very draining discussion;-( I think George would like to know if y'all think it's a sin to eat cheese if "YOU" think eating cheese is a sin. I think that it is and so does she! It is going against your conscience! Using pork as an example, I asked Mom if it was a sin to eat pork even if it wasn't. She of course said it was a sin. If God said pork was un-clean, then it would be today also as God never changes! I told her that Noah was told to eat ALL the things that came out of the Ark and NONE were un-clean. I was quite amazed that she was totally un-aware of that little item. We went to the vision that Peter had about the sheet full of un-clean animals. I was informed that it was POINTING to how the Gentiles were NOT un-clean NOT the animals. (I lost the logic there!) She then mentioned that the Children of Israel were hankerin' for the flesh pots of Egypt and God gave them so many Quail (not in a Bush!) that they gorged themselves with meat and died of gluttony. I then had to show her in Genisis that they did NOT eat the meat, they were smote by God! This little go around this evening has showed me just how skewed the SDA are in so many teachings. I am just thrilled to the core that I was able to hold my own with her!!! That is the miricle of grace in action. The conversation expanded to the Sabbath of course and I also was able to hold my ground. When Revelation came up, she really had the floor as I figure that it is a revelation of Jesus and my revalating is coming from the other 65 books at this time;-) Soooooooooooo, yiiiiiiiiiiiiikes;-) I'm drained! Anyway George.....I think that Patti came the closest you will EVER get to the answer you want when she said: "Sin is everything we produce, George, because we are sinners." That fits your standard requirement of 10 words or less. I am very weary.......Sis |
