| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Patti, In another thread or perhaps this one or both, you have put in all caps the words 'through' and 'by' in regards to faith. You stated something to the effect that it is not 'by' faith but 'through' faith. Am I correct in reading this that way? If not, read no further and God Bless you. However, if I am correct then in a post I read that you wrote with regards to the 'through' vs 'by' faith statements are made, you are incorrect as shown above and there are many more Sciptures to back them as well. Who knows, it's after 4am and I could be reading all of these posts wrong.. If I'm incorrect in what I thought I read, then I will apologize now. Promptly signing off now to get some shuteye. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Patti again, It was this thread that you used the caps on the words 'through' and 'by' with regards to faith. But on the thread 'Testimony of Jesus....' I notice that many of these Scriptures I listed above are the very ones you used in the other thread. Just an observation. Also, what does 'delineate' mean? This is a word I do not know so I could be reading your post just opposite in meaning than what you are stating. Oh boy, I need sleep..nite. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Max |
"delineate" \ di-LIN-e-ate Meaning 1 a : to indicate or represent by drawn or painted lines b : to mark the outline of {lights DELINEATING the narrow streets} Meaning 2 : to describe, portray, or set forth with accuracy or in detail {DELINEATE a character in the story} {DELINEATE the steps to be taken by the government} --Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (Tenth Edition) | ||
| Max |
Darrell, ^^Cottrell ends the story by saying that he has often wondered how things would have been if he and Ford had spoken at opposite places.^^ "Methinks the lady doth complain too much." --Shakespeare. Imagined theater scene: Enter Ford (smiling to Cottrell): "I know martyrdom. I myself have been a martyr. And, brother, you're no martyr." Cottrell: "Brother, that was uncalled for!" Back to reality: It is my understanding that Cottrell holds rather closely with Ford on this core Adventist issue, with this face-saving exception: Cottrell believes that scholarship cannot prove the SDA distinctive sanctuary doctrine from Scripture alone, but CAN from EGW alone. Therefore the SDA church is correct in its acceptance of the doctrine as is and in toto. | ||
| Max |
Denise, Scripture uses "belief/believe" in two different ways. 1. In the sense of cold logical intellectual understanding only. Example: the book of James. 2. In the sense of a "heart" as well as a "head" belief. Example: the books of Paul. It is this second usage that you are rightly clinging to, rather than the first. | ||
| Max |
Ps. Denise, look in the dictionary for the multiple meanings of the word "believe" and the word "belief" to see that just as the koine Greek did, today's English has similar usages for "believe/belief." | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Thank you Max. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Billtwisse |
For those interested: There is a website dedicated to the Reformation view of justification as opposed to the Roman Catholic position: www.trinityfoundation.org Dr. John Robbins--the founder of the website--is a 'rebel' Presbyterian. He opposes the current trend favoring unity with the RC church--evidenced in the 'evangelicals and Catholics together (ECT)' and 'gift of salvation' statements--signed by massive numbers of evangelicals. Anyone convicted to do so may sign the opposing 'Reformation Day Statement' online. It has already been signed by Christian leaders such as D. James Kennedy, R.C. Sproul, Robert Morey, Norman Geisler, and Robert Reymond. Please do not be deterred by the fact that one SDA has signed the statement. We know that in the final analysis: SDAism will not stand up to the gospel. Some in that movement have fantasies (as I and many others once did) that synthesis of SDAism with the gospel is somehow possible. In the 'archives' section of the website are all of the past issues of the Trinity Review magazine. Most of the articles labeled 'edited by John Robbins' are old articles published by Robert Brinsmead in the 'Present Truth'--edited and made current by Dr. Robbins. Dr. Robbins supported Brinsmead heavily in the earlier days of his publishing venture, up until the September, 1976 fiasco on the doctrine of election. The Barthian theology espoused in that issue led ultimately to RDB's final rejection of Christianity. Some of the opposing letters of Dr. Robbins were published in the successive issues of Present Truth--after September of 1976. --Twisse | ||
| Max |
Thanks, Bill. I added that web site to my "favorites." | ||
| Cindy |
Bill, Thanks for the info. on the web site and interesting history on Dr. Robbins.... Do you still attend a Presbyterian PCA church? I miss the sermons from the one I attended back east. The Pastor and I had some good discussions and we have e-mailed back and forth now that I've moved to the west. He had a great series on Galatians. We disagreed over some of the points on the continuuing validity of the 10 Commandment Law as printed in the Westminster Confession; but on the whole, it was a refreshing break from all the convoluted reasonings of the 27 Fundlemental Beliefs of Adventism! I miss your studies, Bill...You need to post some more! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Rayna |
Twisse!! I just had to say that is great site for the true Reformation doctrine of Justification by faith alone before God. Thank you so much for this information!!.. Much appreciated!!! May God bless you,, Rayna | ||
| Max |
WE ARE FIGHTING FOR COSTLY GRACE Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote forcefully of the necessity for obedience to Christ as an evidence of true conversion. He stated, "Cheap grace is the deadly enemy of our Church. We are fighting today for costly grace...Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ." "The Christian Adventure: Beginning the Exciting Journey of Faith," BIBLE FELLOWSHIP LESSON (Winston-Salem, NC: Calvary Baptist Church, October 3, 1999), http://www.calvarybaptistchurch.org/education/ bflessons/99-00/10031.htm | ||
| Max |
FORGIVENESS WITHOUT REPENTANCE: CHEAP GRACE IS THE SUBSTITUTE GRACE WE BESTOW UPON OURSELVES: ^^Our mandate is to preach the gospel, being diligent in season and out of season. We are to show in word and deed to love and grace of God - without forgetting that God is also holy and just. In this struggle I think Dietrich Bonhoeffer is instructive when he writes: "...the grace which amounts to the justification of the repentant sinner who departs from sin and from whom sin departs. Cheap grace is not the kind of forgiveness of sin which frees us from the toils of sin. Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. ìCheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. ìCostly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will gladly sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble. It is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his net and follows Him. ìCostly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which we must knock. ìSuch grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and it is grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of His Son: "Ye were bought with a price," and what cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon His Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered Him up for us all. Costly grace is the incarnation of God. (Deitrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship, Collier Books, 1963, page 47-48)^^ Bonhoeffer quote from Rev. Stuart Fletcher, pastor of the United Presbyterian Church in Milford, Connecticut, in a letter written July 16, 1999 to Presbyterian Welcome: Inclusive Churches Working Together, 351 East 74th Street, New York City, NY 10021 http://www.presbycoalition.org/ForYourReflecti on%20071699.htm | ||
| Max |
CHEAP OR FALSE GRACE DISOBEYS THE TRUE GOSPEL COMMAND TO REPENT ìThe Gospel tells us to repent and believe, to take up the cross and follow Christ, or, as we say, to make our personal decision for Christ as our Lord and Saviour. That is something that each of us must do, for no other human being can substitute for us in that ultimate act of man in answer to God -- no other, that is, except Jesus. If we do not allow him to substitute for us at that point, we make his atoning substitution for us something that is partial and not total, which would finally empty it of saving significance.î --Thomas F. Torrance, THE MEDIATION OF CHRIST (Colorado Springs: Helmers & Howard, c 1992 by Torrance), p. 84. | ||
| Max |
REAL GRACE: REFORMER CALVIN SHOWS HOW YOU CAN BE SURE IT'S YOURS CALVIN'S TEXT: 2 Corinthians 7:11 (NIV): See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done.î CALVIN'S COMMENTARY: ^^ "Turn again, and repent, that your sins may be blotted out." [ Acts 3:19.] Yet we must note that this condition is not so laid down as if our repentance were the basis of our deserving pardon, but rather, because the Lord has determined to have pity on men to the end that they may repent, he indicates in what direction men should proceed if they wish to obtain grace. Accordingly, so long as we dwell in the prison house of our body we must continually contend with the defects of our corrupt nature, indeed with our own natural soul. a Plato sometimes says that the life of a philosopher is a meditation upon death; but we may more truly say that the life of a Christian man is a continual effort and exercise in the mortification of the flesh, till it is utterly slain, and God's Spirit reigns in us. Therefore, I think he has profited greatly who has learned to be very much displeased with himself, not so as to stick fast in this mire and progress no farther, but rather to hasten to God and yearn for him in order that, having been engrafted into the life and death of Christ, he may give attention to continual repentance. b Truly, they who are held by a real loathing of sin cannot do otherwise. For no one ever hates sin unless he has previously been seized with a love of righteousness. a This thought, as it was the simplest of all, so has it seemed to me to agree best with the truth of Scripture. (Sins for which there is no repentance or pardon, 21-25.) ^^ "Repentance According to 2 Corinthians 7:11 from John Calvin's INSTITUTES OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION, Vol 3, p 76-86. Read the entire chapter by going to: http://www.peacemakers.net/unity/jcrepentanc e.htm Website: PeaceMakers International, Inc. Security Box 1095 Wheaton, IL 60189 630.668.1205 PeaceMakers.net | ||
| Patti |
Grace is God's unfathomable and infinite mercy toward sinful humans. It cannot be false. | ||
| Max |
Yes, Patti, grace is God's unfathomable and infinite mercy toward sinful humans and cannot be false. Therefore, false grace comes not from the true Christ but from the many antichrists that have come into the world since the ascention of Jesus Christ. 1 John 2:18ÝDear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 1 John 2:22ÝWho is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 4:3Ýbut every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. 2 John 1:7ÝMany deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. God bless you, | ||
| Max |
Any teaching that does not accord with Scripture is false. False grace is one of these teachings. False teachings are legion and come from false prophets, false Christs, false apostles, deceitful workmen, masqueraders, false brothers, false teachers, wolves in sheeps' clothing, inflitraters, spies, spirits "not from God," etc. Matthew 24:11Ýand many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:24ÝFor false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. Mark 13:22ÝFor false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible. Luke 6:26ÝWoe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets. Acts 13:6ÝThey traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, 2 Corinthians 11:13ÝFor such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:26ÝI have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. Galatians 2:4Ý[This matter arose] because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 1 Timothy 1:3ÝAs I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines 1 Timothy 6:3ÝIf anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 2 Peter 2:1ÝBut there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. 1 John 4:1ÝDear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Revelation 2:2ÝI know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. Revelation 16:13ÝThen I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. Revelation 19:20ÝBut the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. Revelation 20:10ÝAnd the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. | ||
| Max |
False grace is a teaching that denies the necessity of repentance producing fruits of the Holy Spirit inside the believer. Matthew 3:8ÝProduce fruit in keeping with repentance. Luke 5:32ÝI have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 24:47Ýand repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Acts 5:31ÝGod exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. Acts 20:21Ý.... both Jews and Greeks ... must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus. Acts 26:20Ý.... I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. 2 Corinthians 7:9Ý.... I am happy ... because your sorrow led you to repentance.... 2 Corinthians 7:10ÝGodly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation.... 2 Peter 3:9ÝThe Lord ... is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Thus real grace is a spiritual reality or truth, and it is recognized by ALL the great Reformers. | ||
| Patti |
Max, Your views are much more in line with the Council of Trent, Canons on Justification. Especially number nine below in which grace is defined, not only as God's infinite mercy toward sinful humanity, but also the regenerating force that enables the believer to keep the commandments. Also notice number 20 and 21 which call anyone anathema who maintains that we are no longer obliged to keep the commandments. I am praying that you will read and understand the differences between the Council of Trent and the Gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone preached by the reformers. ==================== JUSTIFICATION CANONS -------------------- CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that man, drawn by the Holy Spirit, has no cooperating role to play in preparing himself for obtaining Justification. Man has an active role in his salvation. ------------------ CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that man no longer has a free will because of Adam's fall. --------------------- CANON VII.-If any one saith, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; or that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins: let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that all our works before Justification are sinful, or that the harder we try to make ourselves acceptable to God, the more we sin. --------------- CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that one is saved by faith alone, without human effort. --------------- CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that we are justified without the merit of Christ, as well as to say that we are justified by the merit of Christ alone. ------------------ CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that we are saved (justified) solely by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ, or by the forgiveness of sins alone, to the exclusion of the regeneration of the heart by the infused grace of the Holy Spirit. Likewise, it is heresy to say that this grace is only the unmerited favor of God toward the believer. --------------------------- CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that the faith that saves is nothing more than trust in the divine mercy which forgives sins for Christ's sake, and that we are saved by this faith alone. ---------------------------- CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that no one is truly justified except the one who truly believes he is justified, and that forgiveness and justification are brought about by faith alone. ------------------------- CANON XV.-If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that a justified man can assuredly believe that he is one of God's elect. ---------------------- CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema. --- It is heresy to say that the commandments of God are impossible to keep, even by the justified believer. ----------------------- CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that nothing but faith in Christ is commanded in the Gospel and that the ten commandments do not apply to Christians. ------------------------- CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that the justified believer is not bound to keep the commandments of God and the Church, but only to believe in Christ, as if the Gospel were a promise of eternal life granted without the condition of keeping the commandments. ----------------------- CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that Christ was given to men merely as a Redeemer in whom to believe to the exclusion of a Lawgiver who must be obeyed. ----------------------- CANON XXII.-If any one saith, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that the believer can maintain his justification without the help of God, or that he is not able to maintain it with God's help. -------------------------- CANON XXV.-If any one saith, that, in every good work, the just sins venially at least, or-which is more intolerable still-mortally, and consequently deserves eternal punishments; and that for this cause only he is not damned, that God does not impute those works unto damnation; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that even the good works of the justified believer are sinful and worthy of only eternal punishment, and the only reason that he is not damned is because God does not impute his works to him to damn him. ------------------------- CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that the just should not receive an eternal reward from God because of their good works which they perform through the grace of God if they persevere in good works and keeping God's commandments to the end. ------------------------- CANON XXXI.-If any one saith, that the justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal recompense; let him be anathema. ---- It is heresy to say that the believer sins when he does good works to earn an eternal reward. ------------------------- |
