| Author | Message | ||
| Billthompson |
Ken, Read further and you'll find there is only one way we will ever be "counted" as "perfect" as our Father in heaven and that is by grace through faith in Christ alone. No person has ever achieved sinless perfection on this earth and never will. We must rely on the plan of salvation Jesus made possible for us. You said before I am looking for the "easy" way out. I'll go one step further, I am looking for the ONLY way out. I fully realize I am not capable of living a perfectly sinless life regardless of how much I want to and I do want to. This is why I cry out for God's mercy and grace. As I said before the only way you can be satisfied with your own works of merit is if you are comparing yourself to other human beings. Compare yourself to the perfect standard of God and you'll cry out for mercy and grace. Many of Jesus' teachings were to show circumcised, law keeping, self righteous Jews that they were not in fact righteous but in need of a Saviour. I had a SDA write me and say he would be angry if it turned out that people who believed in salvation by grace and not works are right. He said, "That's not fair to those of us who have tried so hard to obey the 10 Commandments". Well, if it is justice he wants then none will be saved because none have ever lived a perfect life, not the Jews, Pharisees, Saducees, SDAs, Baptists, Methodists...we ALL need the grace of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. This is not the "easy" way. It is the ONLY way. A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Max |
Ken quoting Scripture: "Be ye therefore PERFECT, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Max quoting Scripture: "By one sacrifice he has made PERFECT forever those who are being made holy." | ||
| Darrell |
Ken, when Jesus said "be ye perfect" he used an adjective (teleios) which means complete. When he died on the cross and said "it is finished" he used the verb form of the same word (teleo). It is only in the finished, perfect works and atonement of Jesus that we are perfect. Also, the same word is used in the verse Max quoted from Hebrews earlier: "By one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." | ||
| Billthompson |
Max and Darrell, Amen! On another thread titled "The Sermon on the Mount" I mentioned a book which addresses many of these teachings of Jesus which legalists misinterpret as being support for their "works salvation". I'll repeat the book information here: The book is "The Gospel Solution" by Tom Weaver. Publisher "True Light Press" Bremerton, Washington. (360)830-2734, (800)479-3208 or fax (360)830-2436. Copyrighted 1999. 291 pages, paperback, sells for $18.00. Chapter 7 is dedicated to the Sermon on the Mount. Here are a few snips from this chapter: "If this is what it takes to be a Christian, then I guess I can never be one...How on earth can I ever measure up to this?" Then he quotes another of my favorite authors, Philip Yancey. Yancey said, "The Sermon on the Mount haunted my adolescence..." . The auothor, Tom Weaver goes on to say this, "The main reason Jesus uttered the Sermon on the Mount was to bring people like Tom Weaver to that place where he would admit he was entirely unworthy of being in the presence of a holy God...Why? Because I am hopelessly unable to do any of those things to ever win my salvation...Unfortunately many have tried to sum up Jesus' teaching as the standard for what Christianity is, not realizing it is a standard that only God can Keep." Jesus was preparing the people's heart. He wanted them to see their need for a Saviour. That should be our reaction to those teachings even today. A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Max |
Bill, Your quote from Tom Weaver -- "Unfortunately many have tried to sum up Jesus' teaching as the standard for what Christianity is, not realizing it is a standard that only God can keep" -- made me wonder if some of my posts have misled some people into thinking if that's what I believe. Dear reader, if you have been thinking that, please know that I have never meant to say that the Commandments of Christ on the Mount and elsewhere is just merely a replacement for the 613 OT laws. For the record, I do NOT believe that! Please don't be misled by the fact that my witnessing discourse and is imperfect. I DO believe that the Commandments of Christ "raised the bar" on the Commandments of Moses, etc. But the function of the "higher bar" NT Commandments is the same as the function of the "lower bar" OT Commandments: to keep us from sauntering away from the foot of the eternal cross. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Ken, another short quote from Scripture: "Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses." Among other things, this means that that Commandments of Moses are "less honorable" than the Commandments of Jesus. The Commandments of the "less honorable" Moses include Sabbath-keeping, whereas the Commandments of the "more honorable" Jesus do not. Query: Why do I have to keep the Fourth of the "less honorable" Ten Commandments of Moses, when the "more honorable" Nine Commandments of Christ leave it out? | ||
| Billthompson |
Max, I have followed your posts with great interest. You make some great points. I have often thought that Jesus statement, "If you love me, keep my commandments" should be read this way. "If you love me, keep MY commandments." As an SDA I know we read those same words, "If you love me, keep my COMMANDMENTS" and then of course we equated that with the 10. If the emphasis is on the word "MY" rather than commandments it is a whole different meaning, right? Context, Jesus was talking to Jews who were zealous for the law, particulalry the 10 C.s and especially the 4th commandment. If He is really saying "...keep MY commandments" He is contrasting and confronting there status quo, trying to open their eyes to the kingdom of God. This is quite different from the SDA idea of emphasizing the word "commandments" and equating it with the 10 C.s. He'd be preaching to the old proverbial chior with a statement supporting the 10 C.s. These were a people who already held these in high regard. No, He was challenging them to look at HIS commands as opposed the the 10 (or 613 for that matter). A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Max |
Absolutely, Bill. And Christ's NT Commandments omit Sabbath-keeping, although Paul permits it, but not as a command, in Romans 14. But sometimes I think I may have given the wrong impression to some on this web site that I believed that keeping Christ's Mt. Blessings commandments were salvific. I've never believed that and never taught it. Christ's commandments were meant to force us to realize that only God the Son could keep them perfectly. That drives us to the foot of the cross, both at the time of conversion and continually throughout the Christian pilgrimage in the kingdom of heaven that is under our feet as well as over our heads (Luke 17:20-21). This is what I mean by "real grace." Max of the Cross | ||
| Billthompson |
Amen, Max, Amen! I think you are right about the confusion. I think that is why Patti and Rayna were fighting for the Gospel so strongly. As I read your thoughts, though, I felt sure it was simple miscommunication. We both know that no one has ever been saved by meritoriously obeying laws in the old or new covenant. "By Faith Abraham..." A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Max |
And, Bill, as you know, all of Christ's commandments are summed up in the one word: Love. "Thou shalt love!" When we understand that this law -- the ultimate law -- is the hardest one of all to keep, then we have nowhere else to go but to the foot of the cross. But until we do realize that, we have lots and lots of other places to go. Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
Bill, Hi...Again, I always appreciate and agree with your thoughts... Thank-you! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Max, Hello again! Thank-you for clarifying your beliefs on the "Commandments" Jesus put forth in the Sermon on the Mount. For you to say that you "may have given the wrong impression" that those commandments were salvific... and not to point us to Christ who ALONE can keep them... shows a humility. I honestly did think you were a strong believer in Grace, from so many of your posts... but I must say that about a week ago I was wondering about you! :-)) Some of the posts seemed a little schizophrenic as far as works and grace. And I would agree with you (in what I think you may say), that by accepting Jesus' FREE GIFT of GRACE, (HIS absolutely perfect Sermon on the Mount commandment-keeping), His Holy Spirit is promised to be with us, giving us a desire to live in the reality of those commandments... I enjoy your posts! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Thanks Cindy, I think maybe your name should be changed to Grace. Think what it meant for Jesus to keep his own commandments: He never looked at a woman with lust. He never grew angry in his heart against anyone who wounded him. He never failed to love the most unlovely. He rejoiced and was "exceeding glad" when people insulted him. He was poor in spirit and was always merciful even to the merciless. He turned the other cheek, went two miles for every one required, on and on all of his earthly life. That's the righteousness / holiness / sinlessness / perfection in which my faith resides. It doesn't require a "booster shot" of any of my own righteousness / holiness / sinlessness / perfection at all ever, for it stands forever as a completed fulfillment of himself who is the only complete and perfect statement of the law ever given! In faith alone, | ||
| Jtree |
NO SABBATH KEEPING ALLOWED Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. " -- Col. 2:16-27 I do not observe the literal sabbath day of the legal dispensation, because Christ is my Sabbath. I rest in Him. The Sabbath is mentioned in the Gospels and Acts. However, it is always mentioned (during that transitional period) in connection with the Jews and Jewish worship in the temple, or in their synagogues. But in the New Testament epistles (Romans through Revelation), the sabbath is mentioned only twice. In Colossians 2:16-17, the Apostle Paul forbids the observance of any legal sabbath day on the basis of the fact that in Christ believers are entirely free from the law (Rom. 6:14, 15; 7:4; 10:4). The word translated "rest" in Hebrews 4:9 might be translated "sabbath" or "keeping of a sabbath." The sabbath rest spoken of in the chapter is the blessed rest of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (vv. 3, 4, 9, 10) and the consummate end of that in eternal glory (v. 11). Those who would impose upon me the legal observance of sabbath days and bring us back in bondage to the law are compelling me to do that which they do not do themselves. Many preach up sabbath keeping as a rule of life and try to impose upon God's saints rules and regulations for sabbath keeping. But it is all a vain and hypocritical show of the flesh (Gal. 6:12-13). Not one of them actually keeps the sabbath day; and they know it. Their pretended reverence for the law of God, when closely examined, reveals a total disregard for God's law. They sift through the commandments, pick out what they like, and ignore the rest. Let me show you what I mean. Here are four things required in the law for the observance of the sabbath day. 1. THE SABBATH DAY HAD TO BE OBSERVED ON SATURDAY, THE SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK (Ex. 20:10). Sunday is not the sabbath! Sunday is the Lord's day (Rev. 1:10), the day of our Lord's resurrection and the commonly acknowledged day of public worship in this gospel age (I Cor. 16:2). But nowhere in the Bible are we commanded, or even permitted, to keep the sabbath day on Sunday. 2. NO WORK COULD BE DONE ON THE SABBATH DAY (Ex. 20:10). Works of necessity and of mercy were allowed. But no one was permitted to do any kind of work for himself. Those who want to keep the sabbath day must, every Saturday (not Sunday), (by the most lenient timetable) refrain from lighting a fire for cooking (Ex. 35:3), gathering wood for burning (Num. 15:32-36), carrying any burden (Jer. 17:21-22), travelling anywhere (Ex. 16:29), or doing any business (Amos 8:5). Anything personally profitable or pleasurable was expressly forbidden on the sabbath day (Isa. 56:2; 58:13; Ezek. 20:12, 21). The essence of sabbath observance was unconditional, all-encompassing self-denial. It was a ceremonial renunciation of self and a ceremonial dedication of one's entire life to God. As such, it was a picture of faith in Christ. 3. IN ADDITION TO THESE THINGS, ANY GENUINE OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH DAY WOULD NECESSITATE A RETURN TO THE CEREMONIAL LAW OF THE OLD TESTAMENT (Num. 28:9-10). The sabbath day cannot be observed without the offering of a double sin-offering, a double meal-offering, and a double drink-offering. And these offerings must be made in the temple at Jerusalem! There is one more point that cannot be ignored. 4. THOSE WHO INSIST UPON KEEPING THE SABBATH MUST ALSO DEMAND THE EXECUTION OF ALL SABBATH BREAKERS (Ex. 31:15). The very same law that required the observance of the sabbath required the death of those who violated the sabbath. If a person wants to live under sabbatical laws, he must be willing to stone to death anyone who breaks the sabbath. Do you know anyone who keeps the sabbath like this? Of course not! Not even the most strict Adventist or Russellite observes such a sabbath. And those who pretend to observe a Sunday sabbath do not even come close to the requirements of God's law regarding sabbath observance. Why do I refuse to observe a sabbath day? What can be wrong with setting aside the first day of the week and requiring God's saints to keep it as a sabbath to the Lord? We do not and must not observe a literal sabbath day for the same reasons that we dare not observe the Jewish passover or any other ceremonies of the law. TO DO SO WOULD BE A SYMBOLIC DENIAL OF THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST AS OUR REDEEMER, A MIXING OF WORKS AND GRACE IN THE AFFAIR OF SALVATION, AND A DECLARATION THAT CHRIST ALONE IS NOT ENOUGH TO SATISFY GOD AND MAKE ALL WHO TRUST HIM FOREVER ACCEPTED WITH GOD. Why do you seek to kill me for telling you the truth? Joshua | ||
| Max |
Joshua, have you ever read Exodus 16:29? "Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbaath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." And if so, what do you make of it? | ||
| Jtree |
Why yes, many gazillian times, haven't you? Back to Exod 16:5, "on the sixth day they are to prepare what they bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days". In other words, to provide for, so after church thy don't have to stop by Micky D's for a burger and a coke. What else? | ||
| Max |
"Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." What does this part mean? | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Joshua, As to the 'stoning of a non sabbath keeper', for the last two days I have been bombarded with what I would term 'stones'. Seems this topic as of late, is becoming increasingly important to those that know me. After not attending Church now for about 5 months, it is registering to some sda members that I have no intent on going back. With this comes a pressure for me to conform to the seventh day sabbath. Tonight just happened to be a study on the 'Law'. It was a showdown I did not expect. I pulled out every Scripture I knew and of course because it is written by Paul, I wasn't heard. It appears as though if it is written by egw, it is truth but the apostle Paul is almost distained. Sad but true, I was there. God Bless, Denise Tonights study was out of the sda quarterly, of course, and most all Scripture this time was from the book of Proverbs. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Max, I used that part of the law tonight in the ongoing battle for the Truth. I pointed out that to leave the home is unlawful, so is turning on your stove or lights. This didn't go over to well to say the least. I was informed that those parts of the Sabbath law are only for the Jews but not Gentiles. I tried using logic and love,,I really did. I believe the Lord did something because Scripture that I referred to was written down by them so that they could study it more indepth. Let's pray! God Bless, Denise | ||
| Max |
Ask them for scriptural support for their belief that "those parts of the Sabbath law are only for the Jews but not Gentiles." |
