| Author | Message | ||
| Ericlandstrom |
Greetings. I'm new to this furum and have come here by way of a friends recomendation. I'm my effort to add to my witness, I'm wondering if any of Ellen White's prophecy ever came true that did not parallel the Protestant Bible. Another words did she make any extra Biblical prophecy that actually came to pass that she couldn't have gotten from Scripture? This same question stumps JW's and LDS folks by the way. I just want to know if the same argument would apply to the SDA church. Also if anybody is interested on infor for witnessing unto "Christian" universalists, I've got a good base have debated them for two months... Lord God Christ Jesus is MY Savior. All glory be His! Eric Landstrom PS: I just figured out that this forum doesn't tak | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Eric! Thanks for stopping by. I think that it is not so much that you have asked a difficult question as it is that you have asked it in a way that is difficult to answer. You wrote: I'm my effort to add to my witness, I'm wondering if any of Ellen White's prophecy ever came true that did not parallel the Protestant Bible. Another words did she make any extra Biblical prophecy that actually came to pass that she couldn't have gotten from Scripture? Patti: Actually, I know of no actual prophecies that she made that came true. Others, feel free to butt in. Right now I cannot think of a single one other than silly little legends of seeing a girl steal a scarf or something in a vision, which was itself disputable. Anyone else know of any? Please hang around here with us, Eric. We'uns is good fokes! Patti | ||
| Patti |
I decided to take advantage of this thread and post a study on Prophecy in the New Testament. You may be surprised at what I found: Prophecy in the New Testament, Part I It seems to me that it all seems to boil down to this single question: Was Ellen White indeed a prophet sent from and divinely inspired by God? To explore this question, it would behoove us to have a common terminology. As I read the posts today, I wondered if we had a common definition of the words "prophecy," "prophet," and "prophesy," so I decided to find out the context and usage of these words in the New Testament. I looked up the definition of "prophecy" in Easton's Bible Dictionary: "The great prediction which runs like a golden thread through the whole contents of the Old Testament is that regarding the coming and work of the Messiah; and the great use of prophecy was to perpetuate faith in his coming, and to prepare the world for that event.... "But the great body of Old Testament prophecy relates directly to the advent of the Messiah, beginning with Gen. 3:15, the first great promise, and extending in ever-increasing fulness and clearness all through to the very close of the canon. The Messianic prophecies are too numerous to be quoted. 'To him gave all the prophets witness.'" Jesus Himself acknowledges this in these verses: Matthew 13:13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 13:14 "And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'You will keep on hearing, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; And YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; This was the first reference that popped up in my search. Jesus is speaking of the prophecy of Isaiah of which He, Jesus, was the fulfillment. Shortly after in the same chapter, there is this use of the word prophet: Matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable, 13:35 so that what was spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world." Again, Jesus is making the claim that He is the fulfillment of the words of the Old Testament prophets. According to the definition and these texts, prophecy in the Old Testament was overwhelming used to fortell the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But what about in the New Testament? I think that SDAs have always had the answer, although they did not recognize it. Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." How many times is this quoted in the SDA church? Unfortunately, it has been skewed to mean something else, something almost blasphemous. But what is the true meaning? The words are right there, right in front of your eyes and need very little spin or interpretation. "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." What is the spirit of prophecy? Testifying of Jesus. I believe that, just as the overwhelming amount of OT prophecy was of Jesus Christ, that the New Testament prophet is one who testifies of Jesus. And who inspires this testimony? The Holy Spirit of course. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me, John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 16:10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 16:14 "He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. 16:15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you. 16:16 "A little while, and you will no longer behold Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me." What is the thrust of the role of the Holy Spirit on this earth? Again, to testify of Jesus. Is it possible that to prophesy, in the New Testament, was (I hate to use the SDA word, "only," or "merely") simply to testify of Jesus? To tell of His great saving act? Let's examine the other passages: Romans 12:4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 12:6 And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 12:7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 12:8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. This passage most assuredly fits the definition. "if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith" Since faith is the tool by which we reach out for the great salvation of Christ in the Gospel, then this definition fits like a glove. How about some more? Acts 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 2:17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all MANKIND; And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams; 2:18 Even upon My bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit And they shall prophesy. So this was a fulfillment of prophecy itself, but please notice just what the "sons and daughters" were prophesying on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 2:23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 2:24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. Acts 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 2:33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 2:34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, 2:35 Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet." ' 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-- this Jesus whom you crucified." Their prophecy was a testimony of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, risen and exalted. | ||
| Patti |
So if we are to take the preceding definition of New Testament prophecy as being accurate, then my most generous answer would be that, if we overlook the error, then, yes, we could call Ellen White a prophet as long as she was testifying of Jesus, and because she sometimes accurately presents the Gospel of salvation by the grace of God alone. I do think that SDAs have a sensationalist approach to many things, and I believe that the homage they give to Ellen White is more sensationalist than biblical. They are so enamored by the supposedly supernatural events of her life and point to these as signs of a prophet, while overlooking the single most important aspect of the gift of prophecy, and that is to testify of Jesus. Of course, this is not very attention-getting. It is not flashy or glamourous, and does not bring in the big bucks. Often people who are hooked on sensationalism become weary with the constant reiteration of the merits of Christ. It makes me wonder what they will do in heaven, because the saints throughout all eternity will sing the song of Lamb. Jesus warned against sensationalism and looking for supernatural signs while He was here on earth: John 4:48 Jesus therefore said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe." I am afraid this is the situation with those SDAs who hang on to the myth of Ellen White. I would be delighted to declare that I believe in Ellen White as a prophet IF I could throw out everything she wrote that was not "Gospel truth." I daresay that would be well over 95% of her voluminous "works." But since the "other stuff" eclipses any mention she might make of our Substitute and Surety, I would have to say that her use as a New Testament prophet is severely curtailed to nonexistent. One last point about prophecy. The SDAs seem to regard prophecy as a static gift--a gift that is given to a single person once a dispensation. This is totaly contrary to the practical usage of the word "prophecy" in the New Testament: Romans 12:6 And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; According to this text, the gift of prophecy, just like the gifts of teaching, diligence, mercy, exhortation and generosity, is a dynamic gift that the Holy Spirit bestows upon many believers at any time in the history of the world. There is no way one could read into this text that there was to be a single last great prophet in the 19th century. Paul reiterates this them in I Corinthians: 1Cor. 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. And then there is this interesting verse: 1Cor. 14:22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers, but to those who believe. In summary, the New Testament usage of the word "prophecy" is not the same as the SDA's. The authors of the NT used the word prophecy as a dynamic gift to the believers in the church to testify of Jesus and to edify the church. The SDAs see the gift of prophecy as mainly a gift of prognistication, fulfilled entirely in Ellen White and all of her millions of written words. Was Ellen White a true prophet of God? My most generous answer would be that she was when she was testifying of Jesus. What she was when she was acting in judgment or promoting error--well, that is for you to prayerfully decide. Are SDAs WRONG in saying that Ellen was a prophet? I think that it is not so much that they are wrong in saying that she prophesied (if one chooses to ignore the error, of course); rather, they are wrong in denying that role to anyone else in history since John. And they are wrong in promoting that they are THE true church because of Ellen. God's true remnant will have the ongoing gift of prophecy, not merely a dead prophet. | ||
| Susan |
Wonderful study Patti! I received a ton of instruction on the "doctrines" of Ellen as an SDA. But somehow I didn't get the message of Jesus from any of it. It was only after I got out and started studying the bible that the impact of Jesus hit me. It was like a new discovery! (I'm still on a daily journey of discovery) You're so right about a prophet needing to "testify of Jesus". Would you also say that it must be the real Jesus that's testified? Praising God for Jesus! Susan | ||
| Joni |
Patti, I agree. That was very good. Thank you!! Joni | ||
| Patti |
Susan, Of course, it is the "real" Jesus. The complete atonement and full salvation for our sins. Did you ever notice as an SDA how reticent people were to talk directly about Jesus? Just about the only time I heard His name was in the phrase "be ready when Jesus comes." I still find many SDAs to be very reluctant to talk about the historic crucified and risen Savior. Joni, Thank you. You have also been an inspiration to me. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Susan |
Patti, I agree with you a 100%! I just wanted to throw out that question for clarity. See, we've already established how some, if not all SDA's, have another Jesus. Like with all the cults, you can talk the same language, but have entirely different concepts in your heads. That's why it can be very frustrating trying to witness to them. Anyway, thanks again for your posts! In Christ, Susan | ||
| Lori |
Have there been any true prophets since the canon of scripture was closed? | ||
| Max |
Absolutely! NIV Acts 2:14-18: 14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 "`In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. To say otherwise is to say that "the last days" have passed, that we are no longer living in "the last days," and that the Scripture just quoted would be false. But "Scripture cannot be broken." There are no SCRIPTURAL prophets after the close of the canon, however. For to say that would be to put one's self under the curse of Revelation 22:18-19: "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prohecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book" (NIV). Ellen G. White (as well as Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, and others) was a false prophet not because she lived after the close of the canon, but because she violated Scripture and in so doing placed herself under this curse. Throughout Scripture -- both Testaments -- there are prophets mentioned who never "made it" into the canon, and many others who are mentioned but whose prophecies never even made it into Scripture. In other words, we don't know what their prophecies were, but they are still mentioned and called "prophets." If you want examples, I will be happy to provide them. | ||
| Max |
Only a few very special prophets throughout the ages have been elected by God to be a part of Scripture. Two criteria: 1. Those living and testifying before the first Christmas were chosen because they prophesied the coming of the Messiah (Immanuel). 2. Those living and testifying after the first Christmas were chosen because they witnessed Christ come in human flesh (Immanuel). One example (NIV 1 John 1:1-4): "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have SEEN with our eyes, which we have LOOKED at and our hands have TOUCHED -- this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have SEEN it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has APPEARED to us. We proclaim to you what we have SEEN and HEARD, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. WE write this to make our joy complete." Ellen G. White did not see, touch or hear him in the flesh. (Jesus DID appear to Paul in the flesh, by the way.) Therefore she had no right to add or take away from that which John, Paul, Peter and the others testified, which prophecies are preserved in the canon by the grace of God alone. | ||
| Max |
John the Baptist was perhaps the most "special" prophet of all, for he was the transition prophet between the Old Covenant (Old Testament) and the New Covenant (New testament). Notice what Matthew says about John: NIV Matthew 3:1-3 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: ннннннн "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ннннннн "Prepare the way of the LORD; ннннннн Make His paths straight."' In the early days of the Voice of Prophecy, H.M.S. Richards, Sr., prefaced his sermon with this quote referring to himself: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ннннннн "Prepare the way of the LORD; ннннннн Make His paths straight."' But he ignored the context. For Richards was talking about the Second Coming, whereas in the passage quoted by Richards, Matthew and John the Baptist were talking about the First Coming. The NIV text note for Matthew 3:2 says this: The "kingdom of heaven." "A prhase found only in Matthew, where it occurs 33 times.... Mark and Luke refer to "the kingdom of God," a term Matthew uses only four times.... The kingdom of heaven is the rule of God and is BOTH A PRESENT REALITY AND A FUTURE HOPE. The idea of God's kingdom is central to Jesus' teaching and is mentioned 50 times in Matthew alone." "The kingdom of heaven is under our feet as well as over our heads." "The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof." The kingdom of God = the kingdom of heaven. There is only one kingdom of heaven/God, not two. Therefore, Be of good cheer, for Christ has overcome the world. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Examples of New Testament true prophets whose prophecies never appear in Scripture: NIV Acts 13:1 In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off. | ||
| Max |
Examples of Old Testament true prophets whose prophecies never appear in Scripture: NIV 1 Kings 18:4 While Jezebel was killing off the LORD's prophets, Obadiah had taken a hundred prophets and hidden them in two caves, fifty in each, and had supplied them with food and water. | ||
| Max |
Which raises questions: 1. Isn't anyone who speaks truly for the Lord a true prophet? 2. Cannot one say "prophet-hood of all believers" as well as "priesthood of all believers"? Food for thought. Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
Interesting study on Prophets! Thanks, Max... I think we "prophesy" whenever we testify of Jesus! The testimony of JESUS is the spirit behind all prophecy... Jesus being the real focus and goal of all prophecy!! So, in this way, along with being a Priesthood of all believers, there is a Prophethood of all believers! Although... JESUS ALONE is the true PROPHET, PRIEST, and KING!! He alone spoke and lived all that was true of God! He alone is our true Priest and Mediator! And He alone is our righteous KING, who rules lovingly and justly over everything! Praise HIM!! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Lori |
To All: Are the "church age" and the "age of Israel" dealt with separately by God? What of this text? "In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, BUT in the last days he has communicated to us by his Son whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom he designed the ages." (hebrews 1:1,2) Doesn't this text point out a contrast...He did this, but now he does this? The Old Covenant dealt with Israel and the New Covenant deals with the church age believers, are not other things different in God's dealing with these two groups? You say Scripture can not be broken, but isn't some scripture specifically for different ages of believers. Isn't the book of Joel prophetic for the age of Israel? The text just prior to the one you quoted (Joel 2:28) says (vs.27)"then you will know that I am in Israel that I am the Lord your God and that there is no other: never again will my people be shamed." vs. 28 begins with "And afterward" Doesn't this say that AFTER God is in Israel and WHEN they never again will be shamed, THEN he will pour out prophecy, dreams, visions....? Just asking...... | ||
| Lori |
To All: Are the "church age" and the "age of Israel" dealt with separately by God? What of this text? "In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, BUT in the last days he has communicated to us by his Son whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom he designed the ages." (hebrews 1:1,2) Doesn't this text point out a contrast...He did this, but now he does this? The Old Covenant dealt with Israel and the New Covenant deals with the church age believers, are not other things different in God's dealing with these two groups? You say Scripture can not be broken, but isn't some scripture specifically for different ages of believers. Isn't the book of Joel prophetic for the age of Israel? The text just prior to the one you quoted (Joel 2:28) says (vs.27)"then you will know that I am in Israel that I am the Lord your God and that there is no other: never again will my people be shamed." vs. 28 begins with "And afterward" Doesn't this say that AFTER God is in Israel and WHEN they never again will be shamed, THEN he will pour out prophecy, dreams, visions....? Just asking...... | ||
| Bruceh |
Max, I can think of another prophet besides John the Baptist ACTS 21:10 10 And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 When he had come to us, he took Paul's belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit, `So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'" ACTS 11:28 28 Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. 1 COR 12:28,29 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? MAX I believe that there can be prophets for today the Bible says that we are to test them. The problem with Ellen White is she contradicts the word of God or the Bible. God has given those who are saved the Holy Spirit and this Spirit of Truth will lead you into all truth. What does the Spirit of God say to you about Ellen White. Do you trust the Spirit. Lori you make some good points. I agree with you. Bruce Heinrich | ||
| Max |
Thanks, Bruce. I agree completely. |
