| Author | Message | ||
| Cindy |
RichardTinker, Thank-you for your thoughts above... Yes! Let's leave the Holy Spirit's work in HIS hands... and in HIS timing...pointing always to our all-sufficient Savior. "Let us fix our eyes on JESUS, the Author and Perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God!" (Hebrews 12) Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
THE FOOL It's not that I don't agree with you. You have more than convinced me. And it wasnít so much your compelling logic as it was you yourself. You -- with your terribly simple integrity -- have set forth truth that I would hardly dare think, never speak. What shocks me is your fearless presentation of reality, your utter honesty. But what good is that to you? Who am I to you that you should shock and convince me? I havenít the courage to be your ally. Whether you are right or wrong is no longer the point. This is something you do not seem to understand. The point is that you have become so immersed in your personal struggle, so engrossed in your intense search for truth, that you have forgotten to fear the dragon which at this moment breaths its fire down your neck. Are you oblivious to this monster? Donít you realize that your courage and your independent judgment have singled you out from the mass? Donít you know you canít hope for a fair hearing before you are stamped out? Amid the anesthetic soothings of ěpeace, peaceî you insist that ěthere is no peace.î While men sing the praises of the exterior white paint, you expose rotting timbers and cry for new, stronger girders; thus your enemies accuse you of disrespecting the white paint. While men extoll the colors and fragrance of the flowers which camouflage the foundation, you push aside the flowers and reveal cracks; thus your enemies charge you with despising our flowers. In short, your loyalty is of a higher order. Before you are loyal to the house, you are loyal to the master of the house. Your loyalty to men is superseded by your loyalty to God. Your enemies know this, but they will not admit it. They plug their ears when they hear it. Just who do you think you are? Jeremiah or God Himself? Only a prophet or a fool would dare cry out against indulgence, when Godís very representative on earth -- a man who cannot err nor go astray -- has granted it? Who are you to question whether a sinner can buy his way out of hell by tossing golden coins into an iron chest? Who are you to insist that only Christ can clean a dirty man when the priests are doing it every day? By whose authority do you say the skull of a martyr cannot purchase its owner eternal bliss? You may be right. In fact, you have convinced my own mental faculties. I cannot argue with you. Yet I cannot accept what you say. How can you, one man -- with nothing more than the ability to think and act independently from other men -- set yourself against the eternal church of God, outside of which no man can escape eternal damnation? You are willing even to cut across holy tradition, even to deprive the pope of his rocklike, God-given authority over life and death, over heaven and hell. And all for the sake of your own principle -- ěthe upright man shall live by his faith in God.î I can hear the pope now. ěBohemian poison! Hussite heresy! He will cast numberless souls into flames of endless hell! Almighty God orders that he retract or be burned alive!î You may be right as far as you know. But how do you know you know enough? What if you are wrong? What if you neglect the one small detail that could ruin you? What then? You say you will leave the results in he hands of Almighty God. I can only add, may God have mercy on your soul. No, you are neither God nor Jeremiah. I know who you are. I have known you from those grueling days and nights when you searched the inner recesses of your soul in the chill sweating floors of the Black Monastery. I have heard your cry -- ěO wretched man that I am!î -- from your cell in the night when the other monks were laughing. I have seen your tears -- the tears of a burly peasant boy from a dirty mining town seeking only salvation for his tortured soul. I know who you are. You are only one man, so honest and so true to the God you know so well that you will never retract, never go back on Him. I know who are. You are Martin Luther, son of Hans Luther, from Mansfield, a priest of the holy Roman Catholic Church about not nail ninety-fife propositions for debate to the door of Castle Church here in Wittenberg. Yea, Fool indeed, may God have mercy on your angry soul. Max Gordon Phillips INSCRIPTIONS Copyright 1970 Pacific Press Publishing Association Mountain View, California | ||
| Cindy |
Max, very, very interesting...I read it twice and will sleep on it tonight. You wrote that 30 years ago?!! I've always loved the following quote from Martin Luther! I think it applies to us here as we have studied ourselves away from various "doctrines" said to be vital to our salvation... "Unless I am convinced by sacred Scripture or by evident reason--I can not recant. For my conscience is held captive by the Word of God--and to act against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me." Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Lori |
Max, I believe that the righteousness of Christ and the sinlessness of Christ are SEPARATED FROM US. They are inseparable in the hypostatic union. We are told that we are partakers of the righteousness of Christ, it is one thing to partake in something and another to own it. It's like......a lifetime membership to an exclusive country club (and being the person who can't afford one). Let's say it's financially and socially impossible for me to join the local country club, however, I have a friend who owns the club. If I walk up to the front desk, alone and on the basis of who I am and try to enter, I would be refused. But, if my friend, who owns the club extends the invitation for me to be his guest, without any questions asked, I could walk right in with him. I would be able to partake in the benefits of his club strictly by association with him. --If I tried to go back the next day, without my friend and again try to enter on the basis of "well,my friend brought me yesterday", I would be turned away. We are righteous by association, but we are not sinless by association. You wrote this: "this grace is real/pure and not entangled with my own sinfulness/imperfection" I say, "Exactly" Christ is righteous, Christ is sinless. I'm NOT righteous and I'm NOT sinless. However, the robe of Christ's righteousness covers my unrighteousness and my sinfulness so that when "I do sin, I have one who speaks to the Father in my defense--Jesus Christ, THE righteous one". (If after we are saved, we are sinless, why would Christ speak to the Father on our behalf when we do sin?) It wouldn't be necessary. Christ's righteousness, is just that, it's Christ's. I just partake of it. It doesn't become mine. It's His, I only enjoy the benefits of His accomplishment. Being covered with his righteousness means that I'm still wearing the filthy body of sin underneath it, but nobody can see it because I'm covered with his robe. Because I'm wearing the robe doesn't mean I'm not going to act like I'm not. I'm still going to sin, I'm still going to act just like what's under the robe, sometimes--maybe even most of the time. When I accepted Christ I received many things....some times I use them and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I act like Him and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I want to act like Him and I just can't seem to do it. And sometimes I don't want to act like Him and so I deliberately sin. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul wrote about precisely this struggle, obviously he was very familiar with it. And obviously he knew he was still sinful, even though, he was saved and covered with Christ's righteousness. David was a man after God's own heart, but David did some sinning, David acknowledged "I have sinned!" Maybe these people weren't saved---that's what some denominations would say, if they were people in our day doing these things---but they would be disagreeing with scripture, wouldn't they? You are deceiving yourself when you conclude that you are sinless 1 John 1:12 I've answered your last question directed to me--and will abide by Colleen's request to refrain from further comments on the discussion. | ||
| Lori |
Patti,Maryann,Sherry, and anyone else that I have corresponded with over email: We recently got a new server and I have a new email address, (the old on is belair). Drop me a note at my "email P.O Box"-- LoriCD@excite.com (I check it ocassionally) and I will send you my "real" address. I "lost" all of your email addresses when we changed computers. Thanks Lori | ||
| Max |
Hi Lori, I appreciated your illustration and agree completely with it. As far as this discussion is concerned, I don't believe Colleen requested that we refrain from further comments on it, righteousness by faith, but rather on the subject of whether or not the Protestant churches have abandoned the Reformation's version of righteousness by faith and accepted the Counter-Reformation's version of it. If you don't choose to answer my question, that's all right. I never demand that anyone answer my questions. (I kidded around good naturedly with Ken, because I see him as a buddy who can "take it" as well as "dish it out," but I never demanded that he answer.) I don't believe you answered my questions at all. And that's your right. So I'll ask a different question, which you don't have to answer either if you don't want to. You wrote, ^^I believe that the righteousness of Christ and the sinlessness of Christ are separated from US.^^ My question: Do you believe that the righteousness of Christ and the sinlessness of Christ are separated from EACH OTHER? In Christ's love for you, | ||
| Lori |
Max, Jesus was sinless, yes, but it was an act of his own volition, we don't receive the volition of Christ. I answered your question: I wrote, "In the hypostatic union they are inseparable" In my Spirit, in that part only, I am righteous, but that has nothing to do with the other 2/3rds of what I'm made of--and I am not sinless and neither are you. | ||
| Max |
Good morning Lori! I'm not sure how you're using the term "hypostatic." In my Webster's 10th "hypostasis" is: A. "one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians." B. "the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures." C. a synonym for "person." Could you explain a bit more? God love you, | ||
| Max |
Lori, You're not sinless [perfect] forever by faith alone in the objective, historical, once-for-all, totally "outside of us" sacrifice of Christ? | ||
| Billthompson |
Unless I am missing somethig, this is another situation on this forum where two people (Max and Lori) believe the same thing but are miscommunicating somehow. While we never reach a state of sinless perfection in and of ourselves here on this earth, we are "counted", "considered", "judged" as being sinless because of Christ alone. The sinlessnesss is not something we have accomplished in the flesh. Agree? A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Max |
Yes, Bill. You always seem to be the first to "see." | ||
| Lori |
Yes, Bill, I think you are correct...I agree with your statement----Maybe I'm just stubborn, but being "counted" as sinless and "being" sinless are still different----this side of eternity. Max, answer to the multiple choice: B: the unification of the divine and human nature of Christ | ||
| Max |
Yes, Lori, Being counted as sinless and being sinless are definitely different, just as being counted as righteous and being righteous are definitely different. The believer cannot separate "the righteousness of Christ by faith alone" from "the sinlessness of Christ by faith alone." As to your multiple choice question, could you clarify? It I can't decypher it as it stands. In God's love for you, | ||
| Max |
And Lori, You are not saying that we believers stand "this side" of eternity, are you? Didn't we accept eternity when we accepted Jesus? And didn't he give us eternity when he said, "I give you eternal life." He didn't say, I WILL give you eternal life after you die or after my Second Coming. He said, I give you eternal life now. It's something that all saved people are in now! Is that not so? | ||
| Lori |
I'm not going to agree with you that we are sinless....that is just not Biblical. On "this earthly side of eternity", we are not totally without sin, "the Bible tells us so". And you are not going to be able to badger me into your viewpoint. :) The fact that our spiritual life, in Christ, imputes his righteousness to us, when we believe, still does not change the fact that the other 2/3rds of my make up are sinful. I still have the sin nature, I still allow it to control instead of the Holy Spirit, I am still sinful on this earth. Only after I have received my resurrection body will I be without sin, at that time I will no longer have the sin nature that was passed down from Adam. I will for the first time live in my "perfected" state, just as Adam and Eve did in the Garden. Just because the price for sin has been paid, doesn't mean that I am without sin. Concerning the term, hypostatic union: (hypostatic was in my dictionary(?) The presence of two natures (undiminished deity and true humanity) in the person of Jesus Christ. Both natures are inseparably united without loss or mixture of separate identity, without loss or transfer of properties or attributes, the union being personal and eternal. This definition can not be used to prove that the sinlessness of Christ is transferred to me. The sinlessness of Christ was based upon his personal volition and my ability to make the choices in the same manner that Christ would have is totally dependent on me staying controlled by the Holy Spirit. Since this control factor is constantly in a battle with the sin nature that I possess, the sin nature "wins" and at those times I live "in sin". I will agree that as long as I am controlled by the Holy Spirit-at those times in my life and at those times only-I am sinless! Enough said, it's time for us to agree to disagree. | ||
| Max |
Dear Lori, I'm not going to agree with you that we are righteous....that is just not Biblical. On "this earthly side of eternity", we are not totally without unrighteousness, "the Bible tells us so". The fact that our spiritual life, in Christ, imputes his sinlessness to us, when we believe, still does not change the fact that the other 2/3rds of my make up are unrighteous. I still have the unrighteous nature, I still allow it to control instead of the Holy Spirit, I am still unrighteous on this earth. Only after I have received my resurrection body will I be without unrighteousness, at that time I will no longer have the unrighteous nature that was passed down from Adam. I will for the first time live in my "righteous" state, just as Adam and Eve did in the Garden. Just because the price for unrighteousness has been paid, doesn't mean that I am without unrighteousness. Hypostasis can not be used to prove that the righteousness of Christ is transferred to me. The righteousness of Christ was based upon his personal volition and my ability to make the choices in the same manner that Christ would have is totally dependent on me staying controlled by the Holy Spirit. Since this control factor is constantly in a battle with the unrighteous nature that I possess, the unrighteous nature "wins" and at those times I live "in unrighteousness". I will agree that as long as I am controlled by the Holy Spirit-at those times in my life and at those times only-I am righteous! If I am not going to be able to badger you into my viewpoint, do I at lest have a chance to raccoon or opossum you into it? ;-) | ||
| Max |
Dear Lori, God sent me a dream last night. In it I was a part of a democratic revolutionary army that had just regained control of a region in a nation that was ruled by a HItler-like dictator who still controlled most region of the nation, which I will call Nowharnia. We were encamped in a place that contained ancient ruins, such as Roman Emperor Hadrian's stone wall that still runs between Scotland and England. My CO (commanding officer) had placed me on guard duty near the ruined wall. I carried a loaded rifle, and I was so scared that I kept my finger on the trigger as the newly liberated civilians in the region that we controlled went about the business of trying to put their lives back together under our aegis. One day a young man in Nowharniaís uniform approached the wall. He appeared to be unarmed, though I felt he could still be hiding a small sidearm in his boot or elsewhere on his person. He tried to pass. I stepped in front of him and blocked his way with my rifle. ěState your business,î I said. He refused to answer. ěThen come with me,î I said, ěand Iíll take you to my CO, and you can tell him your business.î He followed me while I walked up the side of a hill to where my CO was busy directing troops who were setting up headquarters. The CO told me he didnít have time to talk to the man and told me to deal with him according to standard military regulations. I could have him incarcerated as a prisoner of war. Or I could expel him from the camp. Since he still refused to state his business to me, and since we had not yet set up a guardhouse, I decided to expel him from the camp. So I forced him at gunpoint to return to the ruined wall which formed the perimeter of our encampment. Little children were permitted to pass freely across the wall, but not adults in enemy uniforms who refused to state their business. I canít recall what happened at the very end of the dream, but when I awoke I had the strong impression that I needed to apologize to you for posting the parody just above. It was not a Christ-like thing to do, and Iím sorry. In Christís name, Max | ||
| Lori |
Max, No apology needed. I found it quite comical, however, if it was written as ridicule, (there is still no apology needed) that is between God and you. Believe me "I am not without "sin/unrighteousness" ,either, so I will not cast "any" stones"!!! (I just HAD to write that!) :) And to answer your question: No raccoons, oppossums or "parrots", either. | ||
| Max |
Hi Lori, Now I need to post what I should have posted. I believe that: 1. Christ's righteousness = his sinlessness. Therefore I can have the assurance of my salvation in this life. 2. My unrighteousness = my sinfulness. Therefore I can have the assurance of my salvation in this life. 3. When his sinlessness covers my sinfulness I am sinless by faith alone in him. Therefore I can have the assurance of my salvation in this life. 4. When his righteousness covers my unrighteousness I am righteous by faith alone in him. Therefore I can have the assurance of my salvation in this life. 5. At no time between now and the Second Coming or my death am I ever righteous or sinless in an of myself. Therefore I can have the assurance of my salvation in this life. 6. Even after my resurrection or translation/rapture, throughout all eternity ahead, I will STILL be unrighteous and sinfull in and of myself. There will NEVER be a time when I will be righteous and sinless apart from Christ. Therefore I can have the assurance of my salvation in this life. 7. Even after my resurrection or translation/rapture, throughout all eternity ahead, Christ will STILL be 100% my righteousness and 100% my sinlessness. There will NEVER be a time when he will not be. Therefore I can have the assurance of my salvation in this life. 8. You are free to disagree with that and believe something different for yourself and I will still accept you as a child of God and a citizen of the kingdom of heaven which is under our feet as well as over our heads (Hebrews 12:22, Luke 17:20-21, Matthew 13:1-52). Under real grace alone, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Lori, a query: Do you agree with the following Scripture? "By one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." NIV Hebrews 10:14. |
