| Author | Message | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Ken, Hi! Glad you are conversing with us! You seem to have a kind spirit even though I think I disagree with your "gospel".... Never-the-less we need each other and to God we are ALL precious! Anyway, could you explain further what you mean by: "Accepting Christ's sacrifice is only the first step in God's plan for bringing humans into His divine Family". What is the next step? Using some of your words, I would maintain that "Accepting Christ's sacrifice" means accepting His PERFECT LIFE and DEATH and RESURRECTION in my place....,FOR ME! And there is a Finality! and Completeness! in the message of the Cross!... Here, at the Cross, in Jesus's WORK! we can finally REST...This Gospel good news! IS God's perfect "plan for bringing humans into His divine Family"!! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Good buddy Ken, Ken: ^^MOST of modern Christianity teaches that there is nothing more for us to do but believe in Christ's sacrifice for our sins.^^ Can't speak for most of Christianity, but my beliefs spring from Scripture alone. And Christ said, Since you, Max, love me, keep MY (Christ's) commandments, not the Ten Commandments! Ken: ^^No wonder He is portrayed as a dead Savior hanging on a cross! Christ's death, pictured by the Passover, was necessary to pay the penalty of our past sins--to reconcile us to the Father.^^ Past only? Scripture alone: "[Christ] has appeared ONCE FOR ALL [time and people] at the end of the ages [AD 31, not AD 1844] to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself." It was necessary to pay the penalty of our PRESENT AND FUTURE sins to reconcile us to the Father and to Himself, for he is one with the Father and even bears the Father's name (Isaiah 9:6). Ken: ^^But His death alone will not save us! Think, for a moment, if Jesus Christ had died but not been resurrected. Would His death alone make eternal life possible?^^ You speak of an impossible hypothetical case: For Scripture says (NIV John10:17-18): "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." Ken: ^^Accepting Christ's sacrifice is only the first step in God's plan for bringing humans into His divine Family.^^ This assertion would be scriptural if the wording were changed only very slightly to read.... Accepting Christ's sacrifice is the ONLY step in God's plan for bringing humans into His divine family, "because by one sacrifice he has MADE PERFECT FOREVER those [you and me, Ken] who are being made holy." Hebrews 10:14. Accept it, Ken, it's Scripture. And an abundance of blessings be upon you! Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
Max....that was great! (Changing the place of the word ONLY and eliminating the wording and mindset of a "first" step... which implies going on to greater, more complete "steps" into God's family). CHRIST HAS ACCOMPLISHED ALL THAT WE NEED IN RECONCILING US TO GOD! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Ken |
More fun for Max: >>There are two dangers on opposite ends of the spiritual spectrum that Christians have had to try and avoid from the first century until now. Those two dangers or pitfalls are sometimes referred to as legalism and antinomianism (a large word I will explain momentarily). Legalism is also known as works righteousness, rule keeping or brownie point religion, working your way to heaven, trying to earn Godís favor through good works or service. .... The other danger or unhealthy extreme is antinomianism. This is from the Greek words anti, meaning against, and nomos, meaning law; that is against law, or lawlessness. This is sometimes referred to as cheap or greasy grace. I call it worldly or carnal Christianity, and it really does not deserve to be called Christianity at all. Those on this end of the spectrum seem little concerned with holiness, Godís or their own, because after all, ìwe are not under law anymore but under graceî, and ìonce saved always saved.î (Not all who use these phrases or slogans fall into this error but they are sometimes used in that fashion.) found at http://www.rolchurch.com/newsermons/2000/c olossians/cl11religionrelationship.html Following in Jesus's footsteps Ken | ||
| Max |
Ken, I couldn't agree more! Now read this: Dear Adventist Friend Ken: THE POPE DIDNíT CHANGE THE LAW! JESUS DID! God gave me this insight through Colleen. At the FAF dinner at Cocoís in Redlands after the FAF meeting ********************************* FORMER ADVENTIST FELLOWSHIP 6:45 PM Friday Evenings Fellowship Hall Trinity Evangelical Free Church Reservoir Road Redlands, California Intersection of I-10, Ford Exit EVERYBODY WELCOME! ********************************* we were discussing whether or not the Old Testament law was ìstrongî or ìfeeble.î The person sitting on my right, was questioning my assertion that the law was feeble. ìWhat do you mean by feeble?î he asked. ìIt canít save,î I said. He asked me to explain. And I got into the idea that the New Covenant commandments of Jesus Christ were an IMPROVEMENT on the Ten Commandments of Moses. For example, Christís command of do not hate your brother was an IMPROVEMENT on the Sixth Commandment, ìThou shalt not kill,î meaning murder. He then challenged me on the idea that the law could be changed. I was trying to show how, when Colleen interjected Hebrews 7:12: ìWhen there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.î In context the Law of Moses was changed to accommodate the priesthood of Jesus, who was not of the Levites, by the Law of Moses the only tribe from which priests could come. But, says Hebrews, the law was changed to accommodate the priesthood of Christ, since Christ was ìa priest forever in the order of [non-Levite] Melchizedek.î Hebrews 7:17 quoting Psalm 110 4. Thus Hebrews 7 establishes establishes the principle that the law CAN and HAS been changed! Christís Sermon on Mt. Blessings is basically an IMPROVEMENT on the Ten Commandments. They are improved in two ways: 1. Laws, such as that against murder, were changed and improved by making them mental processes in addition to physical actions. Thus ìmalice aforethoughtî is a breaking of a Commandment of Christ, whereas it is not a breaking of the Sixth Commandment. 2. Christís Commandments omit the onerous and burdensome aspects of the Law of Moses: circumcising, Sabbath-keeping, tithe-paying, people-shunning (ìremnantizing,î ìmark-of-the-beasting,î ìpeculiar-peoplingî), and so on. Therefore it was not the Pope -- as both Adventists and Catholics assert -- who changed the law. JESUS CHANGED IT! Praising God, Max of the Cross | ||
| Bruceh |
Max you are right Matt 5:21-22 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: So Ye have heard from old time = Old Covenant. (THIS IS OLD COVENANT COMMANDMENT #6 IN DECOLOGUE AND # 34 IN BOOK OF LAW) 22 BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. So Jesus is saying that the Old Covenant Ten Commandments is not good enough that the standards are even higher so He compares the old commandment Ten Commandments and gives HIS New Covenant Commandment. Notice that He is comparing it to the Big Ten which are part of all 613 commandments you will see as we go along. Matt 5:27-28 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: So Ye have heard from old time = Old Covenant. ( THIS IS THE OLD COVENANT COMMANDMENT IN THE DECOLOGUE #7 AND # 35 IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW). 28 BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. So Jesus on the Mountain gives a New Covenant Commandment, and raises the standard even higher for it is a better Covenant with better promises. (Heb 8:6). Notice that Again Jesus sets aside the Ten Commandments and replaces it with a better Commandment. Matt 5:31-32 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: It has been said = Old Covenant. 32 BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Jesus know goes after the Book of the Law to commandment # 579 Deut 24:1. Again He raises the standard in fact as you will see He raises them all the way. So Jesus replaces the Book of the Law with his New covenant commandment. Matt 5: 33-37 33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. Jesus again goes to the Book of the Law or Law of Moses and picks commandment # 226, and #227 Lev 19:12. Know this one he does not raise the standard but says don't make an oath at all. Could it be because He knows that we cannot keep them (I thought you had to become perfect). MATT 5:38-41 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Here Jesus states the Old Covenant Commandment which is Commandment # 524 (Deut 19:18-19) in the book of the Law and changes it also. Matt 5:43-45 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Jesus is referring to the Great Commandment which is Commandment #243 in the book of the Law Lev 19:18, if you do not believe me look at the chain reference in your bible. The context of the verse, 3You shall not take revenge or bear a grudge against your countrymen, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself,2 suggests that love is being commanded only toward one1s countrymen. Leviticus 19:34 (the alien living with you) and Deut 10:19 command Israelites to love the stranger, that is the non-Israelite, as themselves but it is only toward those who live among the Isrealit community. Also Commandment # 561-562-563-564, which is found (Deut 23:3-10) I will state it for you. 1) Against Ammonites and Moabites ever becoming Hebrews. 2) Against concerning oneself with their well-being, The Ammonites and Moabites 3) Against hating Edomites and Egyptians. 4) In addition, there is the positive stipulation that Edomites and Egyptians can be admitted into the Israelite community in the third generation. He is know replacing this one and again raising the standard. Know you cannot hate your enemy or just love your neighbor but you must love all. So do you see the Big difference the Old says Love your neighbor the New say that ye Love one another. The Old say love as yourself the New say as Jesus loved us. Know here is the High Point and the point that most Old Covenant Christians seem to miss. The ultimate New Covenant Commandment. Matt 5:48 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Wow you mean God is not kidding I have to be perfect. YES. You may say well then nobody will make it, and I say on your own right. But with Jesus guess what, Heb 10:14 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. So Jesus has perfected me forever even while he is in the process of sanctifying me, YES. Bruce Heinrich BH Bh BH | ||
| Bruceh |
Max I believe that all truth comes in seed form. A seed does not bear fruit untill it is a tree. You must first water the seed with the word of God and then the seed of truth will bear fruit. Do not get frustrated if you are not seeing fruit just remember that it is seeds that you are sowing and it is God who gives the increase. You are doing a great Job Max keep up the good work. Bruce Heinirch | ||
| Bruceh |
Bill T Blessed are the peace makers. Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| Bruceh |
Ken Do not get to frustrated with us Remember the Great Commandment LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVE YOU. Ken If you knew Max you would find that he is not an antinomiest in fact he has a true Love for the Lord and he Loves to worship him and please him. Ken, Max is not trying to get out from under Gods Law in fact the Max I know upholds Gods Law. Titus 3:9 9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. Now since this is a Law Issue then it must be UNPROFITABLE AND USLESS right. So Let us praise God for His Son Jesus who saves all who believe. Is Jesus your Savior then you must be saved right. Bruce Heinrich | ||
| Max |
Thanks Bruce, I agree that our sovereign God has absolute control of this web site and that he is using people like Ken mightily to stimulate us to study and prayer so that we can present a clear gospel message to the 3,000 to 4,000 different souls surfing by every week. Blessings your powerful contributions, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Oops, Ken, I forgot to include in my last post to you this text Hebrews 7:18. "The former regulation" -- the one prohibiting Jesus from being a priest -- "IS SET ASIDE because because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope [Jesus] is introduced, by which we draw near to God." Please come back soon, Ken. We need you here. You're an invaluable part of our soul-winning team. God bless you wherever you are, Max of the Cross | ||
| Jtree |
Ken, sounds like you want GRACE, but you also want WORKS! Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Is the whole of our salvation accomplished by the finished work of our Holy Substitute? Or, is there something else that Ken can do to make himself more fit, qualified, holy, or otherwise more acceptable in the sight of God? Can Ken establish his righteousness more securely by his supposed performance of the law? Or, is the righteousness of Christ Ken's all and only means of acceptance before a Holy God? The message of free and sovereign grace is an offense to Ken's pride because he refuses to admit that he is totally incapable of doing anything good (Rom. 3:10-12). Ken, refusing to find your satisfaction in the righteousness of Christ, you go about to establish your own righteousness (Rom. 10:3). Though you often succeed in impressing other men, most especially yourself, God is worse than not impressed. He is infinitely offended by your attempt to rob Christ of His glory. God says works and grace are mutually exclusive. Grace by definition means the total absence of works. Once you introduce works into grace you no longer have grace but only works. A little bit of leaven leavens the whole lump. You can not mix works and grace any more than you can mix oil and water. Regardless of how hard you shake the bottle the heavier water gravitates to the bottom and the lighter oil to the top. So it is with works and grace. The living water of God's grace will be completely covered by the oil of man's works, so that if one attempts to find refreshment from that glass they will ingest nothing but sickening oil. Not only will it not satisfy, it will cause them to loose even what they have. | ||
| Jtree |
ALL: Some people would have us believe that if we preach pure grace it will lead people to licentious living. They say if we remove the law as a guide or motivation for Christian living, people will have nothing to keep them holy. They say to tell a person to just follow Christ doesn't provide enough structure and will lead people to careless living. Is that where the gospel of God's free and sovereign grace in Christ Jesus leads? Grace preachers have always been, and always will be, falsely accused of this devilish lie. The apostle Paul spent most of his time defending the gospel of grace against this lawmongers view of serf-righteousness. "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." Rom 6:15 No, grace does not lead to sin, grace leads to Christ. He is able by the law of love and faith to restrain our flesh and make us His workmanship. | ||
| Jtree |
LAW OR GRACE - YOU CANNOT HAVE BOTH! Galatians 5:4 Most religious people attempt to mix man's works of obedience to the law with God's works of grace for sinners, making salvation a mixture of works and grace, It has been this way since the days of Cain and Abel, No one says, "Salvation is by works." But almost everyone believes it. When salvation by God's free grace alone is declared plainly,lost religionists cling to and defend their works, denouncing the one who dares to affirm that salvation is by GRACE ALONE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, IN CHRIST ALONE as a promoter of licentiousness and a vile antinomian, Yet, the truth must be declared in plain, unmistakable terms. GRACE AND WORKS ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. They annihilate one another. If we are saved by our own works in any way, to any degree, in whole or in part, then we are not saved by the grace of God. if we are saved by the grace of God alone, then we are not saved by our own works of obedience to the law of God (Rom. 11:6). The doctrine of Holy Scripture is unmistakable, The whole work of salvation. (election, redemption, regeneration, sanctification, preservation, and glorification), is by the grace of God alone (Rom. 8:28-30; II Tim. 1:9; Eph. 2:8-9}. ALL CHURCHES, RELIGIONS, AND SYSTEMS OF DOCTRINE WHICH TEACH SALVATION BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW ARE HERETICAL. I mean to be understood. I am saying that any teaching that says sinners are,justified, given favor with God,sanctified,preserved, or shall inherit the reward of heavenly glory upon the basis of their own personal obedience to the law of God is legalism, anti-christ, and damning to all who receive it (Gal. 5:1-4). THIS GOSPEL DOCTRINE OF SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE DOES, MOST CERTAINLY, EXTEND EVEN TO THE BELIEVER'S SANCTIFICATION IN CHRIST. To be sanctified is to be set apart by God for holy service, declared to be holy, and actually made holy. If, as all agree, sanctification is that without which no man shall see the Lord,then sanctification can no more be a matter of works than justification. And this is exactly what the Word of God declares. The Bible nowhere presents sanctification as a conditional thing, depending upon the believer's works, It is an unconditional work of grace, performed for us and in us by the triune God (Jude 1, Heb. 1O:10; II Thess. 2:13). "By grace ye are saved!" | ||
| Jtree |
FAITH ALONE TELLS US: We Stand in grace. Grace is not moveable and the righteousness of Jesus Christ doesn't come and go according to the winds of man's obedience. God has placed us upon the Solid Rock, made Himself our refuge, and we shall never be moved. While our standing is permanent, our rejoicing is by faith alone. God given faith is not a philosophical thing that leads men to sin. True faith emboldens the conscience and enables a man to surrender to the will of God. "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the loved of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto usÖ For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life (Rom 5:3-5, 10)." Faith makes us glory in tribulations. The present season may be exceedingly painful, but when faith reveals that God sent the trial in love, we say, "It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes (Ps 119:71)." Faith waits patiently to obtain what God has promised. Self-confidence is purged and true faith remains, giving glory to God by trusting that what He has promised, He is able to perform (Rom 4:16-21). Faith never hopes in her own righteousness, but faith hopes and receives comfort in the Risen Christ- whose death both reconciled us unto God and clearly manifests the permanence of His love for us. | ||
| Darrell |
I have been enjoying catching up on this discussion. Thanks for all of your contributions. Ken, I read the paper you suggested by D. J. Conklin, and I want to make a few comments about it, but I don't have my notes and am short on time. Hopefully I will get back to you sometime this week. | ||
| Bruceh |
Jtree Good Job on Grace. Bruce Heinrich | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken;-)), I still don't know who Jesus is and you are the only person that can tell me who He is as we are marooned on an island together! We may die one this island before we can be resucued! I neeeeeeeeeeed to know! Maryann | ||
| Billthompson |
Ken, If you are satisfied with your efforts to earn salvation by works (or grace plus works) you must be comparing your works to the works of other human beings. Compare your works to God's perfect satndard. I guarantee you will find that you fall far short of the mark when compared to His standard of perfection. Then you will find His all sufficient saving grace to be a beautiful thing rather than a message which repulses you. I am in no way an advocate of reckless, sinful living. My own testimony is one of living a better, less sinful life after coming to understand that my works do not save but rather the Grace of God alone saves me. Having the assurance of my salvation freed me to truly live for Him and take the focus off myself and reach out to lost people with the Good News. When I was a SDA I had no message for the lost, only arguments for other Christians, sabbath, state of the dead, etc. Now I have Good News for lost people and it is centered on Jesus rather than Moses. A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Ken |
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. |
