| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Chyna, Darrell, Ken, Maryann, Bruce, Patti, , ... , and any I may have missed, God bless you all! It's been sheer delight trading Scriptures with you! Max of the Cross | ||
| Chyna |
dear ken, observing the sabbath physically as you are doing is cherishing a sign of the old covenant meeting for the Lord's Day is celebrating the new covenant because Jesus Christ rose on that day :). so you can cling all you want to the old covenant, so long as you don't judge anyone else for not observing the day you esteem over another. ken, i have come to the conclusion "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? . . . One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let everyone be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it in honour of the Lord." (Rom. 14:4-6) Matt 19:16-18 now a man came up to jesus and asked, 'teacher, what good thing must i do to get eternal life?' jesus answered, "why do you ask me about what is good? there is only one who is good. if you want to enter life obey the commandments." "which ones? the man inquired. Jesus replied, "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother and love your neighbor as yourself." (notice no sabbath observance). the Lord's Day is not Sabbath. John mentions the Lord's day in Revelations. it's only mentioned once in the Bible. anyway, it doesn't matter. observing sabbath neither affects your spiritual life or more importantly your SALVATION. although many former adventists will attest to the fact of your view of observing sabbath can act as a great detriment so that you are living under law instead of living under grace. just remember, ken, the law will never save you, it was instituted that transgressions would increase. Chyna p.s. I still can't understand why Adventists don't think that Celebrating Salvation on the Day Jesus Arose from the Dead is not worthy of a tribute of the assembling of Believers. | ||
| Max |
Chyna, it's because of this formula: SW = MB "Sunday Worship" = "Mark of the Beast" | ||
| Cindy |
Hi Chyna, Yes, the "mark of the beast" is focused on Sunday worship... Which of course is the "wrong" day to worship since it was set up by the "666" antichrist papacy system who have "thought to change times and laws"... It is a mystery to most Adventists how one could totally disregard Scripture and worship on any day other than the one they feel was set up at Creation by God Himself!... and then restated in the giving of the Law at Sinai... Are you still in Thailand? I bet you've been having a great time, so many interesting people to meet, and places to go! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Ken, You quoted from 2 John 6: "And this is love, that we walk after his commandments, That, as ye have heard from he beginning, ye should walk in it." The commandments referred to here in 2 John are "his commandments," meaning Christ's commandments, not the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments include required Sabath observance. Christ's Commandments do not. You really must be more careful how you treat Holy Scripture, Ken! Hey, we're still buds, no? Max | ||
| Ken |
Hi Chyna: Sooooo if you must worship on sunday "the Lord's day" why not just once a year like Christmas? Ken | ||
| Ken |
Hi my always mis-informed always mis-interpreted Max: Where/how do you possibly mis-construe this text. It says no where that this is from Christ! It says from the beginning. And what exactly is the beginning? Just as I thought you would say Eden! Are not God and Jesus one? Would they not be of one accord? What of 2 John 4 is this also refering to Christ? How can any logically thinking man (or woman) screw these texts meanings up? Ken | ||
| Max |
Old chum Ken! So glad you asked! For your answer follow the numbers: 1. The "I" in 2 John 5 is the disciple/apostle John. The command is to love one another and is called an OLD one. 2. The "old command" term harks back to 1 John 2:7, "Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you had since the beginning." Here again the "new command" is to love one another. 3. 1 John 2:7, in turn harks, back to John's gospel -- John 13:34-35, Jesus speaking: "A NEW command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." Therefore the command was both old AND new. 4. Furthermore, the author of this command -- to love one another -- in all the writings of John (gospel, letters, apocalyptic) is Jesus Christ. This the point at which your assertion -- "It says no where that this is from Christ!" -- falls apart. For in fact the command DOES come from Christ, whether new (Christ speaking in John's time) or old (Christ [I AM = YHWH] speaking in Eden)! 5. The NIV text note to John 13:34-35 says this about this new-old command: "In a sense it was an OLD [command] (see Lev. 19:18), but for Christ's disciples it was NEW, because it was the mark of their brothrhood, created by Christ's great love for them (cf. Mt. 22:37-39; Mk. 12:30-31; Lk. 10:27). 6. This new-old command is found in neither the Ten Commandments of the Old Covenant nor in the Ark of the Old Covenant, meaning it was not specifically a part of the Old Covenant. But it was definitely a part of the everlasting covenant -- which is none other than Christ himself. 7. It IS found, however, in the New Covenant (New Testament) and as such is one of Christ's commands. 8. Christ's New Testament (New Covenant) commands omitted circumcizing, tithe-paying, Sabbath-keeping, ham-shunning, jewelry-shunning and all of the other SDA "distinctives." Peace to you, old bud, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Ken again, Can't speak for Chyna, but couldn't resist turning your question around: If you must worship on Easter Sunday, then why not fifty-two times a year? Why limit the "Lord's Day" to just once a year? Jesus rose on Sunday, therefore Christians honor the Resurrection on Sunday. Simple, yes, but incredibly profound as well. The Lord's Day is not the Sabbath, and the Sabbath is not the Lord's Day. Furthermore, historically speaking, Easter Sunday evolved from the Jewish Passover Sabbath, an annual Sabbath. And in fact some branches of Christianity (most notably, the Eastern Orthodox) keep Nissan 14 as their Easter, which is the Jewish Passover Sabbath. Sheer delight talking with you, Ken. Max of the Cross | ||
| Billthompson |
Ken, I am still praying that your Bible study will lead you to a personal assurance of salvation. I am not sure how you expect to come in here and teach anyone about something you are not sure you yourself have. I know you decide whether a person claiming to be a Christian is credible based on their view of the sabbath, but I decide if a person is a credible witness based on what they say about Jesus and the free gift of salvation. I can not take Biblical instruction from one who is confused about the Gospel and has no personal assurance of salvation. That is why I am no longer a SDA. I will not support a church that is confused about the most basic of all Christian teaching, the Gospel. You are truly in my thoughts and prayers. A Sinner Saved By Grace, Bill Thompson | ||
| Ken |
Hi Bill: Bill: I can not take Biblical instruction from one who is confused about the Gospel and has no personal assurance of salvation. Ken: Oh but I'm not confused about the Gospel & my salvation! I just haven't cheapened grace as you have! Following in Jesus's footsteps Ken | ||
| Billthompson |
Ken, Keep studying prayerfully and with humility. Let me know when you reach sinless perfection. If you come to the realization that will never happen and cry out for God's mercy and grace, then we will be of the same mindset. As long as you believe you can reach sinless perfection in this life, then you'll never see your need for the Saviour. Don't tell me grace is cheap. True, it did not cost me anything, but look my Saviour, Jesus Christ in the eyes, look at His nail scarred hands and tell Him His Grace is cheap! No Ken, salvation is a free gift to you and I but never think is was cheap. Declaring that salvation is the blood of Christ plus anything else, such our works, sabbath keeping, this is what cheapens the message of grace, since it implies that Jesus death on the cross was somehow not sufficient to cover my sin debt. This is an insult to Christ and what He did for us. A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Max |
Ken, How have you "not cheapened grace"? | ||
| Billthompson |
Max, Ken has cheapened grace. It is not even a subject he wants to discuss. He doesn't discuss it because he is not comfortable with the subject. It detracts from the impact of his 10 Commandment (really just the 4th) studies. When a person makes the 10 C.s (or really the 4th) the very center of their understanding of the Bible, then when messages like the Grace of God come in and don't fit with their central theme they have to disregard that teaching. What a shame when the disregarded message was the one whereby we are saved. A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Max |
Well Bill, Old buddy Ken just said he hadn't cheapened grace, and I just wanted to find out how. You may well be right about him, but I just wanted to hear his own explaination for his own assertion. Ken? Care to speak for yourself? How have you not cheapened grace? | ||
| Billthompson |
Max, Okay, I'll wait patiently for Ken to tell us what he believes about grace. In the past when I have tried to get him to discuss this, he disappears from the forum for awhile, then returns ignoring those questions and forges ahead with a sabbath discussion. | ||
| Max |
Darrell, I've unpacked my copy of Bacchiocchi's dissertation-based book, FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY: Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity. And I thought you would be interested in what he has to say about his differences with the SDA Bible Commentary on the subject of the Sabbath in Colossians 2. Here it is (page 359): **************** The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary interprets the "sabbatone--sabbath days" as a reference to the annual ceremonial sabbaths and not to the weekly Sabbath (Lev. 23-6-8, 15, 16, 21 24 25, 27, 37, 38). It is a fact that both the Sabbath and the Day of Atonement in Hebrew are designated by the compound expression shabbath shabbathon, meaning "a sabbath of solumn rest" (Ex. 31:15; 35:2; Lev. 23:3,32; 16:31). But this phrase is rendered in the Septuagint by the compound Greek expression "sabbata sabbatone," which is different from the simple "sabbatone" found in Colossians 2:16. IT IS THEREFORE LINGUISTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO INTERPRET THE LATTER (sabbatone) AS A REFERENCE TO THE DAY OF ATONEMENT OR TO ANY OTHER CEREMONIAL SABBATHS, SINCE THESE ARE NEVER DESIGNATED SIMPLY AS "SABBATA." The cited [SDA] commentary rests its interpretation, however, not on the grammatical and linguistic use of the word "sabbatone," but rather on a theological interpretation of the Sabbath as related to "shadow" in Colossians 2:17. It is argued that ^^the weekly Sabbath is a memorial of an event at the beginning of earth's history ... hence the "sabbath days" Paul declares to be shadows pointing to Christ cannot refer to the weekly Sabbath ... but must indicate the ceremonial rest days that reach their realization in Christ and His Kingdom. (Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, 1957, VII, pp. 205-206.)^^ To determine the meaning of a word exclusively by theological assumptions [as the SDABC does], rather than by linguistic or contextual evidences, is against the canons of Biblical hermeneutics. Moreover even the theological interpretation which the Adventist commentary gives to the Sabbath is hard to justify, since we have seen that the Sabbath can legitimately be regarded as the "shadow" or fitting symbol of the present and future blessing of salvation. Furthermore we [Bacchiocchi] have noticed that the term "shadow" is used not in a pejorative sense, as a label for worthless observances which have ceased their function, but to qualify their role in relationship to the "body of Christ." Another significant indication pointing against annual ceremonial sabbaths is the fact that these are already included in the world "heortase -- festival" and if "sabbatone" meant the same thing there would be a NEEDLESS REPETITION. These indications compellingly show that the word "sabbatone" as used in Colossians 2:16 CANNOT REFER TO ANY OF THE ANNUAL CEREMONIAL SABBATHS." **************** There's more here, Darrell, of interest to you, but I don't have time right now to type it all in. But Bacchiocchi does go into the the Greek of Luke 24:1 and Acts 17:2. For what it's worth, Darrell, Your friend, Max | ||
| Max |
I know, Bill, I know, bless you. But our sovereign God loves Ken beyond our imaginations and has been complete control of this situation from the beginning in mysterious ways of which we know nothing. | ||
| Ken |
Hi Bill: Reason that you make grace cheap, is because you use it as a one way street. It's ok if you recieve grace from God, but no way do you want to follow his Commandments. You'll follow God's Commandments except when it's not convenient for you! And if ya break a few along the way well whoopsie, no big deal Gods' grace will cover you, again, and again, and again and... Following in Jesus's footsteps Ken Clark | ||
| Ken |
Hi Bill & Max: Here's some more food for thought. MOST of modern Christianity teaches that there is nothing more for us to do but believe in Christ's sacrifice for our sins. No wonder He is portrayed as a dead Savior hanging on a cross! Christ's death, pictured by the Passover, was necessary to pay the penalty of our past sins--to reconcile us to the Father. But His death alone will not save us! Think, for a moment, if Jesus Christ had died but not been resurrected. Would His death alone make eternal life possible? Of course not! Accepting Christ's sacrifice is only the first step in God's plan for bringing humans into His divine Family. Found at http://www.destiny-worldwide.net/rcg/lesson26 .txt Ken |
