| Author | Message | ||
| Rayna |
I am in shock! I just read Patti and Max's post entitled "Are you Protestant or Roman Catholic". I am very much outdated in my post of "Where is Protestantism going today?" Definitely SDA, including Protestants have accepted the teaching of Rome regarding Justification. Now I see where Max has been coming from. Justification now includes Faith and works by love according to what I read. Not only that but that we are not just declared righteous before God and the universe, but we are MADE righteous before God by the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Protestantism has already returned to Rome, by the selling out of the truth of Justification before God by faith alone. This is Roman Catholic doctrine and opposed to the Reformation teaching of Justification. This is another gospel, and not according to the Bible. Here is a quote from Martin Luthers "Commentary on Galatians" "We conclude therefore, that we are justified neither by our own works and merits before grace or after, nor by our cross and affliction, nor yet by the law, but by faith only in Christ." Page 183 Patti, you did a great job of declaring the Reformation Teaching of Justification by faith alone before God. Truly happy that not everyone believes the Roman Catholic Doctrine. Rayna | ||
| Rayna |
"For as long as I live in the flesh, sin is truly in me. But because I am covered under the shadow of Christ's wings,.........God covereth and pardoneth the remnant of sin in me; that is to say, because of that faith wherewith I begin to lay hold upon Christ, he accepteth my imperfect righteousness even for perfect righteousness, and counteth my sin or no sin, which nothwithstanding is sin indeed." "So we shroud ourseles under the covering of Christ's flesh, who is our cloudy pillar for the day, and our pillar of fire for the night. Exod. 13: 21, lest God should see our sin. And although we see it, and for the same do feel the terrors of conscience, yet flying unto Christ our mediator and reconciler we are sure and safe: for as all things are in him, so through him we have all things, who also doth supply whatsoever is wanting in us. When we believe this, God winketh at the remnants of sin yet sticking in our flesh, and so covereth them, as if they were no sin. Because saith he, thou believest in my Son, although thou have many sins, yet notwithstanding they shall be forgiven thee, until thou be clean delivered from them by death." Commentary on Galatians by Martin Luther Page 225,226. We are only declared righteous before God because of the imputation of Christ's righteousness in heaven and the non-imputation of our sins. We will always be sinners in this life because of our sinful nature. We will continally fall short. This is speaking in the matter of justification by faith alone, the Reformation doctrine. | ||
| Rayna |
.."Christian righteousness consisteth in these two things; namely, in faith which giveth glory unto god, and in God's imputation. for faith is weak.. and therefore God's imputation must needs be joined withal; that is to say, that God willl not lay to our charge the remnant of sin, that he will not punish it, nor condemn us for it; ;but will cover it and will freely forive it, as though it were nothing at all; not for our sake, neither for our worthiness and work, but for Jesus Christ's sake in whom we believe." "Thus a Christian man is both righteous and a sinner, holy and profane, an ememy of God and yet a child of God. These contraries no sophisters will admit, for they know no not the true manner of justification. And this was the cause why they constrained men to work well so long, until they sould feel in themselves no sin at all. Whereby they gave occasion to many (which, striving with all their endeavour to be perfectly righteous, could not attain thereunto) to become stark mad; yea and infinite number also of those which were the authors of this devilish opinion, at the hour of death were driven unto desperation. Which thing had happened unto me also, if Christ had not mercifully looked upon me, and delivered me out of the error." Martin Luthers Commentary on Galatians Page 226 Again this is speaking of the Reformation teaching of Justification by Faith alone before God. Rayna | ||
| Rayna |
.."Christian righteousness consisteth in these two things; namely, in faith which giveth glory unto god, and in God's imputation. for faith is weak.. and therefore God's imputation must needs be joined withal; that is to say, that God willl not lay to our charge the remnant of sin, that he will not punish it, nor condemn us for it; ;but will cover it and will freely forive it, as though it were nothing at all; not for our sake, neither for our worthiness and work, but for Jesus Christ's sake in whom we believe." "Thus a Christian man is both righteous and a sinner, holy and profane, an ememy of God and yet a child of God. These contraries no sophisters will admit, for they know no not the true manner of justification. And this was the cause why they constrained men to work well so long, until they sould feel in themselves no sin at all. Whereby they gave occasion to many (which, striving with all their endeavour to be perfectly righteous, could not attain thereunto) to become stark mad; yea and infinite number also of those which were the authors of this devilish opinion, at the hour of death were driven unto desperation. Which thing had happened unto me also, if Christ had not mercifully looked upon me, and delivered me out of the error." Martin Luthers Commentary on Galatians Page 226 Again this is speaking of the Reformation teaching of Justification by Faith alone before God. Rayna | ||
| Max |
Dear Rayna, You are just simply wrong about me and what I believe. I do not believe that "justification now includes faith and works by love." I do not believe that "we are not just declared righteous before God and the universe, but we are MADE righteous before God by the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives." But praise God anyway. If you are mistaken about me and what I believe, it is because in his mysterious wisdom God has somehow caused you to commit this error. I don't know why, but I pray that he will work on your heart so that you will not judge me so harshly and so falsely accuse me. Praying for you, Rayna, Max of the Cross | ||
| Patti |
Max: I do not believe that "justification now includes faith and works by love." I do not believe that "we are not just declared righteous before God and the universe, but we are MADE righteous before God by the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives." Patti: Then just WHAT do you believe, Max? It is painfully obvious that you do not believe in the Pauline and reformational Gospel, that our salvation is totally dependent on being DECLARED righteous through our faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ for us ALONE. | ||
| Rayna |
Here is what I believe, the Reformation teaching of Justification by faith alone before God in Heaven. God in His great mercy and kindness to lost sinners, has provided the sacrificial lamb for us that we may claim Jesus as our Saviour, receive forgiveness of all our sins, past, present and future, and complete righteousness OF FAITH, perfect and unblemished that we may accept Jesus BY FAITH as our substitute before Him, and God accounts us righteous. We believe God's word that he has provided the way of salvation for us. A righteousness which we cannot see, but a RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS OF FATIH. This is the righteousness by which we are justified before God. It is complete, perfect, finished!!! We are only accepted before God by this righteousness of faith as long as we live on this earth as we will always be sinners because of our inherited sinful nature from Adam. God does not impute our sins to us but we are forgiven because of our faith in Jesus. We are only declared righteous before God always because of our faith in His word. When you include the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives as PART of this RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH by which we are JUSTIFIED before God, then it follows that, in my opinion, you believe that we are justified before God AT THE BEGINNING OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE BY THE IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS, BUT THEN WE ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS BY THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THIS LIFE BEFORE GOD. And the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives makes us holy, sinless and righteous at times in this life. I can't figure out how you can tell which works are sinless and those that are not. You say nothing about the non-imputation of sin in this life and that the sinful nature pollutes all we do, but you speak of BEING MADE RIGHTEOUS in this life, by the work of the Holy Spirit. i KNOW YOU MENTIONED IN ONE OF YOUR POSTS, THAT THE GIVING OF A CUP OF COLD WATER TO A THIRSTY PERSON IS SINLESS BECAUSE IT IS DONE BY THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THIS LIFE. I SAY, THAT THIS ACT IS PERMEATED WITH THE SINFUL NATURE BUT GOD DOES NOT IMPUTE THIS SIN UNTO US. WE ARE NOT MADE SINLESS IN THIS LIFE BY THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. This is not the Reformation teaching of righteousness by faith. It is Roman Catholicism teaching of justification before God. It is another gospel. It is not the gospel that was revealed to Paul and of which he preached. Is this what you believe? If not, please let us know, so we can understand. | ||
| Maryann |
Patti....Rayna, Can't you see what's happening??! Read this parable again, please! Then think about what you are saying, please! "Some of us are in the same Bible trying to read together, yet on different pages. Picture this, I live in a house on top of a mountain and you are visiting me. We are in the den watching a movie and need to stretch our legs. I go to my favorite spot on the back patio overlooking a rugged canyon and dark angry storm clouds are sinking towards the canyon. I just love a storm and all the sensations that go with it as long as I stay inside. I go back in the den and wait for you. You went out on the front patio overlooking a long gentle valley with a large creek tumbling to the valley floor. You really like the view with various flowers and huge pines in the distance. Today you could stay out there for ever as the sky is clear while the sun is sinking in the sky promising a beautiful sunset. Finally you come in the den. You say, "let's forget the movie and go watch the sunset. It is so beautiful out there, the movie can wait." I look at you and say, "are you crazy?????! It's really dark and angry looking out there and I don't know what you are looking but I'm staying in the house, 'cause I'm NOT getting wet!" You say, "me crazy!!! You're the crazy one! The most beautiful sunset is fixing to happen and you don't want to see it?!" We can fight all evening about who is right OR gently take each other by the hand and show each other that we are in the same house looking at two different views of the same thing. This is what I see happening here. Some are looking at the correct view of us being totally nasty, wretched sinners being perfect in God's sight THROUGH His Son. Some are looking at the correct view of an individual that, being a totally nasty, wretched sinner, begins to grow in grace. This individual can NEVER do anything to gain an iota of salvation with his actions. BUT, this indivudual begins to bear, "fruits of the Spirit," NOT to be saved but BECAUSE he is saved. These "fruits" are to be becons to the world that Christ "CAN CHANGE LIVES!" Upward and onward.......Maryann | ||
| Rayna |
Here is it put simply! Sinners are justified before God now and forever only by a righteousness of faith alone. The only works it includes are the works of God for us in Jesus. God Himself provided His acceptance of the sinner only by faith in Jesus. This is the truth of the doctrine of Justication before God by faith alone without works, or love or any such thing. Definitely SDA and Protestants have returned to Rome in this belief. Adding anything to this truth makes it Roman Catholic teaching. I want others to know this truth as it is the gospel that shall be preached to all the world. It is understood by those that have wounded consciences and have tried to live without sin. Like Martin Luther said, Trying to live without any sin whatsoever to be righteous before God will lead one to desperation. I have been there and done that. I am so happy for this wonderful truth that has been revealed to me in Jesus. Others may believe what they want, but I can accept no other gospel teaching. | ||
| Max |
Dear Rayna, Again you are simply mistaken. I do not believe "WE ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS BY THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THIS LIFE BEFORE GOD." I do not believe, "the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives makes us holy, sinless and righteous at times in this life." I do not attempt to "tell which works are sinless and those that are not." You are mistaken in asserting that I "say nothing about the non-imputation of sin in this life and that the sinful nature pollutes all we do." You are also mistaken in charging that I "say nothing about the non-imputation of sin in this life and that the sinful nature pollutes all we do, but you speak of BEING MADE RIGHTEOUS in this life, by the work of the Holy Spirit." I never posted "THAT THE GIVING OF A CUP OF COLD WATER TO A THIRSTY PERSON IS SINLESS BECAUSE IT IS DONE BY THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THIS LIFE." But I still praise God for you and your efforts to learn the truth. Blessings, Max of the Cross | ||
| Patti |
Still, Max, you nave never answered either of these questions: 1. Have you stopped sinning yet? 2. Just what do you believe about salvation, ie the relationship between justification, sanctification, etc.? | ||
| Max |
Dear Patti, Again you are simply mistaken. I have answered the question, "Have you stopped sinning yet?" I haven't answered it with a yes or a no, because not all questions can be answered with a yes or a no. Here, for example, is a question: "Have you stopped cheating on your husband yet?" Can you answer that question with a yes or a no? As far as your second question is concerned, I am glad that God has answered my prayer and that instead of you telling me what I believe, you are now asking! Praise God! Max of the Cross. | ||
| Patti |
Max: Again you are simply mistaken. I have answered the question, "Have you stopped sinning yet?" I haven't answered it with a yes or a no, because not all questions can be answered with a yes or a no. Patti: Not good enough. If one claims that we can conquer our sinful natures, then it is an extremely valid question to ask of one has done so yet. Just like you wouldn't want to take swimming lessons from someone who could not swim. Max: As far as your second question is concerned, I am glad that God has answered my prayer and that instead of you telling me what I believe, you are now asking! Patti: You have had ample opportunity. Instead of merely sitting in judgment on our words, you could have stated your beliefs directly and succinctly many posts ago. So I am still awaiting the answer to both questions. | ||
| Max |
Dear Patti, Thanks for allowing me to point out that I have: Never claimed "that we can conquer our sinful natures." Nor have ever sat "in judgment on our [yours and Rayna's] words." May God bless you while you wait, Max of the Cross | ||
| Patti |
I take that as an indication that you will not answer me. Kinda brings an abrupt end to a conversation, doesn't it? Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Max |
Dear Patti, The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. Max of the Cross | ||
| Rayna |
This is my testimony. I have peace with God through the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no condemnation for me as I am in Christ Jesus. I am covered under the ample heaven of His mercy and forgiveness. My salvation is a free gift of God in Jesus because I believe that He gave His Son for me and He is at God's right hand interceding as my substitute. He is sinless, perfect and righteous. My faith in God's word unites me to Jesus and he takes all my sin and gives me all his righteousness. Faith is the wedding ring that unites me to Jesus. I am wretched but he takes me and covers us with His love. Jesus given to the sinner is the most wonderful gift God could have given us, because in Him we are accepted of God. Our sins are not imputed to us, but the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to us. God's love and mercy shown to me in Jesus motivates me to serve him. I will always be a sinner in this life falling short evn failing at times, but I rest in His love and rejoice in this truth. My testimony will continually be of God and Jesus and their wonderful mercy shown to me. | ||
| Max |
Sorry Patti, But I misssed denying and refuting one of your accusations: ^^It is painfully obvious that you do not believe in the Pauline and reformational Gospel, that our salvation is totally dependent on being DECLARED righteous through our faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ for us ALONE.^^ So consider it denied and refuted. I DO "believe in the Pauline and reformational Gospel, that our salvation is totally dependent on being DECLARED righteous through our faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ for us ALONE." I need to point out, though, that I did not get this from you and your postings. I have believed this for thirty years. I have studied Roman Catholic Theology on the graduate level, as well as Reformation theology. I did a master's thesis on the ecumenical movement of Vatican II. I know the differences and I have always been on the side of Luther. My opinion is, though, from reading your posts that you don't really understand his thought in the context of his times, especially on the subject of grace. But I don't know you well, and so I grant that I could be missing something. As for the Pauline gospel, I really don't think my replying to your questions in any depth would be helpful to this website. Bless you always, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Thank you, Rayna, For that beautiful testimony. I believe you are sincere and that you truly love the Lord. Blessings always, Max of the Cross | ||
| Rayna |
Well, I was just looking at a site on the www about the: Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation in Augsburg on Ocotber 31,1999 where they signed a historical joint declaration on the doctrine of justification. "They state that they are now able to articulate a common understanding of our justification by God's grace thru faith in Christ." The point here being the word "articulate". Catholics believe the word "grace" means being made righteous by the work of the Holy Spirit in the life. So in this context, when you look at the word "grace" it includes works in the life of the believer. "Justified by God's grace" (the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer), "through faith". Far from the teaching of the Reformers and the Pauline Doctrine of Being justified before God by faith ALONE!! Just a twist in the wording to try and compromise our faith. But it is not acceptable. It is not Biblical!!! Grace is the unmerited favor of God toward sinners in the gift of Jesus to us. There is no merit on our part or reason that God should provide the free gift of salvation to us in Jesus. Grace is not something infused in the believer. It means that through the imputed righteousness of faith we are declared righteous. What people resort to, to destroy the truth of the gospel of justification by faith alone. I It is on the WWW, so look it up. |
